 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Seems to need registration or payment to access beyond the first paragraph:
The Telegrapgh > Travel > Ski
Headline: ‘We saw a man die after falling hundreds of metres’: The real risk of skiing
Strapline: While serious incidents on the slopes are rare, they do happen – find out when and where accidents are most likely to occur
Author: Abigail Butcher, Travel writer
Date: 23 January 2025 10:10am GMT
Article: Recent reports of accidents on the slopes are a shocking reminder of the risks associated with ski holidays...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I’ll ask my dad, he’s the only one I know who still reads it 
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@Dylan_T42, archive.ph
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abricotine wrote: |
| I’ll ask my dad, he’s the only one I know who still reads it |
Him & my father-in-law ;-}
| Gämsbock wrote: |
| @Dylan_T42, archive.ph |
Cheers - here we go: https://archive.ph/DNeG2 - as @skimastaaah noted, interesting:
| Quote: |
On Jan 14, a 62-year-old British woman died after hitting another skier, who was stationary, on the black Aiguille Rouge piste in Les Arcs. The stationary skier, a male aged 35, received medical treatment in Arc 2000 for a broken leg and an investigation has been opened into the event, which witnesses said involved high speed.
Four days later, on Jan 18, a six-year-old child was airlifted to hospital after losing consciousness following a collision on the blue Arpette piste in neighbouring La Plagne, and earlier this month, in Davos, a 24-year-old German man died after hitting a skier and then crashing into a sign.
While serious traumatic accidents and fatalities are rare – statistics point to around one accident per 1,000 skier days – they do happen. And research on accidents by French authorities shows that collisions are most likely to occur on wide blue runs, and on quiet days in optimum conditions. |
Although of the four collisions that I have direct experience of, all have been in moderate to poor conditions; but three have been with snow-boarders - with a one-nil score for my fault knocking a boardie over, but nil-two including one slight concussion for Mrs.T42; and only one on a blue where a fellow skier was looking the wrong way as a kid on his heels skied under her!
Looking over both one's shoulders is my main lesson from that.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 16-03-25 12:59; edited 2 times in total
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Thanks, interesting article. Surprised to see the late morning peak in accidents as always thought “last run of the day” certainly tends to feel busiest and most dangerous mix of speed and abilities on the home runs.
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I think it's a sign of the gradual lessening of concern for others in society not just in skiing. It generally seems to be speeding youngsters and middle age groups of males chasing each other down the piste , always the best skier in front who can ski well followed by the rest who's abilities tend to get less as the group go by, too much testosterone and too little ability.
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I was in Madonna 1-8 March, it was busy with schools off, slopes were full of idiots skiing at race pace on grouded blues and reds. Helicopter and skidoos kept busy. Every day I had a near miss with someone cutting me up from behind. Quite depressing. One guy hit my tails and went flying, I kept going, I was well out of sympathy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Ghost Dog, we were there mid Feb and it was the same.
Someone wiped me out from behind and the next day I discussed it with my instructor who I know well. He said that it's certain demographics as pretty much described by @robs1 and in his opinion they lacked etiquette and an understanding of the basic rules about the downhill skier having right of way (I am paraphrasing and making more polite his actual description!). He was telling me how he sees it all the time and people will argue that they had right of way when the clearly didn't.
As if to perfectly illustrate the point two days later I was on another lesson and a young kid skied right into the back of my instructor, fortunately they bounced off him and no-one was injured but the father blamed the instructor for not looking behind when he turned, despite the fact that he was doing slow, perfectly controlled and predictable turns. There followed a polite passive aggressive discussion between them 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abricotine wrote: |
| Thanks, interesting article. Surprised to see the late morning peak in accidents as always thought “last run of the day” certainly tends to feel busiest and most dangerous mix of speed and abilities on the home runs. |
I think I can understand that. I was sent flying just before lunch by an out of control skier three seasons ago and was lucky to avoid serious injury.
I find I do my best skiing from about 11.00 a.m. onwards. By then I am fully warmed up and into the swing of things. Just before lunch is when the pistes are often at their best and ideal for those that want to ski (too) fast.
The later in the day accidents are more likely to be tired skiers. Also by then the pistes will be more chopped up and less suitable for going flat out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@richjp, Later in the day accounts for just 16% of accidents.
38% happen in late morning (10.30 - 12.00 - Children and youths the main demographic)
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To add a bit of context, only 5% of accidents are collisions. (From the article). The other 95% are presumably someone making a hash of things individually
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You know it makes sense.
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@ecureuil, so you think that the pistes are only 5% more dangerous.
Please tell that to the 125,000 (2.5% of 52,000,000 skiers days in France) casualties in the 2023/2024 season.
@TYPUCT, what chemicals are you on?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimastaaah wrote: |
@ecureuil, so you think that the pistes are only 5% more dangerous.
