 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And a Happy Virtual Signalling Day to you.
If I was so concerned about carbon emissions perhaps I just wouldn't go skiing. Having said that I'm just having a tea then heading off to Hemel for a practice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lol
Im off skiing. It's ok honey, I'll plant a tree sapling when I get home.
lol
If you cared, you would not go.
If you cared & still go, then you are a hypocrite.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Are those Imperial mpg or US mpg?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@powdernomad, Interesting. I do ski, I do drive, I am concerned about reducing emissions, I have cut my flying down to almost zero including refusing to fly for work - this nice little app is useful.
@king key, Er … it’s ‘virtue signalling’ - only this isn’t, since it helps people analyse their impact.
@Gored, Er … this kind of app helps you be aware of impact - it’s flawed thinking to think ‘small actions are small so we shouldn’t do any of them…’. We should. They add up. We risk doing nothing and then really reaping the whirlwind. Literally.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Felt like maths homework not a calculator
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@valais2, likewise. If I had to fly to ski, I think I'd have trouble justifying it. My last 7 trips have been by train.
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I tried to minimise flying this season … but as it was a big ski season for me my CO2 impact was high. I did pay to offset it to somewhat assuage my conscience.
I drove twice since I did successive resorts and that reduced impact but, unfortunately, the train option wasn’t viable although I would have taken it if it were possible.
I am very conflicted and do feel somewhat a hypocrite so try and avoid the discussion (being very honest here).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Blackblade, ...and that honesty is SO important. We are travelling as a family of four to see friends in Amsterdam in May, and it woudl be SO much easier, and cheaper, to fly. We are going by train. Should be fun.
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@valais2, I do wish the train system was good enough for it not to seem like an additional chore to use it rather than fly. Generally speaking getting onto a train is just so much easier than a plane and so I much prefer it. But the major issues are the additional cost, the additional time, and often the additional complexity. If the network and service offering were to improve then there would not be such an issue and usage would no doubt improve hugely. Respect to you for going that extra mile.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Gored, Er … this kind of app helps you be aware of impact - it’s flawed thinking to think ‘small actions are small so we shouldn’t do any of them…’. We should. They add up. We risk doing nothing and then really reaping the whirlwind. Literally. |
So at what point do you care enough not to participate?
Here is mine.
and I will not stop doing what I enjoy because of co2.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
I did pay to offset it to somewhat assuage my conscience.
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lol
What do you think is done with the cash?
trousered more than likely.
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| Gored wrote: |
| valais2 wrote: |
@Gored, Er … this kind of app helps you be aware of impact - it’s flawed thinking to think ‘small actions are small so we shouldn’t do any of them…’. We should. They add up. We risk doing nothing and then really reaping the whirlwind. Literally. |
So at what point do you care enough not to participate?
Here is mine.
and I will not stop doing what I enjoy because of co2. |
Do you have any care at all about your impact on the planet? It sounds like you don't but I would be surprised if anyone really felt like that.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Legend., @valais2, @sugarmoma666,
& what about all the mature co2 eating trees that were cut down so you can enjoy hurtling down a tree lined slope?
If you are going to pay to offset flying or think travelling by other means makes you warm & fuzzy, you are deluded.
More damage is done by the loss of trees than a 2hr return flight.
500kg of Co2 by flying.. about 20 mature trees. You know, the ones cut down, so you have a ski track to slide on
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's ironic and hypocritical really but I bet the last time I ride powder, it will be out of a heli.
But really if you're skiing groomers and using lifts, you have a collective share in a massive carbon footprint. The amount of fuel that infrastructure uses is frightening.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Gored wrote: |
@Legend., @valais2, @sugarmoma666,
& what about all the mature co2 eating trees that were cut down so you can enjoy hurtling down a tree lined slope?
If you are going to pay to offset flying or think travelling by other means makes you warm & fuzzy, you are deluded.
More damage is done by the loss of trees than a 2hr return flight.
500kg of Co2 by flying.. about 20 mature trees. You know, the ones cut down, so you have a ski track to slide on |
No no, I am the worst of us. Too ignorant to properly understand the impact all the activities in my life actually have. And continue to do them almost regardless of the knowledge I have of my ignorance! I understand to a degree but I have no read, investigated, tallied up the issues or really considered alternatives. What a prick!
I don't particularly like being like this but do not have the time, energy, conscious or desire to change it at present. I imagine there quite a number of people who are similar..
