Kleber another "quieter" brand with good reputation, owned by Michelin too
About 20 years ago I had some Kleber Quadraxer all-season tyres on an Octavia - they were very good, and I'd imagine things have progressed a lot since then.
I had CC2 on my previous RWD Merc and they were excellent even in very heavy snow, particularly impressive given the car was not exactly snow-friendly.
Haven't selected anything for the current AWD Merc, but I did swap the summer runflats for normal tyres and it was night and day in terms of ride quality and noise levels.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Casa wrote:
As far as I’m aware.
From 1st November 2025 in France M&S tyres are no longer legal in resorts.
The requirement is winter 3MPSF tyres, AND chains or socks, but if in a chain only area socks are not legal.
This will be the first year of it being enforced.
Does anyone know if car hire companies at GVA etc are up to speed on this?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
By heck, fast service from Mytyres, ordered on Sunday morning, email this morning to say delivery was expected Friday, and it arrived 5 minutes ago.
This link explains it clearly so I believe your assertion is a bit inaccurate. Winter tyres OR chains or socks. There is no mention that socks are not legal. They state “or hold removable anti-skid devices to equip “at least 2-wheel drive” (metal snow chains recommended for frequent use of your vehicle in these areas, textile snow socks for occasional use);”
After all it is free
After all it is free
Good find. My info was taken from a resort website. Clearly it was t correctly
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Good to have that clarified. I was surprised to see the suggestion that socks were no longer allowed.
However, whilst everyone must have winter tyres OR chains or socks (as the signs on some Italian motorways, e.g. from Turin up to the north have indicated for years) it is the case that when it's very snowy, especially on busy transfer days, the police will sometimes not allow you to continue up the hill with putting on chains or snow socks, no matter what symbols you have on your tyres. 4WD vehicles normally excepted - but even they can be required to put chains on if their tyres are deemed inadequate (e.g.bald!)
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Torque wrenches CAN be used for loosening but never beyond the click or calibrated scale.
But I would never do it.
I was taught a way of removing nuts by a mechanic and it has only failed once, sort of.
It does need a right angle brace, for example contemporary VW Audi etc brace.
Put brace on nut firmly with arm parallel to ground.
Put one foot on brace.
Grasp roof and bring full weight onto brace - ie lift body completely off ground so it’s supported on brace.
Bounce whilst holding roof bar/channel etc.
It will come undone.
Now, the ‘sort of’.
Only time this has (sort of) failed was with a person stranded up a mountain and with her car where I could get all four nuts off…no problem…that bit went well using the above technique. But the wheel was electrolytically stuck to the hub. This was in Switzerland, on a steep hill, with an alloy wheel and steel hub, with much salt water through water to aid conductivity and speed reaction. After much tugging, curses and kicking the tyre, I had to admit defeat and put the nuts back in….
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@valais2, if wheel stuck put the nuts back on loosely and lower the jack. The cars weight as it lowers to the ground will break the wheel/hub joint.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
But the wheel was electrolytically stuck to the hub. This was in Switzerland, on a steep hill, with an alloy wheel and steel hub
It does happen, with some types more prevalent than other manufacturers.
Galvanic corrosion, usually of the spigot/bore interface, with many volvo historically affected. If that dimension set is particularly fine (it centres the wheels to ensure concentric running) then the corrosion can offer significant resistance to removal. Desirable to have it accurate, of course, but problematic if not maintained.
Common practice to use a grease with sacrificial component nickel/copper/zinc oxide etc in the spigot site to firstly avoid moisture ingress, secondly provide mitigation to the corrosive effect by being saturated in electrolyte solution.
As @DJL, notes, loose wheel bolts and loaded joint can release, the really stuck occurrence moving vehicle back and forth then sharp brake application, or rocking it side to side may get it to release.
Sometimes you see a "mechanic" underneath beating on the rim to get it to release, on the most vulnerable part of an alloy wheel
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@DJL, good recommendation - we didn’t try that and that’s gone into the memory as a future technique …
Ski3 also good recommendations. Also now in memory as future technique.
