 Poster: A snowHead
|
At the start of this season I bought a new pair of 23/24 atomic backland 88's and I've already had problems:
-- outing 4: the front binding came loose, took it back to the shop, they said "that's not normal", tighten the screws and sent me on my way. It has since come loose again. I didn't draw witness marks on the screw heads but my assumption is that there is thread damage and it's pulled rather than vibrating loose.
-- outing 5: de-lamination on the front tip rocker, no obvious edge ding.
-- outing 6: (away from home so no option) de-lamination under foot, corresponding scratches starting on the base and running off edge (from outing 3).
My only other data point is my old second hand 15/16 movement apex's. They've been really reliable for me over the last two seasons. The only time they've broken was at the start of last season (Nov) during a crash. I got the tips caught in a cliff, heels popped out the back binding and then i torqued the front binding out splitting open the ski to about half way width ways and 25 cm length ways. I've since glued them back together with epoxy and they've been fine the rest of last season. Given the major repair, I thought I'd invest in some shiny new skis as it felt like only a matter of time before my luck runs out, the repair fails, and i'm left boot-packing a long way.
Now, this leaves me with a few questions: 1) are the movements just incredibly well made and left me with unrealistic expectations of how durable touring skis should be / how unreasonable would i be pushing for a warranty? 2) last time the ski broke before the binding pulled out, is this a chance thing? can i trust the workshop that mounted the bindings? 3) Anyone else having issues with this seasons backlands (the marketing bumf says they're using less resin and glass for environmental reasons this year)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Shops are not supposed to use electric drivers to put on bindings but they do.
Shops are supposed to use jigs to instal bindings but they sometimes don’t.
Atomic usually use Elan to make their skis and they are really excellent (update on that - reminded by Spyderjon below - Atomic manufacture in Bulgaria in part, not Slovenia where Elan are. Apologies for brainfade).
I suspect shop.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 16-01-24 22:30; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@pistehors, welcome to SH's.
Have you been back to the shop since outing 4?
How long is an outing?
How did you choose the shop to buy from, is there any indication they are a bit iffy (reviews, etc)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Hi @Layne and @valais2 thanks for the replies.
Yes i dropped them off again after the 6th outing (i'm calling an outing one day of skiing) to ask for a warranty. I then popped in again a few days later to see how it was going, the shop assistant said they'd emailed atomic but that the shop manager had looked at the skis and thought that the de-lamination was due to shocks and therefore not covered by warranty. Hence the question about if a warranty is reasonable and if the failure mode on the binding indicates poor mounting. How much should i push it before i'm being a bad customer/wasting my time and energy? On one hand, my other touring ski's have held up well to my use case (obvious crash excluded), as have the skis of the people I've skied with. On the other hand, the shop thinks I've been shocking them, and they are scratched near one of the de-lamination sites.
The shop's got 4.3 on google. I choose it cos it's conveniently located and had a good range to choose from. It's a chain, so the quality of work probably varies tech to tech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pistehors wrote: |
| ...On the other hand, the shop thinks I've been shocking them, and they are scratched near one of the de-lamination sites.... |
Um, how would you "shock" skis? I mean: if it's by skiing on them, then that's pretty much what the intended use, isn't it?
If the screws came loos, well as they said "that's not normal". And they should have sorted it out immediately.
Possibly the two things are related, but really that's their problem. Their stuff broke after 6 days use!
If it was the UK I'd expect the shop to sort it out with Atomic and for me to get a new pair, no fuss.
Otherwise consumer protection might be required. Doesn't sound like a shop looking after their customers well to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@pistehors, thanks for the extra info. With "outing" meaning one day that isn't long.
I think by "shocks" they mean some sort of "hard impact" i.e., user error. But it's quite possibly a manufacturing error - see this thread
Personally, what the binding "not normal" thing I would be pushing it pretty hard. As per phil_w's response and the thread above, in the UK it would be down to the retailer to sort.