So my point to you was more do you actively not care and are happy with it all in knowledge of the damage?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Gored,
???
& what about all the mature co2 eating trees that were cut down so you can enjoy hurtling down a tree lined slope?
16 Feb 24:
In 2021, the EU had an estimated 160 million hectares of forests (excluding other wooded land); in relative terms, this means that forests covered 39 % of the EU land area. This represents an increase of about 8 million hectares or 5.3 % since 2000 and 2.5 million hectares or 1.6 % since 2010.
PS
I cut down a LOT of mature trees every year, since we manage a commercial wood. Cutting down trees is fine in one place as long as the wood is then used responsibly and the accompanying planting scheme increases the overall number.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@hang11, take your point but also note the energy tends to be electricity, which increasingly is coming from renewables. Agree that piste bashers like drinking diesel.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Gored wrote: |
| valais2 wrote: |
@Gored, Er … this kind of app helps you be aware of impact - it’s flawed thinking to think ‘small actions are small so we shouldn’t do any of them…’. We should. They add up. We risk doing nothing and then really reaping the whirlwind. Literally. |
So at what point do you care enough not to participate?
Here is mine.
and I will not stop doing what I enjoy because of co2. |
You seem to care a lot about this for someone who says they don't care.
If you don't care, you can always just ignore the post..... Feels like you're as keen at ramming your opinion down people's throats as some people are about emissions etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@valais2, does depend where you are. I live somewhere with a massive amount of hydro generation but most of the ski field power comes from diesel generators. Hooking remote ski areas up to national grids isn’t that easy, and comes with a load of other impacts to the environment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@hang11, goodness that’s grim…
Better situation these days on Nordic countries, France and CH
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @Blackblade, ...and that honesty is SO important. We are travelling as a family of four to see friends in Amsterdam in May, and it woudl be SO much easier, and cheaper, to fly. We are going by train. Should be fun. |
Well done you. I think, as you said, that if we all do a little something then that does make a difference. I know I’m, at some level, a hypocrite but I do care and I do want to at least try to improve.
@Gored You may be right, the money I paid to offset my emissions might have been ‘trousered’. However, I hope not and I suspect that it probably isn’t. It’s easy to be a cynic but, if we all do that, then nothing changes and the world continues heating up with all the concommitant problems that creates. At my age I could easily say that I’m probably not going to be personally affected and can likely ski and live my life unaltered; but what about my, and other people’s, children ? It would be fundamentally immoral to not at least try to improve matters.
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| Gored wrote: |
lol
Im off skiing. It's ok honey, I'll plant a tree sapling when I get home.
lol
If you cared, you would not go.
If you cared & still go, then you are a hypocrite. |
Ah, the all or nothing approach, for people not smart enough to grasp the concept of compromise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely if one is concerned about emissions then the only moral course of action is to cease entirely any non essential activity that causes emissions. Skiing and especially travelling to ski is a textbook example of frivolity being an activity that is carried out entirely for pleasure and by an exceptionally privileged strata of the global population. Whether you travel by train or private jet your emissions are infinitely more than a person who does not carry out that activity - it is simply a matter of degree.
Personally, I am not concerned about CO2 emissions so enjoy all kinds of travel with a clear conscience.
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@obmij,
'...Personally, I am not concerned about CO2 emissions so enjoy all kinds of travel with a clear conscience...'
Blimey....really? There's plenty of tangible effects and robust evidence which says that maintaining a clear conscience might be quite hard....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Ah, the all or nothing approach, for people not smart enough to grasp the concept of compromise. |
This
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
Ah, the all or nothing approach, for people not smart enough to grasp the concept of compromise. |
What a load of nonsense. If you ski you aren't doing any favours for the planet. If I recall you flew to Japan to ski? Europe not far enough? Or maybe you planted 1000 trees in the meantime?
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| Gored wrote: |
lol
Im off skiing. It's ok honey, I'll plant a tree sapling when I get home.
lol
If you cared, you would not go.
If you cared & still go, then you are a hypocrite. |
Your argument can be reduced, ad absurdio, to ...
"I'm alive. It's ok honey, I'll plant a tree sapling to offset my breathing."
All human activity results in the production of CO2; some more and some rather less. It is also true that, in geological time past, the CO2 level in the world was massively higher than currently. So, clearly, the world won't end as a result of CO2 excess ... but, if it goes too high, it will result in human deaths, species extinctions and many other very undesirable effects.