Please tell that to the 125,000 (2.5% of 52,000,000 skiers days in France) casualties in the 2023/2024 season.
@TYPUCT, what chemicals are you on? |
I think you miss read what the 5% was about
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimastaaah, my reading is that of those 125,000 casualties around 119,000 are authors of their own misfortune. Only around 6,000 are the result of collisions. The number of collisions (that result in casualties), and thus the number of innocent victims, will be lower still, because some/many collisions will produce 2 casualties. And many of those casualties will have relatively minor injuries, like bruising or pulled muscles
Any number casualties who are innocent victims of collisions is too many, but say 4,000 in 52,000,000 skier days seems like a relatively low risk to me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| ... many of those casualties will have relatively minor injuries, like bruising or pulled muscles |
But many such will also go un-reported, per both impacts upon Mrs.T42 - when in neither case did I remember to take photos of faces+lift passes, nor get names+numbers 
| Quote: |
| Any number casualties who are innocent victims of collisions is too many, but say 4,000 in 52,000,000 skier days seems like a relatively low risk to me. |
I'd add that the guilty are also their own victims, and glad most healthcare systems don't discriminate. But two falls in 18x6-day weeks is roughly 1 per 50 days sliding, so somewhat higher than the above ~1-in-10,000 (hospitalisation?) stat.
That couple of of orders of magnitude difference is both heartening & worrying enough to keep me looking over both shoulders 
BTW @skimastaaah, FFF is also a medical thing indicating potential for gall stones, when it stands for "Fat, fair, & forty" of either gender. Not a definitive indicator, although stereo-types exist for a reason, but conversely decrying them shouldn't just be deemed 'woke' - we can all be idiots some of the time ;-}
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 24-03-25 8:47; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've been hit three times in roughly fifty weeks so not too bad, had a lot of near misses, as I get older I do think more about avoiding others who are of control. Only once have I collided with someone and that was my wife who as we were stopping to have a break decided to turn into me  almost no speed involved
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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One of my friends suffered a freak accident in Mayrhofen week of 1-8 March at Hintertux. Dismounting a T Bar the T caught under her jacket and threw her into a wall of ice. Result 2 broken ribs and a broken pelvis. While in hospital in Innsbruck one of he doctors mentioned that this is the worst season he has seen, like M.A.S.H non stop choppers and ambulances from about 11am every day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Origen, Read page 5 again 
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I'm trying to remember how many collisions I've had in about 100 weeks of skiing over the last 39 years.
1, totally my fault, downhill skier made an unexpected turn into my path, I think it was my first week on skis.
2, overweight girl slid into me, nice soft landing
3, I got caught off balance & was heading straight for another skier, a small lady, so I picked her up as I hit her at quite slow speed and let her fall on top of me, rather than vice versa.
4, no collision, but a very close shave, I was sliding slowly towards my buddy that had sat on the berm at the side of the piste, fortunately I wasn't wearing my helmet and I clearly heard a fast approaching skier, so I stopped 50cm short of my buddy just as this other guy went between us at mach 2. If I'd had anything blocking my hearing, it would have been very nasty.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tangowaggon, number 3, sounds the sort of collision I would prefer with being picked up better than a solid hit!
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Accidents are on the increase. I work in ski patrol (pisteur secouriste) in France and our season total of accidents is rising. Over 50% of accidents do occur on blue slopes. Equipment advancements have definitely provided people with the opportunity to go to a level normally their skill set would have not previously allowed. Collisions when they occur generally cause trauma of varying scales. We've also had an increase in severe lacerations due to ski edges.
There is also a rise in the numbers of people coming to the winter resorts since Covid. The piste grooming is providing more sleek slopes which encourage higher speeds.
Also there are more accidents on blue bird days, in reduced or low visibility people tend to go slower. There are more blue bird days because snowfall 'episodes' have declined. Are apps maybe also contributing to speed control issues (let's log the highest speed!)? Instagram has definitely contributed to more accidents in MR (away from the snow).
I have been focussing my work in snow safety education the past 10 years with my CIC, visiting schools, clubs etc and I find it very worrying that so many people dont know the basic FIS code of conduct. A lot also dont know the implications of descending a slope that ski patrol has shut (insurance being void). I had someone this winter say, 'oh but it's like going 'off piste'  ........
The FIS code of conduct will be used when there is a question of liability.
I agree that it would be good to pool statistics for snowsports accidentology in Europe which is what I am researching at the moment, however this will not improve the safety and change the behaviour of users.
During Covid I wrote a snow safety book for children after the sudden death of my avalanche SAR dog 'Fjord', hopefully it will help the younger generation learn the essentials (and the parents reading it). A lot of all the comments on behaviour I read above really does boil down to respecting and being kind to others, sadly human nature doesn't always lean towards this.
More ski patrollers are bring skied into (les Arcs two were signed off work as a result) despite being in visible clothing. Next year French patrol will have a national uniform - red jacket, black pants (like in la Clusaz/ Val d'Isère) so hopefully this will help to keep us out of danger.
