 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BobinCH, I would have thought, without knowing, that the yanks will have a harder time negotiating Swiss laws than they would like?
Never quite sure why they bought Crans 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
@BobinCH, I would have thought, without knowing, that the yanks will have a harder time negotiating Swiss laws than they would like?
Never quite sure why they bought Crans |
Market it to Epic pass holders and buy up restaurants / bars / ski schools to profit from increased spending
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Vail is coming and there's no stopping it ...
Genie was out of the bottle when Vail's first significant expansion happened in 2010-2012 when 3 Lake Tahoe ski areas (Heavenly at first and Kirkwood and Northstar closed the circle) were acquired by Vail. Soon contentious takeover of Park City Mountain Resort followed and introduction of Epic Pass - loved by many, hated by some ...
Now we are seeing similar process in European ski market developing ...
Vail stock had since performed very well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Cheapski, CEO pocketed over $6m in total comp last year mainly bonus and stock so the numbers must look good.
Its the queues that worry me…
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Vail Resorts and the Saudis trying to takeover global sport 
Hopefully money doesn’t talk in the proudly patriotic Alpine nations of Europe.
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nah ... don't worry about the cues, you can have "add on" to your Epic Pass that would conveniently allow priority access 
I have no problem with how MTN is performing.
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@BobinCH, sure I get that but Crans is hardly tier 1.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not sure I'd be buying into Crans or Verbier now.
Both towns a bit on the low side, in this global warming era.
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@Whitegold,
yes, like there is nothing else to do there ...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tristero wrote: |
| is tuition restrictable by the resort in the US? That'd be vicious. It isn't in Europe. |
It is in the US.
But there’re “underground” instructors.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Vail does not permit independent ski instructors at its Australian resorts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Judging by the quality/price of the food offerings on mountain in Vail it will be very sad if they take over in Europe. The trouble is money talks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What exactly does ‘taking over Verbier’ entail? Does it mean buying the lift company? Or all the independent eateries? Or the ski schools?
The USA ski model is very different. Vail (or whoever) own the whole mountain. They control the lifts, the ski hire, the ski school and all the retail outlets. Sometimes the accommodation as well.
In Europe all the restaurants are often privately owned (the lift company might run some by lift stations) and there are usually multiple ski schools. So unless Vail somehow took over every business in Verbier it isn’t easily going to change into a US ski resort
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How do the prices above compare to non-Vail resorts in USA / Canada? Their prices presumably can't be high enough that they drive all the customers away...?
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@TommyJ, yep. I'm kinda thinking it's not as easy to hegemonise Switzerland as they might imagine. They won't be able to mandate a single ski school for example, I don't think. I'm going to guess that Televerbier don't own the land, rather they have operating contracts with the commune(s)?
Chamonix sadly, presumably under prior IntraWest influence, mostly has company owned restaurants which are a bit crap and a bit expensive. A difficult proposition to unwind. Under new management this year but no great improvement as far as I can see.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Televerbier controls several of the restaurants in Verbier but not all. They will no doubt try and get a ski school into the bargain like in Crans. It’s flooding the place with Epic pass holders that worries me. Verbier is easier to get to than Crans or Andermatt and the skiing is miles better. If you can get that for free on Epic why wouldn’t you go
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| TommyJ wrote: |
| The [North American] model is very different. ... They control the lifts, the ski hire, the ski school and all the retail outlets. Sometimes the accommodation as well. ... |
Fixed that for you. Yeah, more like a theme park with snow than a village with a ski lift.