As such, it behoves us all to try to reduce/offset/mitigate our activities; if we all think about how we can bring our respective carbon footprints down a little then that actually results in very significant change overall.
So, yes, I'm a hypocrite in espousing this since I choose to go skiing which is an activity that I don't HAVE to do. On the other hand, I don't drive a car to work, my house is very well insulated and I cycle a lot. Perhaps I'm a mug but I subscribe to Wren and, based on all my activities, pay them monthly to offset my emissions. I also, separately, opt to pay to offset any flights. I might be wasting this money but, you know, if I'm lucky and affluent enough to afford to go skiing a lot then I can afford this and I think it probably isn't wasted. If I do nothing then definitely I'm not helping ... if I at least try to do something then there's a good chance of some improvement.
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You know it makes sense.
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| king key wrote: |
| If you ski you aren't doing any favours for the planet. |
This is the dilemma faced by nearly all travel, but I'd say especially skiing. When you travel to a resort and look at all the hordes who have flown, driven, trained etc to get there, all the gear they've hauled from the far east, all the lift infrastructure and concrete, all the provisions that have to be transported (using diesel trucks) etc etc. It's absolutely mind boggling.
Going by train is still tansportation. Buying an electric car is still buying a car that has to be manufactured and powered. Nobody should be smug about their carbon footprint when they are a skier. I'm not saying don't go, I am saying please don't kid yourself or try and kid others that you are somehow "doing your bit" cos you got on a train.
Worst hypocrites of all are Protect Our Winters - notice it's not 'your' winter. Them and their ambassadors seem to have the biggest carbon footprints of all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| obmij wrote: |
| Surely if one is concerned about emissions then the only moral course of action is to cease entirely any non essential activity that causes emissions. Skiing and especially travelling to ski is a textbook example of frivolity being an activity that is carried out entirely for pleasure and by an exceptionally privileged strata of the global population. Whether you travel by train or private jet your emissions are infinitely more than a person who does not carry out that activity - it is simply a matter of degree. |
This is nonsense. Reframed you could state "... Living in a brick-built house, driving a car, having central heating, running water and sewage are textbook examples of frivolity ...". You could live in a thatched hut and walk five miles to get water from the nearest river/stream. It's just a case of what you determine is essential.
| obmij wrote: |
| Personally, I am not concerned about CO2 emissions so enjoy all kinds of travel with a clear conscience. |
Big statement. Are you not concerned;
a. Because you don't believe it impacts the earth's climate or
b. Because you don't think it will impact you in your lifetime
a makes you a bit of an idiot given the data now available to prove that it does
b makes you a narcissist who doesn't care about future generations
Neither is a good look I'd suggest. Sure, neither is being a hypocrite which most of us here have owned up to but probably better than being either an idiot or a narcissist. Sorry to be so blunt but ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Blackblade, I'm a fully paid-up hypocrite. Not much better than being unconcerned for my fellow human beings, frankly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| king key wrote: |
| If you ski you aren't doing any favours for the planet. |
Stupid statement; how do you know what other activities the skier is doing to reduce their impact ? Globally, skiing is a tiny pinprick; it makes not the slightest difference against the big sources of CO2. So, yes, you can do your bit and be a skier. Sure, you could do more but that's not an argument to support doing nothing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Blackblade, I'm a fully paid-up hypocrite. Not much better than being unconcerned for my fellow human beings, frankly. |
Join the club 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The all or nothing approach is an excellent way of dealing with matters of conscience.
If you find the farming of animals for food abhorrent and cruel then 'doing your bit' to reduce their suffering by only eating chops twice a week doesn't really cut it.
The destruction of the planet - or at least the rendering of it unfit for human habitation would seem to be quite a big deal. If you believe that this is caused by CO2 emissions it must take some serious mental gymnastics to enable you to emit any unnecessary carbon emissions at all..it is literally a matter of life and death! Reducing emissions is akin to deliberately running someone over - but not as much as you could have!
Fortunately I am not concerned about CO2 emissions. Very fortunately actually - I burn an average of 14 metric tonnes of fuel oil per 24 hours at work.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Discussions of how much we care about the size of our carbon footprint aside, the basic maths of the calculator is total dangly bits.