I have to say one of my best times of the day in ski patrol is when we shut the slopes, the calm returns with the lifts shuts and the mountain takes her true form.
have a great Sunday.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@FjordSAR, this is a sobering and entirely convincing post. Thank you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@FjordSAR, absolutely - what an insightful post, thank you for sharing it with us. And I am sorry for the loss of your special dog 
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Thank you for your words - Fjord was an incredible dog, his death was due to boredom (eating socks) not helped with being banned for working in the UK by the SAR dog association upon our return - our French USAR fire and rescue multi-discipline qualification was not recognised by the teams 
Any more questions on the subject matter I'd be most happy to shine some light if I can... Accident prevention in this environment is my passion and mission in many respects. The mountains are a beautiful place and dont need to be so dangerous.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Please copy and paste the contents of page 5 - I can't access it. Merci
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you are looking for a present for a skiing-mad kid, you can buy @FjordSAR’s lovely book on Amazo n.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FjordSAR wrote: |
| .. A lot also dont know the implications of descending a slope that ski patrol has shut (insurance being void). I had someone this winter say, 'oh but it's like going 'off piste' ........ . |
I can see that if you have just Carre Neige or equivalent then that probably won't cover rescue from a closed piste. But most overseas visitors will have broader travel insurance, and if this covers off-piste what IS the difference between skiing on a closed piste and an off-piste line immediately adjacent to it? And would vary according to the reason for closure (avi risk, ice, poor snow cover, etc)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ecureuil, the difference is that insurance companies will exclude closed pistes taking the view you shouldn't be on it. There is nothing stopping you going off-piste (unless there is e.g. a rope across) hence insurance companies putting in conditions like must be with a guide or avi risk factors
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ghost Dog wrote: |
| I was in Madonna 1-8 March, it was busy with schools off, slopes were full of idiots skiing at race pace on grouded blues and reds. Helicopter and skidoos kept busy. Every day I had a near miss with someone cutting me up from behind. Quite depressing. One guy hit my tails and went flying, I kept going, I was well out of sympathy. |
noticed the same in Flaine.
I thought that Half Term was mid February, so that will be relatively ok.
It was not so crowded, but everyday i saw at least 3-4 coming with a skidoo
An too many people with wheelchairs (with knee injuiries or somethling like this), crutches. or shoulder injuries.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ecureuil, the difference is that a piste closure is authorities specifically advising not to ski that area so you are acting against local guidance/advice. I'd expect a insurer to use that to decline cover. Worth bearing in mind that a closure isn'yt just because the slope may lack snow cover etc there could be avy risk dependent on time of day. I frequently see people skiing round closed signs in the afternoon in spring where anyone with a bit of awareness can see there is potential for a wet slide from above.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Skiing against local advice" will be excluded by most insurers and one can have quite interesting conversations about what level of "local advice" about avy risk constitutes skiing against local advice.
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I can understand the comments above from people saying you wouldn't be covered under the terms of a third party winter sports insurance policy, but I don't believe for one second that Carre Neige wouldn't cover you on a closed piste. I've certainly never heard or read about anyone ever being refused a claim for such a reason and if you look at their claim form, the only information requested for the location of your accident/rescue is the name of the resort, that's it.
But it is a condition of cover that you give your policy details to the pisteurs at the time of rescue (so they can claim it direct) so what are people suggesting, that the pisteur will turn round and say "Sorry mate this is a closed piste, we can't accept Carre Neige." Never gonna happen. Apart from anything else, that would be transferring the legal responsibility for the "covered/not covered" decision onto a pisteur and away from an insurance company claims representative which would open the pisteur up to all sorts of litigious possibilities. It's utterly unrealistic.
Same as ducking a rope to go off piste, doesn't matter. As an example, just look at something like Lac du Lou in the 3Vs. Whichever side you go in from, you'll be ducking a rope yet the ESF lead groups down there all the time - would they do that if it voided their clients' insurance? No way.
Same with avy risk. Anything other than Risk 1 (Low) could be officially inadvisable to ski but if an insurance company refused to cover any level above that, the policy would be pointless.
The official wording of Carre Neige is: Accident while skiing or doing other winter sports in the ski area including the off-piste ski area that is accessible via ski-lift.
There is nothing in the exclusions about local advice, avy risk, ducking ropes, or closed pistes. The main exclusions are racing (beyond ski school ability tests), a pre-existing medical issue that you've had recent treatment for, excessive alcohol/drugs or attempted suicide.
You can read the T&Cs in French and English here: https://carreneige.com/en/nos-offres/carre-neige/tableau-garanties/
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@Je suis un Skieur, Its been done to death on here
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@holidayloverxx, I know it has so why are you still perpetuating the same inaccurate statements?
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@Je suis un Skieur, I didn't mention carre neige
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