The Epic pass people get to ride Verbier "for free" already... except they only have so many days, and they have to stay for those days in specific hotels... you can see how that might work. Does anyone know what the cost penalty for staying in those places is, if any? I mean: if you're using your free days, how much more does their accommodation cost compared with what you'd normally use?
| bob wrote: |
| If you can get [Verbier] for free on Epic why wouldn’t you go |
I was there with my Whistler mates who have their passes, but they didn't use them as we were crashing on someone's sofa (hi Magnus!)... so it's not that simple, I think. In Whistler, the general view was that Epic people are, um, less accomplished than the guys they replaced, so they're not much of a worry for locals. I reckon you'll not be fighting with them for lines of Mont Gele. In Whistler "the positive" as investment - newer lifts with quicker transport up... allied with more people, so it kind of evens out. I guess "who wins" depends on one's precise interests. It is what it is.
| uann wrote: |
| Chamonix sadly, presumably under prior IntraWest influence, mostly has company owned restaurants which are a bit crap and a bit expensive. A difficult proposition to unwind. Under new management this year but no great improvement as far as I can see. |
I guess you mean the "on mountain" stuff. I didn't visit any. Some other places in the Alps also have what I assume are "resort owned" catering (Sölden comes to mind) and that's all garbage, as it is in places like Snowbird. Those aren't "chain resorts", so I think the problem isn't specific to VR. That said, I'm happy to ride when other people are eating and drinking in the middle of the day. I'll take a decent breakfast and ride all day every time.
I think the issue is that most people who use mountain restaurants mostly aren't selective based on food quality. They're a captive market, and driving down costs works better than increasing margins. Perhaps we're lucky that they're not all McDonalds.
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Anyone got 1 - 3 million they can lend me 
The possible takeover of Téléverbier SA by Vail Resorts
The facts
Last December, Vail Resorts announced the acquisition of the Crans-
Montana ski lifts. This transaction followed the takeover of 55% of the company operating the Andermatt-Sedrun
Andermatt-Sedrun in the summer of 2022.
Vail Resorts is also very likely to be interested in taking control of Téléverbier.
Their commercial strategy is to offer a 'multi-resort' annual pass, like the Magic Pass.
like the Magic Pass.
As for Téléverbier, the Burrus family is the main shareholder, holding between 40% and 55% of the capital.
of the capital. It is likely that they will also want to sell their shareholding in the short to medium term.
medium term.
The timing of such a takeover of TVSA by Vail Resorts could happen at very short notice.
two representatives of the Burrus family, together with Jean-Albert Ferrez, Chairman of the
Board of Directors, and Laurent Vaucher, CEO, have just spent a week in Vail.
Vail in January 2024.
If TVSA were to be taken over by Vail Resorts, it would be for the long term.
ownership of TVSA by Vail could last for decades. So the stakes are high!
For or against
The question now is whether such a takeover of Téléverbier by an American group is
appropriate. One advantage is certainly that Vail Resorts is the world's largest ski lift operator.
operator of ski lifts in the world, with 41 resorts to its name, mainly in the
United States. It is therefore a true industry professional. On the other hand, like any professionally run company
professionally managed company, Vail Resorts aims to maximise its profits;
in particular by bringing as many skiers as possible to the ski area and by pushing far
diversification, for example by operating a large number of restaurants, sports shops and a
sports shops and a ski school.
Téléverbier is the backbone of Verbier's tourism offering, and both the resort and the municipality depend on tourism for their livelihood.
and the municipality depend on tourism for their livelihood. In these circumstances, is it wise to entrust a foreign company with
pursuing its own objectives, the task of exploiting what has made the resort so successful and renowned?
reputation of the resort? Is there not a risk that sooner or later there will be conflicts of interest
between the ski lift operator on the one hand, and the municipality and its residents,
and secondary residents?
Estimated purchase price of Téléverbier SA
Vail Resorts bought the Crans Montana ski lift company for almost 9 x
the anticipated EBITDA in 5 years. Vail Resorts now has a market capitalisation of CHF
7.4 billion, compared with EBITDA of CHF 725 million in the 2022-23 financial year, i.e. a multiple
of 10. By way of comparison, Téléverbier's capitalisation is CHF 64 million and EBITDA
in the 2021-2022 financial year of CHF 21.7 million, excluding state aid due to covid; hence a
multiple of nearly 3x. With a valuation multiple more than three times that of Téléverbier
than Téléverbier's, Vail Resorts should be prepared to offer up to 3x Téléverbier's current market value.