As an example, it uses the broad categories "short haul", "medium haul" and "long haul" for flights. A short haul return flight scores 0.33 tons (presumably US...), while a medium haul return flight scores 0.89 and a long haul return flight scores 1.92 - but there is no definition for any of these, there is no use of actual distances never mind actual emissions, and even better a long haul flight jumps to 4.62 tons if I change it from Economy to First Class. In what way does sitting in a bigger seat and getting free drinks cause the emissions of the aircraft to increase, and how does that impact only the person sat in First Class rather than being a cost borne equally by every person on the aircraft? Does the emission total go down considerably if every first class seat is empty?
Now consider that a flight from New York to Munich is long haul (4000 miles), but so is Buenos Aires to Munich (7150 miles), or Wellington to Munich (11500 miles). Clearly they're not all the same, so why the randomly plucked out of the air figure of 1.92 tons of CO2?
Is Paris to Geneva short haul? How about London to Geneva? Manchester to Geneva? Glasgow to Geneva? IATA define "short haul" to be less than 3 hours flight time, in which case Frankfurt to Innsbruck (231 miles) has the same quoted CO2 figure as Glasgow to Innsbruck (893 miles) despite being almost 4 times the distance.
According to https://lufthansa.compensaid.com/ which would like to relieve me of cash to compensate for the carbon emissions of my return flight from LHR to MUC in December, the actual emissions were 105Kg in each direction, for which it would suggest that I pay €70.56 to offset that immediately, or €1.72 to do it over 10 years. That 210Kg is 0.23 US tons, so the 0.33 tons the calculator is using is out by 44%...
Don't even start on the cost of the resort - powered by coal-fired generation, or by nuclear power, or by a local hydro scheme, it's still 4.63 tons for the first day, but only 4.72 for a 6 day trip, and 7.56 for a 180 day season. Whatever that is assuming, it's not the cost of running the snowmaking and lift infrastructure.
The rest of it is just as bad - a 900 mile drive each way (UK-Austria and back) in a diesel car at 45mpg with 3 passengers comes up at 0.23 tons. Remove the passengers and there are no emissions at all - it apparently assumes that the driver is a passenger and the car goes nowhere if it is empty, but the level of input checking here is lower than that implemented by a school IT student. My car is quoted at 109g/Km of CO2, so 900 miles each way =~ 2900 Km, which my calculator tells me is 316Kg, or 0.35 US tons. With 3 passengers (i.e. 4 people in the car), that's 0.09 tonnes per person - a long way from 0.23 as produced by this calculator, even if that's working off 3 people in the car rather than 4.
Summary - if you're going to produce a calculator, the one thing it needs to be is credible. And this one is not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
| king key wrote: |
| If you ski you aren't doing any favours for the planet. |
Stupid statement; how do you know what other activities the skier is doing to reduce their impact ? Globally, skiing is a tiny pinprick; it makes not the slightest difference against the big sources of CO2. So, yes, you can do your bit and be a skier. Sure, you could do more but that's not an argument to support doing nothing. |
Sure, you carry on virtual signalling all day if it clears your conscience. I would bet precious few on here (including me) do little to solve the issue, and nor ever really will.......apart from the odd forum or Twitter comment.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 23-04-24 18:14; edited 1 time in total
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| king key wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
Ah, the all or nothing approach, for people not smart enough to grasp the concept of compromise. |
What a load of nonsense. If you ski you aren't doing any favours for the planet. If I recall you flew to Japan to ski? Europe not far enough? Or maybe you planted 1000 trees in the meantime? |
Thank you for illustrating my point  Yes I flew to Japan to ski, I also have a fairly thirsty car and am a keen motorsport fan.
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So hardly saving the planet, not that I'm criticising your choices, I'm just trying to see your version of compromise. My own vehicle is both turbo charger and supercharged with more than a few ponies under the hood. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Avabrunch, …just to correct the record, the ‘our’ in POW is not referring to ownership of winters by the professional skiing community but is trying to instill a sense of the Common Good - which tangibly has declined:
See
https://daily.jstor.org/robert-reich-interview/
…Reich makes a persuasive case that the shift toward greed and power and away from the common good has been hugely detrimental to our society…
And the Our in POW refers to All Our winters - yours, mine, hers, his and the flora and fauna’s winters too. A winter in common, the turning of the seasons upon which we all rely.
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POW lost any credibility when they have ambassadors using helicopters for their wedding photos. Also Jeremy Jones taking trips to Europe and Canada when he already lives somewhere with world class skiing. Do as we say, not as we do.
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FAQ
