 Poster: A snowHead
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Can someone tell me why it is, that the ski hills in scotland have those nasty looking chestnut fences everywhere?
Is it to keep the sheep off the pistes?
Why don't we see these fences in the main european and north american ski resorts?
Is it that they don't have chestnut trees?
They really are an eyesore!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Virtually all Scottish skiing is based on drifted snow. The snow is almost always carried on strong winds. It either deposits naturally in gullies (coires/corries), due to natural slowing of the wind speed, or it can be done artificially by sticking up the chestnut fences.
They are really effective in putting the snow down on slopes that would normally just be rock and heather fields.
The main European and US resorts do things which are far more destructive - the artificial bulldozing and detonation of the terrain to create pistes, with artificial snowmaking systems plumbed in. Much of this isn't visible in winter, but it's hugely evident in summer.
Snowfences can be removed to restore the original beauty of the landscape, if there's a democratic demand to do it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So glad to hear that they are not put there by some crazed environmentalist lobby! (to herd the skiers into narrow icy corridors)
I assume that if one wishes, you may venture OFF the pisted runs in Scotland, much as you are allowed to elsewhere in the world?
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There's a very strong environmental lobby in Scotland. It's one of the world's most outstanding cherished mountainscapes. This has certainly influenced the outcome on Cairngorm, which is the most heavily protected of the five ski areas (now in a National Park). The expansion of the ski area into Lurcher's Gully was banned around 20 years ago.
The balance of skiers' interests and environmentalists' interests is achieved through dialogue and compromise.
Yes, off-piste skiing in Scotland is unrestricted. In that sense there's more freedom of skiing in Scotland than other parts of the world, when there's enough snow cover!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Back corries at Nevis Range can be pretty spectacular offpiste when there is enough snow although Scotland is definitely not immune from Avy risk. Bruce Daffern's book has a number of photos of Scottish slides.
Can think of any number of resorts elsewher that emply snowfences for the same reasons but usually near the tops of chairs etc to retain snow on rocky/scree downslopes.
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As you head into Meribel Mottaret from Coruchevel down the black under the chair (Grand Ramees? or is that the lower of the two chairs?)to the RHS looking up from Motterat there are plenty of snow fences for quite a long way down, I've always assumed that they served the same purpose as in Scotland
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David Goldsmith, in Europe, how much off piste is restricted? I haven't noticed many restrictions myself...?
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In the places I go, there's quite a bit roped off to protect forests and animals. I'd expect this trend to grow quite a bit across the Alps. I think tree-skiing is universally banned in Austria, but maybe someone could clarify this.
The key point about off-piste in Scotland is that it's very restricted most of the time, so the issue is a bit hypothetical - in terms of accessible off-piste from the patrolled ski areas. That's not to say that hundreds of skiers don't get to large areas of off-piste in the Highlands by accessing it from other locations.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I think tree-skiing is universally banned in Austria, but maybe someone could clarify this. |
Is there any particular reason for that? I love tree skiing, but I'm not sure why it should be thought any more environmentally damaging than other forms of our sport.
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The larch forests in Serre Chevalier have protected areas.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ....... I think tree-skiing is universally banned in Austria, but maybe someone could clarify this.......... |
Since when? You've made me realise it's a long time since I skied in Austria, but I recall skiing though trees in the Arlburg with no restriction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ...In the places I go, there's quite a bit roped off to protect forests and animals. I'd expect this trend to grow quite a bit across the Alps. I think tree-skiing is universally banned in Austria, but maybe someone could clarify this.... |
I am intrigued about the "places where you go", David. Tell us more.
As for Austria, Zell am Zee does ban tree skiing, apparently:
| Quote: |
| Fans of tree skiing/boarding should note that in addition to a lack of trees in Kaprun, tree skiing is not allowed at neighboring Zell am See due to environmental protection rules. |
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However, I am personally thinking of St Anton and surrounding area, where I used to ski through trees, and would like to do again. It looks as though it's still OK:
| Quote: |
| The skiing is truly world class and the slopes are limitless with the 4 valleys. Tree skiing at the bottom and wide open bowls at the top. |
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You know it makes sense.