Téléverbier, i.e. an amount of almost CHF 200 million.
Future ownership of Téléverbier
Perhaps Christian Burrus and his family will have the courtesy to request an offer from the municipality
once Vail Resorts has submitted its offer. As a first step, the municipality could
acquire this package of shares and, at the same time, launch a regulatory takeover bid. At
25.86% of the shares already held by the commune and the bourgeoisie, Val de Bagnes should therefore
Val de Bagnes to raise around CHF 150 million. The Commune has the means to carry out
such an operation. However, it will only do so if it has the assurance of being able to
resell all, or a large proportion, of the shares acquired to private individuals.
To this end, it is now necessary to find residents willing to invest in the purchase of Téléverbier shares.
Téléverbier shares. Given the value of the resort's real estate holdings, estimated at CHF 10 to 12 billion, this should be a gamble worth taking. We therefore imagine that residents, in particular
second homes worth several million, might be prepared to invest a sum of
willing to invest CHF 1 to 3 million for emotional reasons, but also because of their attachment to Verbier,
attachment to Verbier and, at the same time, to protect the value of their property.
property assets. In spirit, such an investment is more akin to patronage than to
a financial investment designed to provide a return.
Process
Some of us believe that Téléverbier SA should remain in "local hands". And
first, we are trying to identify residents who are interested in participating in such a rescue.
rescue. Our primary goal is to raise the sum of CHF 150 million with the help of a hundred or so people.
hundred people. Once we've identified a circle of potential investors, we'll then need to define a modus operandi.
then define a modus operandi with the municipality and, at the same time, prepare a shareholders' agreement.
shareholder agreement. Time is of the essence!
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| Quote: |
In Whistler, the general view was that Epic people are, um, less accomplished than the guys they replaced, so they're not much of a worry for locals. I reckon you'll not be fighting with them for lines of Mont Gele. In Whistler "the positive" as investment - newer lifts with quicker transport up... allied with more people, so it kind of evens out. I guess "who wins" depends on one's precise interests.
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Yep, my whistler friends say the same thing. Village is busier, but more "tourist" than "skier" crowd. Less competition for a lot of the good stuff. As well as improving lifts Vail bought in the epic pass which significantly undercut the old pass price (I would know as I was there the season before!). So not only cheaper skiing, but gave the opportunity for many whistler locals to visit new places in N America - hard to justify buying more loft tickets when you already shelled out for a season pass.
I'm kind of surprised Vail are looking at buying Verbier. I figured their plan would buy the "B class" resorts that they can try to improve and also in the hope that those resorts would feed into visits for their "a class" resorts. You can point to a load of examples of this in USA. Nobody living in CO or BC is using their epic pass to go ski in one of the epic Ohio resorts. But for those living in Ohio that fancy a trip out west epic pass is a no brainer.
Epic pass was £720 this year. Week pass in a big euro resort is around £300, season pass around £850. if you have the time and inclination I think the epic pass is one of the greatest deals going in skiing (along with lake Louise spring pass).
If they buy verbier pretty much every skier in Switzerland is going to buy the pass. Verbier, crans Montana, and adermatt unlimited skiing for £720. Plus free days at a bunch of other places.
In a perfect world Vail buys another 1 or 2 bigger resorts and then the other big euro resorts form a rival pass. Then we get unlimited skiing at a nice range of resorts for cheap.
But yes Vail = bad. Big corporations ruin skiing 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020,
A lot of the concern appears to be about ancillary things and not just the lift pass. For instance the way that a monopoly on ski school enables them to extract huge sums of money from users of the ski school whilst paying the instructors peanuts. Disallowing skinning in the resort when the area is important for ski touring. Low quality high priced food and drink etc.
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Surely the business model for Vail relies heavily on the none lift ticket sales? And because of the way Europe is set up, they'd need to buy all the restaurants on the mountain which will mainly be owned by land owners/farmers. Then the ski schools, you can't stop them using the mountain, could they restrict them from using the lifts though?