Let us know how you get on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| valais2 wrote: |
| ........Atomic usually use Elan to make their skis and they are really excellent...... |
 Atomic are the worlds largest ski manufacturer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Personally, I would not care if I was being a ‘bad customer’, and would expect the shop to replace the skis. As they said, the binding coming loose is ‘not normal’ (& the problem has persisted after they tried to fix it) which means it’s either their fault (so they replace) or a manufacturing problem (so they replace & get reimbursed by the manufacturer). If they refused I’d be escalating, if necessary with a threat of legal action, although I’d think it very, very unlikely to come to that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@spyderjon, duh...sorry...brainfade. Yep....sorry...Atomic manufacture partly in Bulgaria not Slovenia....apologies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
would want to see the ski to make comment, delamination happens form many many reasons, impact may or may not be present, as for the bindings sounds like the stripped the screw threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Cheers for the moral support, I'll stick to my guns and hopefully get a good result. It's in France, but still the same procedure i.e. needs to be sorted directly with the shop.
Last night I had a chance to look at a mates 17/18 backland 85's. They are well used, heavy scratching on the bases and dents in the edges but still holding together and skiable. Coupled with the replys up thread, makes me think that more durability can be expected from and atomic ski despite their competitive price point.
Striped threads was also my assumption. I've done a fair bit of wood work and never had screws pull out w/o splitting the wood unless I've over tightened them and stripped the thread. But then again never worked with poplar.
I'll see if I can get some images.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
As others have said, persist with this. I'd be pretty worried about that toepiece pulling out of the ski. That may cause injury or could strand you if it rips out when you are touring. That it loosened as quickly as it did suggests that it is not remotely secure.
Again, as others have said, can't judge the delam without pics. But this is a secondary issue. You had a problem before they started delaminating, which has not been fixed.
I'd push for new skis. They might want to put helicoils in the toes but that (further) screws the resale value as you are putting bigger holes in the skis. Also if they over torqued one set of screws they may have over torqued the others and you just haven't seen the problem yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@pistehors, phone pics uploaded and convert at imgbb.com ... for easy posting
What @gorilla, said. If the shop mounted the bindings, they've likely screwed (see what I did there) them.
Who's the shop?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Personally I am not convinced by the screw thing at all. Did they examine them to ensure the thread was good. My understanding is glue is applied to the screws. You don't say if they did originally but it doesn't sound like they did this time. Not sure doing the same thing and expecting a different result is meant to work.
I did a quick search to see if there are other examples of delaminating atomic backland 88's that might be an indicator of a bad design/batch. Found this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/skiing/comments/13m1lqc/new_skis_delamination_concern/
Hard to tell from the pics on my phone - maybe others can see on a better screen.
I don't know enough about Espace montagne to say if they are good for this sort of thing or not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Sorry - I've just said goodbye to a colleague over lunch and there was rum. But just to get this straight, did they drill and mount your skis without using glue? In addition to what you are observing, I'd be worried about water ingress, if I'm reading that correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Yep, as i understood it no glue was used ever but maybe I have mis-understood could be that they just didn't use epoxy specifically. Since I have had the skis, the screws have only been re-tightend but no extra glue has been added.
Intresting link, I had already searched as i wondered a similar thing but hadn't found that one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@pistehors,
Binding screws = always PVA wood glue as minimum for torque and preventing water ingress
Tightening = hand driver since extreme skill needed using electric driver and mistakes just too easily made
What torque = ratings are ‘too tight’, ‘too loose’ and ‘just right’ and how do you tell? Feel.
Delamination = almost always structural weakness (although salt water from roof racks can do it with metal skis)
I have been tempted to fix dud binding screws with epoxy but always bridled against it. It’s like my shoulder, I avoided a reconstruction for a shoulder separation since the moment I said I was a climber the surgeon said ‘no way’ - ‘…a reconstruction is subject to sudden failure whereas a knackered shoulder will progressively fail and you will know when it’s starting to happen…’.
Likewise with an expoxied screw…nothing….BANG.