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off-piste....
http://forum.ski.com.au/ultimate/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=003674
restrictions? well you have to walk self and gear out there...
and it is a national park - so no dogs, carry poo out etc etc as per NPWS guidelines....(I think you can have fires in winter but summer is usually a no no. There are rules re type of wood taken and locations if you do have fires)
otherwise - no restrictions... but be sure you can navigate very well (my brothers measure was walking 3km circles in dark on compass only at returning to within small amount of starting spot)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fantastic photography.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I enjoyed some fantastic tree skiing in new powder in St Anton last year. First I've heard of wide bans in Austria!
In Italy some areas have NO OFF PIST SKIING signs, but we eventually worked out that it was a way of avoiding financial responsibility for accidents and they don't care if you do.
As for Scotland the back bowl (and most of the front) of Nevis Range skiing is free of fences (or was when I was last there). See here and click on the photo gallery.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick Zotov - yeah nice huh?
In Oz we distinguish between off-piste = in resort but not groomed and
back-country = out of resort
some times use also front-country = out of resort but day trip easy access type stuff versus the "out the back" stuff...
I have only done front-country and not much... but the scenery is awesome... makes it worth walking up hill!
Hence the photos above are in a section of forum labelled "back-country"
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Yep, dont hit one...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, There is great touring in Europe, though I have limited experience of it. However, I had a great day out at Saas Fee where the guides are well tuned-in to day touring, and a wonderful week in the Furka Pass area near Andermatt. The second photo shows a party returning to the Rotondo Hut.
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Nick Zotov
Oz has more land area under snow than Switzerland (well maybe not this year yet as you can see from those photos it is a bad year so far)
The ones of those photos with mountains going on in the background will be looking along main range of our alps... pretty much most of those mountains are national park(s)...
| Quote: |
| As a well-watered, snow-clad and mountainous area in a mostly dry and flat continent, the Australian Alps with 1.6 million hectares of protected areas are of great significance. |
There is an alpine walking track there that is 655km long (runs along tops of many mountains there)... my cousin walkied it - very LONG walk... food drops needed (ie someone walks a pack full of food in for the next weeks provisions for you)
when they say back country they mean it....
and when it burns.... it burns and burns and burns and burns!  bug summer thunderstorms! (actually it is necessary for us to have fires for trees to germinate... but BIG HOT fires are bad... I remember checking after last big one and soil burnt to about 20cm deep...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
Nick Zotov
Oz has more land area under snow than Switzerland (well maybe not this year yet as you can see from those photos it is a bad year so far)
The ones of those photos with mountains going on in the background will be looking along main range of our alps... pretty much most of those mountains are national park(s)... |
Certainly looks like grand open country. I was just saying that Europe has it's own special places, too.
| Quote: |
.......There is an alpine walking track there that is 655km long (runs along tops of many mountains there)... my cousin walkied it - very LONG walk... food drops needed (ie someone walks a pack full of food in for the next weeks provisions for you)
when they say back country they mean it.... |
Sure seems like it. Europe has GR5 - but other commitments mean I could never take off the time required. But I may yet do part of it. Nice thought, anyway - though these days I would struggle with the fitness needed..
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 17-07-06 9:01; edited 1 time in total
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David Goldsmith,
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The key point about off-piste in Scotland is that it's very restricted most of the time, so the issue is a bit hypothetical - in terms of accessible off-piste from the patrolled ski areas. That's not to say that hundreds of skiers don't get to large areas of off-piste in the Highlands by accessing it from other locations.
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Not sure what you mean - yes it can be restricted by poor snow, but there is plenty of offpiste at for example Cairngorm, ranging from the likes of the East Lady, or Gulleys 1 and 2 into the Ciste Gully which or all within the ski area, to The Cas head wall, Coronation wall, Ciste Mhearaid, the south face of Cairngorm, Coire Raibert or a couple of routes down by the saddle to Loch Avon. Then there is all the touring over the back, and Lurchers, Alladins couloir and point five gulley in Sneachda. I did some of these last winter all accessed from the ski area. I went up on the funicular and then used at least one other tow before heading out of the ski area. The only time I had to walk up was on June 24th  when I skied in Ciste Mhearaid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Glencoe (White Corries Ski Centre) is pretty much all "off piste" above the cliff-hanger/ettive glades lifts. Some awesome terrain and lines. Had a day there in March that would have been a great days skiing in the Alps. Great snow, great terrain and fantastic weather...also had a few more decent days before the season ended but the first day was just amazing.