And re sacrificial grease, absolutely. When switching from summer to winter I always clean the hubs and rear of wheels (both those coming off and those going on) and put copper grease around the raise lip around the bearing area - indeed the spigot/bore interface - (obviously not all over the hub surface).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
At an industry show for equipment recently, there were a few solutions for power tool driven "scrubbies" to clean the hub face in servicing. Seems a pragmatic approach at least to speeding this up in providing diligent service, while reducing labour etc.
Comprising of something like a kitchen scrubby material for non damaging effective cleanup.
The effect is also quite well known in bicycle frame seat tubes, aluminium alloy, steel, Carbon etc making surprisingly effective bond within those items if left without maintenance.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The oem wheel braces supplied with my van and car are now bent & twisted due to me applying a bit much welly to loosen wheelnuts
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Something I've found that could be of use to this thread while changing wheels or fitting chains etc in darkness.
https://nightsearcher.co.uk/products/i-spector-flex extremely high performing and flexible use item. Sufficient magnetic power to place on car bodywork, while giving wide beam illumination to the area generally. Its far more impressive than anything I've previously use .... also for anything generally in household etc.
Note:- they sell a kit, with other items to adap the torch that looks like this one, it doesn't include this very specific side and end beam combination thats so very useful in this item.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
While we’re discussing chain-fitting accessories, as well as a torch / head torch, I also pack a carpet square to kneel on; a pair of thin gloves; and two plastic bags to put each of the dirty chains back into (to keep them separate). Also keep your outdoor boots/shoes handy and separate from driving shoes.
Last season, we also make use of a retractable snow brush to remove the snow that accumulated while putting the chains on, and used the folding shovel to clear out the snow in front of the car. I had to bite my tongue when the vehicle’s owner stood looking blankly at the chain set in their hands. “You did a test run of putting them on at home, right? Because from the look of them, they need some adjustment to the links to fit your wheel size.” …….
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 5-12-25 12:38; edited 3 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Taken the plunge and bought a second set of wheels for winter use as we'll be using the car (Merc GLC) to do skiing trips from the UK to alps (mostly Austria) from now on. I've read this thread and absorbed lots of useful info. my second set of alloys are the same as the summer set which are staggered 21" which i know limits tyre options, i think i'm going to go with Conti Winter contact 8s (3PMSF) and then throw some snow socks in the boot just in case which should comply with Germany/Austria/Switzerland rules, I might as well use the winter set in the UK for 4 or 5 months of the year too. all sound reasonable?
My only issue with snow socks was they were awkward to fit with limited arch clearance, so shouldn't be a problem with a 4x4. They worked incredibly well, just remove them as soon as the roads black again.
To be honest with 4x4 and winter tyres (even big wide ones) the chances of you having to fit them is slim.
Your usage plan is same as mine and makes total sense. Prolongs the life span of both and when you change cars you'll get decent money selling on the winters.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mr_frosty wrote:
Taken the plunge and bought a second set of wheels for winter use as we'll be using the car (Merc GLC) to do skiing trips from the UK to alps (mostly Austria) from now on. I've read this thread and absorbed lots of useful info. my second set of alloys are the same as the summer set which are staggered 21" which i know limits tyre options, i think i'm going to go with Conti Winter contact 8s (3PMSF) and then throw some snow socks in the boot just in case which should comply with Germany/Austria/Switzerland rules, I might as well use the winter set in the UK for 4 or 5 months of the year too. all sound reasonable?
Totally reasonable, ran winters in UK for many years, moved to cclimate 3s now as tech has improved and I can just run one set of alloys, I still have a spare set that I should get round to selling!
Our Skoda Scout was Haldex equipped and served us very well through about 9 years including many trips to the Alps. Performance on snow was good (with winter tyres). Recommendation for chains (which I never needed) was front wheels.
We changed it in September and this winter we will be testing a Torsen equipped car (Audi A6 Avant), also with winter tyres. Will be interesting to see if I notice any difference. I've got some Autosocks which I fully expect will stay in their packaging.
I probably should notice a difference as the Audi is 40/60 front/rear split in normal driving whereas the Skoda was 100/0 unless the Haldex kicked in.