BUT
You can use thread-saving inserts, and I have used them very successfully. Essential like rawplugs but for skis. Dedicated drill, and then whack in plastic plug with PVA, and then put normal screw in with PVA. Job done. Properly.
OR
SNOWLI inserts. Same although no whacking, only screwing. Proper job.
https://www.theskierslounge.co.uk/bindings/ski-binding-tools/snoli-brass-insert-for-damaged-ski-binding-holes-9mm-x-1-insert__2488?currency=GBP&chosenAttribute=1302/9/F&gclid=CjwKCAiAkp6tBhB5EiwANTCx1LIwDMQDNXWfP1lGtK_0G8q-Pm8QwKLyaeZ36rvj9oSWibADfZXfShoCYX4QAvD_BwE
If your shop does not know about these then the shop staff are not very………er……good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Glue is for sealing, not for upping torque. No glue = no good, but not the problem here, not with the self-loosening screws at least.
As for the screws, if you can still tighten them, the threads are most likely still good. In which case I suspect they accidentally used a 4.1mm drill instead of the necessary 3.5mm for this kind of ski. That'd be bad and unfortunately quite hard to prove.
The delamination could be a result of a swollen wood-core due to no glue and un-tightening screws.
But if you really compressed the ski, every warranty is off. This is a very light ski made for raids and mountaineering. You are not supposed to jump anything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Good to know that the situation is salvagable even if I don't get a replacement.
No jumping, no. The largest flexing that I'd expect a touring ski to see is side-slipping down something too convex for the middle to contact. The only time that I've been out with a favourable enough avalanche forecast to be messing around in terrain like that this year was last weekend and i was on the movements
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@Tristero, apologies... 'upping torque' was very ambiguous and potentially misleading in a dangerous kind of way. And that wasn't right. What I meant was, on inserting,you cover the hole and screw with PVA, then torque up by hand to the correct 'not too tight, not too loose' goldilocks torque, and then the glue sets, INCREASING the UNDOING TORQUE required.
Sorry you were right to query.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 18-01-24 10:41; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@pistehors, I suspect that they are now T O A S T. It's going to be very stressful to go through a whole 'can you fix this and can you fix that' rigmarole with the shop. As people have said, I would go straight to Atomic (Amer) with a nice, polite and apologetic email - ie 'I'm really sorry about this but these seem to have fallen apart...'. The screw mess up seems like the shop. But the delamination would seem to be construction. It doesn't seem to be in areas which relate to water ingress in the screws? Ski and bike companies have hundreds of 'I was just riding/skiing along' emails from people who have clearly abused/run over/buggered their equipment but in my experience they respond really well to a clearly and modestly stated genuine problem. i have had great experience with most major companies over genuine problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Was thinking to take them to a different shop, but maybe good money after bad.
I'll give atomic a try, hopefully I can explain myself to them better than in a second language via. a shop that I can't help but feel isn't really on my side. At least then i can draw a line under it feeling I've had fair hearing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@pistehors, I wouldn't take them to a different shop.
Advice from MSE for the UK. I don't know what the escalation procedure would be in France. But certainly asking for a manager, going to head office, small claims or going to court - would be some things to consider.
You could also try the manufacturer direct although the screws in the bindings complicates matters from that pov.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Layne, sadly neither do I and I'm not sure I have the energy to keep at them. The shop has made it quite clear that they aren't interested to give me any further customer service, the manager is never in, wont call me, and "is too busy for that stuff" to forward me the email chain between them and atomic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| pistehors wrote: |
Was thinking to take them to a different shop, but maybe good money after bad.