If you're prepared to hike there's some amazing off-piste in Scotland. I skied the main bowl and "Black Spout" couloir on Lochnagar in one day in MAY of 2001...6 mile hike in and forgot my sandwiches..Grrrrrr  . Great fun though. One benefit is that it's all pretty much at sea level (well, 100m-ish max) so not as tiring as at altitude!
Opportunities are pretty few and far between these days though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DrBullet wrote: |
| .......6 mile hike in and forgot my sandwiches....... |
Now that is a tough day's skiing.
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| Quote: |
Oz has more land area under snow than Switzerland
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Have you got any evidence to back that statement up? Are we talking regular snow (i.e. a several dumps a season) or places where it has EVER snowed (i.e. one dusting every hundred years)?
I have been to Oz (& Switz) many times and have many friends there, some of whom ski, and they go to NZ becoz Oz skiing is crap (they say). Obviously I've been misinformed!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I once saw a photo of a skier who had impaled himself on a Scottish snow-fence post - a stake right in among his intestines! He had gone up in the air and landed on it. It was a first aid course for ski leaders but I'm not sure what we were meant to do about that one. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, Don't remove the stake! ANyone got a saw handy???? Strangely enough I don't think it happens very often. We have a big fence in the middle of one of the red runs (La Breche) where the snow always gets blown off. It does a sterling job.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| the ice perv wrote: |
| Quote: |
Oz has more land area under snow than Switzerland
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Have you got any evidence to back that statement up? Are we talking regular snow (i.e. a several dumps a season) or places where it has EVER snowed (i.e. one dusting every hundred years)?
I have been to Oz (& Switz) many times and have many friends there, some of whom ski, and they go to NZ becoz Oz skiing is crap (they say). Obviously I've been misinformed! |
Regular snow...
I am going on the regularly quoted numbers - but will look it up for you...
remember Oz is a LARGEish country... Switzerland a smallish one...
Think about the figure above for area of our ALPINE national parks (yes they are called alpine for a reason not on some whim) ... remember that they are in NSW and Vic only and that Tasmania also has much area covered in snow in winter...
Now remember that Oz is a large FLAT land....
Our ski resorts for downhill/alpine (whatever you wish to call it) consist of 3 main smallish areas in Vic excised from the national parks for the purposes of resort... and 2 main areas in New South Wales that remain national park under control of the New South Wales National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS).... (there are actually a couple of smaller areas in both places but they really are puddles for beginners and family snow play)
Also recall that we ski in (slightly) positive temperatures most days...
So you have a few not large areas of not so great vertical and questionable snow quality (unless you like ice and are in race program so can ski at 730am... or get up late and ski gluey slop- often clear patches in it - after 1pm).
Now consider it is a 5 hour drive Sydney-snow and about the same melbourne-snow except for Mt Buller which is 1-2hours drive...
From Queensland it is a MANY hour drive... from Adelaide about 10hours...
A plane trip to NZ is about 3 hours...
NZ has vert and lower temps... which would YOU choose as an alpine skier?
Now look at it from a back-country view point... we have lots of unspoilt, unfenced wilderness.... where else can they get this? Patagonian icecap? Antarctica? Canada? Alaska?
It suddenly becomes more attractive to ski at home where we have lots of area but not great vert huh? the temps mean you don't totally freeze your balls off.... the costs are a piar of skis every x years, some skins, boots, tent, stove, down bag, 2 sleeping mats, yada yada yada.... and then no onging bar petrol to departure point - which can be shared!
It is very dependant on how/why one likes to ski... etc etc... we have plenty land under snow - but you have to EARN THOSE TURNS big time....