It seems a far more complicated idea than the US/Canada hills where they own everything including the land, businesses etc etc.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
In Whistler, the general view was that Epic people are, um, less accomplished than the guys they replaced, so they're not much of a worry for locals. I reckon you'll not be fighting with them for lines of Mont Gele. In Whistler "the positive" as investment - newer lifts with quicker transport up... allied with more people, so it kind of evens out. I guess "who wins" depends on one's precise interests.
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Yep, my whistler friends say the same thing. Village is busier, but more "tourist" than "skier" crowd. Less competition for a lot of the good stuff. As well as improving lifts Vail bought in the epic pass which significantly undercut the old pass price (I would know as I was there the season before!). So not only cheaper skiing, but gave the opportunity for many whistler locals to visit new places in N America - hard to justify buying more loft tickets when you already shelled out for a season pass.
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Unfortunately that's not really the case imho.
Whistler is much busier and more expensive now. That includes skiing. There is no noticeable upside in availability of powder stashes.
Hotels and lots of other things became even more expensive with things like 3 night minimus, most likely because the target market is now weekend skiers from the US with epic passes. This was the case somewhat before Vail but more local. Stronger US dollar may make this worse.
For example we used to be able to get a last minute hotel deal for Christmas at a pretty decent rate, now good luck finding somewhere for less than $1000 a night! 
On mountain food is crazy expensive. Not sure if it's better or worse as I haven't bought any in years! 
There are some upsides such as new lifts, but mostly these were necessary replacements and/or targeted at the summer - not a significant difference to skiing (harmony and emerald help being bigger).
Snowmaking also seems to be a bit more substantial.
Lift pass is cheaper in real terms than my pre vail WB pass.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| swskier wrote: |
Surely the business model for Vail relies heavily on the none lift ticket sales? And because of the way Europe is set up, they'd need to buy all the restaurants on the mountain which will mainly be owned by land owners/farmers. Then the ski schools, you can't stop them using the mountain, could they restrict them from using the lifts though?
It seems a far more complicated idea than the US/Canada hills where they own everything including the land, businesses etc etc. |
To be more accurate I believe Vail corporation in many of its US locations doesn't actually own the land, that belongs to the Federally owned US Forest Service who grant an exclusive lease to the corporation in exchange for payment.
In Europe suitably qualified ski instructors can teach their clients at any ski resort, that's why most European ski resorts have several differently owned ski schools in competition with each other (in addition to independent instructors). If Vail tried to restrict use of lifts to only those instructors working for a Vail corporation owned ski school I can envisage numerous legal challenges!
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@boarder2020, alas I don’t think you have a clue about skiing in switzerland if you think Verbier on a £700 pass wouldn’t massively increase skier numbers
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You know it makes sense.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
Surely the business model for Vail relies heavily on the none lift ticket sales? And because of the way Europe is set up, they'd need to buy all the restaurants on the mountain which will mainly be owned by land owners/farmers. Then the ski schools, you can't stop them using the mountain, could they restrict them from using the lifts though?
It seems a far more complicated idea than the US/Canada hills where they own everything including the land, businesses etc etc. |
To be more accurate I believe Vail corporation in many of its US locations doesn't actually own the land, that belongs to the Federally owned US Forest Service who grant an exclusive lease to the corporation in exchange for payment.
In Europe suitably qualified ski instructors can teach their clients at any ski resort, that's why most European ski resorts have several differently owned ski schools in competition with each other (in addition to independent instructors). If Vail tried to restrict use of lifts to only those instructors working for a Vail corporation owned ski school I can envisage numerous legal challenges! |
They can (and will) have dedicated lift lanes for their own ski school. No wait !
Other schools can go to the back of the cue with the rest of Epic Pass holders.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@T Bar, but is any of that a Vail thing or simply a north American thing? Most hills seem to have their own ski school. Pre Vail whistler had it's own. Vail still let extremely Canadian run their groups at whistler (afaik they are independent but I may be wrong).