I'll give atomic a try, hopefully I can explain myself to them better than in a second language via. a shop that I can't help but feel isn't really on my side. At least then i can draw a line under it feeling I've had fair hearing. |
france is a funny place for stuff like this, they never seem to take warranty seriously, probably the reason we see so much bought in france being warrantied in the UK, pre brexit that was easy, but now the costs involved of shipping product back and forth make it not viable and a lot harder to do
might be worth getting another shop to take a look and if they agree that it is warranty they might fight your corner with Atomic... Atomic are a Business to business set up, they have no means of dealing with direct consumer e mails etc other than to have someone sat in an office bouncing them back to the country of origin and on to a retailer, (i as a retailer have to go though my rep and CSM to get anything, i can't just call up head office) if you can get a retailer to help you then you stand a chance, biggest issue is what's in it for them, the other shop sold the ski and made the money and then you are asking someone who hasn't made a penny out of the deal to spend time contacting their rep etc etc maybe if you can put some business their way they might do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
And winding back just a bit….the loose screw issue just isn’t an issue. Put in some Snoli inserts and it’s then just not a problem….
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@CEM, it appears that i can go to atomic.com/fr-fr/ and buy some skis directly, maybe i can hook into the customer service there
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@pistehors, looks to my like Espace Montagne is a chain. Which would often suggest to me poorish training and service. I'd endeavour to go up the chain. Find an email for central "service apres vente" and go above the local managers head?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Looking at the Espace Montagne website, seems they're part of Sport 2000 France (so maybe that's the "up the chain" option to try and complain to)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@schnitzel_skier, I guess a lot hinges on whether they're organised as a franchise or not - and how much interference Sport 2000 have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@under a new name, fair enough, I just clocked at the bottom of EM's website that (in French) they're the "outdoor specialist brand of Sport2000"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Find a contact for marketing / sales within Atomic, they're usually much more powerful in bringing a replacement solution via the technical departments.
Theres much more reason for them to sort it out in relation to reputation and future sales.
Complain nicely, along the lines of......previous experience of product good, haven't had a reasonable chance to even evaluate these new skis I've just bought, there appears to be a significant problem that may be particular to their manufacturing, dont threaten to "never" buy another Atomic product etc, or make unlimited demands that can't be fulfilled logically. Welcome a solution that would involve simple replacement like for like (it's often easiest to just do that and get it out of the way if you're sitting with that "resolution" hat on) and retain you as someone who has then god experience of their product....and just as importantly the backup confidence of buying a good brand should entail.
Additionally, this should be important to Atomic, numbers of failure in a product line are very important to understand. They'll know if there's more incidence, then if that product needs change to improve it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pistehors wrote: |
| @CEM, it appears that i can go to atomic.com/fr-fr/ and buy some skis directly, maybe i can hook into the customer service there |
atomic.com is a separate business, it is a retail side of the brand site, unless you bought form them they are little help so we have been told
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
If you bought on a Credit Card, does France offer the same protections as the UK?
If so, claim via your credit card.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pass the lemsip
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Would it hurt to start here?:
https://support.atomic.com/s/?language=en_GB&_gl=1*1olevsz*_ga*OTY4Nzk0MjAuMTcwNTY2NTg1MQ..*_ga_T92BC75YLP*MTcwNTY2NTg1MS4xLjEuMTcwNTY2NTkxMy4wLjAuMA..*_fplc*aXFQNmRMVGlRUWZZTDRqJTJCOGprNWl4ajROTDR6c0owbklnTjBQZ0tDdnRiTUhBZnRRWHM1amR5Zk1laExVQnFna2RzV29mQXJvSXJ6N3NtZXBFQ3g0OTVyTEtZNzhnelJCVWxiaHpzTEpucTh1SGk1cWU3ZjJ2ckEwcTB2NnclM0QlM0Q.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I agree with @ski3, that if approached in the right way - not making demands but giving them the benefit/understanding - you might get somewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
last januar i had an warranty problem with Salomon.
Not like yours but thats not my point. I returned a pair of boots, they accepted that this was a material problem, but they wanted to give me a coupon for 280. But i wanted another SNB Boots for 240, meaning that i was gonna lose the 40 Euro.
After a little bit disagreement and many emails , i wrote a really polite email, and mention that i am an instructor, and i want further buy from salomon and that i need new equipment almost every year bla bla bla...and after that they game me the money back.
As Ski3 said , Complain nicely....write something which is more to the direction "i need your help i do not know what to do etc"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