I'd give skiing in Oz a try one year... aim for August - end of or September - early.... BUT expect it to be NOTHING like you have tried before.... it is NOT same... September corn is sweet... combine with snowgums(yes we have eucalypts above snowline) wombats, echidnas, and black cockatoos...
If you want to try the back country get your friends to get you in touch with Bruce at Wilderness Sports in Jindabyne... (or he is on the net). He runs backcountry tours - both skiing and snowshoe...
Even better - aim for hanging around into spring and get into a white water raft in spring in the murray! Or paddle the snowy river in a kayak/canoe....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger,
Interesting. To give an idea of size Northern Ireland is about 1 million hectares.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I didn't doubt little tiger's stats but actually even the backcountry opportunities aren't going to sell it to me given the stories I've heard from plenty of Aussies about snow cover in their resorts. For the distance I'd rather go to South America or NZ.
If I lived in Sydney or Melbourne I'm sure I'd feel different but a ski trip to Oz is a hard sell to Northern Hemispherers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Johnboy - yeah I know - it's a laugh trying to convince aussies that it WILL take them >4 hours to drive from cork to dublin - I mean it is like NO distance...(less than the width of my state in the middle)... we do that distance to go shopping for the day from the bush! (or to a play/opera etc).... It is so hard to get people to understand that our "flat" mountains (they are grass montane from the east side approach - so look even flatter than their low altitude would make you think) hold dangers of different kind to "alps" .... mostly the remoteness... your mobile phone WILL NOT work most places outside the ski resorts.... yet people wander off with them as their "safety" .... (sorry rant - but I watched my baby brother and his buddies hunt out lost people for years... and then lately my sisters hubby - often hunting bodies after exposure periods became long...)
fatbob - it is horses for courses.... resort skiing paradise it ain't.... as i said it is definitely an earn your turns kinds place.... if you do not mind sleeping in a tent (and carrying same) though it has some awesome scenery - both summer and winter...
I find "bush walking" here in Ireland a joke!
It is nice to get out and see the country.... but guys... there is the word bush in it for a reason....
I find "green roads" that include stomping down black asphalt less than appealing..... I long for a vista uninteruppted by fences, houses, rubbish, ploughed fields, cows,sheep, etc....
Kind of makes me appreciate poor old Dorothea Mackellar's words all the more
My Country
by Dorothea Mackellar (1885 - 1968)
The love of field and coppice,
Of green and shaded lanes,
Of ordered woods and gardens
Is running in your veins.
Strong love of grey-blue distance
Brown streams and soft, dim skies -
I know but cannot share it,
My love is otherwise.
I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror -
The wide brown land for me!
.........
A opal-hearted country,
A wilful, lavish land -
All you who have not loved her,
You will not understand -
Though earth holds many splendours,
Wherever I may die,
I know to what brown country
My homing thoughts will fly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yoda knows a bit about fences 
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| easiski wrote: |
| snowball, Don't remove the stake! ANyone got a saw handy???? |
Actually, yes, we were told that. In the photo I think the stake had alread been cut.
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Fences are also sometimes used as avalanche preventors - stopping the snow from sliding. But they tend to be a bit bigger and are often at strange angles and cable-stayed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
I find "bush walking" here in Ireland a joke! It is nice to get out and see the country.... but guys... there is the word bush in it for a reason....
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That'll be why we don't call it 'bush walking'.
| little tiger wrote: |
I find "green roads" that include stomping down black asphalt less than appealing..... I long for a vista uninteruppted by fences, houses, rubbish, ploughed fields, cows,sheep, etc....
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That's a bit like complaining that after you've walked through the Australian bush 250 miles from the nearest human habitation, you can't buy a cold beer and watch the rugby.
The topographies of Europe and Australia are both great, but different. Europe is essentaially a man made environment; very few parts of it have not been very significantly altered by man, and it is man's interaction with the landscape which provides much of the interest. Australia, while not exactly a pristine wilderness, is obviously much less man made. I spent a few days camping in Arnhem Land (Coburg Peninsula), very remote (maybe not by Australian standards), very inhospitable, fantastic experience. Walking in Kerry or Connemara is pretty good too, though, especially if you want to buy beers and watch rugby.
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FAQ