Theres some interesting comparison around on the topic
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
We’ve just bought a set of K&K Pro snow socks. There have been a number of video test reviews of different socks recently, and these seem to come out ahead on most of them. They’re made in the USA and the company is now selling them in the UK and Europe via Amazon. The budget version (white tread) is £85 and the ‘Pro’ version (which is the one in all the reviews, and has a black tread) is £157. The K&K website has a sizing guide.
Just a tip: the AmazonK&K product page has size names that don’t exactly correspond to the size names on the K&K website (e.g. ‘XL’ versus the K&K ‘XLarge - Pro’). The Amazon page also mixed the budget and ‘Pro’ versions on the order page, so check the price. I contacted K&K and they confirmed the right one to order for our wheel size, and said they’d be sorting this out asap.
The pack includes the socks; a pair of gloves; a wet bag for each sock; and a carrier bag.
Edit: I’ve just swapped my original summer tyres for all-seasons. I’d wanted to go for the Pirelli Cinturato AllSeason SF3, as they’ve been getting consistently high scores in tyre tests. However, for my tyre size, these are on 4-6 week back order, if not longer. So I opted for the GoodYear Vector 4Seasons Gen3 instead, which were in stock. Although they’re certified ‘3 Peaks & Snowflake’, they don’t rate quite as highly on snow but have particularly good wet weather performance, so I’m satisfied with that.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 5-12-25 12:42; edited 6 times in total
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Don't know if I've made the right call but been driving a 4x4 in the Alps for 10 years on All Mountain and never needed or even nearly chains / socks. All Mountain tyres have been perfectly fine. With the newly enforced rules, have bought a set of snow socks from Polar Automotive that will make us legally compliant if we get stopped but no intention of using them unless forced to. Look to do the trick and received quickly. Maurienne locals telling me more checks are expected to happen
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
alti - dude wrote:
Don't know if I've made the right call but been driving a 4x4 in the Alps for 10 years on All Mountain and never needed or even nearly chains / socks. All Mountain tyres have been perfectly fine. With the newly enforced rules, have bought a set of snow socks from Polar Automotive that will make us legally compliant if we get stopped but no intention of using them unless forced to. Look to do the trick and received quickly. Maurienne locals telling me more checks are expected to happen
Do you mean all season tyres?
On the worst driving days I've experienced in the Alps the local police were stopping all cars in Bourg Saint Maurice (at approx 800m, with 30cm+ of fresh snow) from going up the hill either towards Les Arcs or the other resorts in the Haute Tarentaise. Everyone was being required to fit chains or turnaround, with the exception of 4x4 cars fitted with winter tyres which were allowed through with a cheery 'bon chance'. I made it up to Arc 1800 without much drama, aided by all other cars driving up to the resort had plenty of grip so there was no local chaos. Like you I've got a couple of pairs of snow socks for my all wheel drive car fitted with winter tyres. I'm not expecting to use them, but they are there if I need to fit something as required by the local police or if it's really grim on the final approach to Arc 1800 (the last quarter mile to my apartment is quite steep and has a couple of hairpin bends so carrying momentum isn't possible).
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Yes - have the M&S version and now think you need 3PMSF or snow chains / socks.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@alti - dude, in my limited experience, if the local police are controlling traffic they will look for 3PMSF tyres, which will indicate to them certified winter or all season tyres.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Thanks to this thread, just got out car hire sorted for Geneva to La Plagne in mid-January. Got the chains as well, decided we would be stuffed on a Sunday evening if we were forced to turn around. Worth the extra £40 hire just in case!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just to be clear. The rules require that just to be on the road on those routes, even if it hasn't snowed in weeks, you must have either winter tyres or chains/socks. But there are times when, unless you have 4WD and winter tyres with plenty of life left in them, you might not be allowed up the mountains without fitting chains/socks (not just having them in the boot). It's the in-between days, when people carry on mindlessly up the hill until they don't, when there's real chaos and people get strewn around the road and even folk in 4WDs, or with chains beautifully fitted, will just stay in the traffic, along with everyone else.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Origen, exactly. Gendarmes can and do check tyre tread depth as well: I have seen them do it, and not even with a gauge, just visually (not sure how that works but they check more tyres than i do with their eyes: presumably they eyeball the wear indicators).