Do ski instructors in Europe really make a good wage? Worth remembering the n American ones also get some fairly nice tips.
People skinning up pistes can be pretty dangerous. Vails policy that you can skin up but it has to be outside opening hours seems fair. Better than the likes of aspen charging $70 for an uphill pass (but aspen are so "core" and independent - says noone that's actually googled who owns them). Although I'm not even mad at aspen, it's pretty entitled that people think they should just be allowed free access to take advantage of grooming and avy control done by resorts.
"when the area is important for ski touring"
Which ski tourer in Colorado is interested in skinning up Vail?! Maybe you are getting it mixed up with Vail pass? But yeah there are plenty of good touring options in CO without needing to go near a resort.
Again expensive food is a ski resort thing in general. I was in Val d a few weeks back and it wasn't cheap! The food in n America does tend to be less "gourmet", but it's a different culture. Lunch is a quick burger and fries and back to skiing, Vs a nice sit down affair in Europe. If you think it's expensive just don't pay it - sandwich and some chocolate bars on the lift work fine.
Basically epic pass is a huge win if you ski a lot and don't need additional extras like food and lessons. Ski bums rejoice. If you are a one week a year skier and want the trimmings probably not the best. But as I've said before I'm not going to lose sleep over the holiday makers subsidising the ski bums, think of it as a loyalty program.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@boarder2020, I'm talking about Verbier being an important area for touring not Vail about which I have no idea .
Extremely Canadian was as far as I'm aware always a branch of the Whistler ski school.
Food is expensive on the mountains but where there is competition there is at least a decent product.
I am not an expert on ski instructor wages but I believe the pay in general is better in Europe than North America.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Do ski instructors in Europe really make a good wage? Worth remembering the n American ones also get some fairly nice tips. |
Friends in Verbier and Zermatt that were level 2/3 were on around 45 CHF an hour plus whatever tips they also get. So a decent bit more than in the US for a similar level of qualification.
Top level instructors i'd imagine would be on 60+ CHF an hour
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@swskier, yes, but I suspect comparing any like for like job you will find the swiss salary is much higher!
@T Bar, but why assume Vail would ban touring at verbier? It's certainly not been a defacto policy in other resorts they've bought. What is the policy in adermatt now? The set up of resorts is completely different, in N America where there is a black and white resort boundary it would be much easier to enforce. I don't see how you even do it at a European resort.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@boarder2020,
I'm not assuming Vail will ban touring, it is unknown I don't know what the legal situation is.
I am just pointing out it is a concern that people have.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Verbier is well run with a modern lift system, plenty of investment and the best terrain in the world. We certainly don’t want the Magic passers migrating to a cheap pass giving them access to Verbier, nor an influx of Americans, however Epic they think they are!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Verbier is well run with a modern lift system, plenty of investment and the best terrain in the world. We certainly don’t want the Magic passers migrating to a cheap pass giving them access to Verbier, nor an influx of Americans, however Epic they think they are! |
It's swings and roundabouts. Your day pass rate would become so high you will lose a lot of other custom.
It would make me laugh seeing how quick the magic passers jump ship though. After telling the world about how great it is that you get to ski all the quaint little resorts. Then as soon as one mega resort with great terrain is offered at the same price they will change their opinion.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Verbier is well run with a modern lift system, plenty of investment and the best terrain in the world. We certainly don’t want the Magic passers migrating to a cheap pass giving them access to Verbier, nor an influx of Americans, however Epic they think they are! |
It's swings and roundabouts. Your day pass rate would become so high you will lose a lot of other custom.
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No we won’t. The whole of Geneva, Lausanne, Riviera, Sion will buy an Epic pass and come to Verbier. Check out the impact of Villars / Glacier 3000 at the weekend since it went on Magic Pass. It’s totally different to Whistler where there’s nowhere else half decent within 5 hours so everyone from Vancouver skied there anyway
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
. So.... $1300 for a private lesson and the instructor receives $150 