Our winter tyres went on last Friday, and note in diary to bump pressures up for a fully laden trip in a few weeks.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
My tyre prep for Yeti 4x4 2.0 tdi almost complete
2 x rear 5.5/5.0 Continental Wintercontacts on steels to tyre depot for installing new Dunlop WinterSports from German supplier now ready to collect - old tyres onto Grom's Polo for Wales
2 x Dunlop Wintersports now down to 7.5 were on front will go into back
Summers off and winters on this weekend
Usual routine but we have luxury of small barn to keep all this stuff in
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I have General Grabber AT 3PMSF tyres on my LR Defender for winter and off-road, and a set of chains. If I can't get up the mountain then no-one can. Last year was at a chalet and there was a very steep slope up to it (people slipped down it if they weren't careful). The LR just went straight up without any problem. Other cars parked at the bottom. Probably wasted my money on the chains...but you never know!
For clarity M&S tyres are no longer allowed in France unless you have chains. 3PMSF are allowed OR chains with any other tyre.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Are all socks ok in France or just auto socks- seem x3 the price?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I’m generally a big fan of having separate summer and winter tyres. However, I’ll be getting a new car either on Friday or Monday, and I currently have two options:
summer tyres (and then I would have to arrange winter tyres myself), or
all-season tyres.
I’m leaning toward choosing all-season tyres because I’m planning to travel to Avoriaz on December 20, and I’m not sure I’ll be able to get an appointment in time to change the tyres.
Do you think all-season tyres combined with snow chains would be sufficient for the drive to Avoriaz? I’m not completely sure, but I believe most of the hairpin turns there are relatively in low altitude.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
turms2 wrote:
I’m generally a big fan of having separate summer and winter tyres. However, I’ll be getting a new car either on Friday or Monday, and I currently have two options:
summer tyres (and then I would have to arrange winter tyres myself), or
all-season tyres.
I’m leaning toward choosing all-season tyres because I’m planning to travel to Avoriaz on December 20, and I’m not sure I’ll be able to get an appointment in time to change the tyres.
Do you think all-season tyres combined with snow chains would be sufficient for the drive to Avoriaz? I’m not completely sure, but I believe most of the hairpin turns there are relatively in low altitude.
If the all seasons have the three peaks on them they would be fine, last year I changed my S &M tyres on my dmax to all seasons with 3peak symbol on, where I had to use 4wd to go up an icy slope in 2024 the all seasons went up the same icy slope without any sign of slipping in 2wd , I was quite surprised how much better grip I had, ( I had slipped over walking down saud slope with croissants just before driving up)
After all it is free
After all it is free
Got all four tyres replaced this weekend with Cross Climate 3 Sports, ready for our trips in January and March. Not really had anytime to test them yet, aside from the fact they seem louder than our e primacys that we had on before. The other half thought the old tyres started to loose grip a bit when it's really wet, so hopefully the new ones improve that and make her feel a bit safer.
It's a bit silly how much more exited I feel for the holidays now! This must be the getting old that people warn you about...
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In addition to letting you get away with summer tyres and socks/chains in mountain areas, the legal minimum tread depth on a winter tyres is the same 1.6mm as for summer tyres in France.
I've been driving on my winters since October 2024 as they hit the 4mm limit in March and they'd be illegal in Austria this season...... I reckon they'd be fine for the off piste bash (apart from not working in snow!)......
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@turms2, winters will always be better than all season. All season will always be better than Summer.
But we are talking percentages and margins here... "sufficient" is a hard thing to define/pin down.
Many moons ago we drove to the Alps in a Peugeot 205 gti with summers on! More than once.
IMO if all season with chains is perfectly fine. And that is what we have when we go to Les Coches a week on Friday.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Last year was at a chalet and there was a very steep slope up to it (people slipped down it if they weren't careful). The LR just went straight up without any problem. Other cars parked at the bottom. Probably wasted my money on the chains...but you never know!
