@MHskier, The change in the law is to make it apply to all roads in Savoie and Haute Savoie, not just mountain roads.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
really need all season/winter tyres or snow socks for grip and traction in powdery snow and then chains for when the road is highly compacted or icy.
My point that seems to have been missed is that snow socks duplicate the ability of winter and all season tyres (to a degree) - but don't have the ability of snow chains, to stop you slithering on full blown ice.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 25-10-23 15:55; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
MHskier wrote:
So here's a question - would the road from Thonon to Montriond near Morzine constitute a mountain road that requires chains? We're going at new year with 3psf all season tyres fitted and it feels like this route could work (and lower?) if we know there's weather or traffic issues climbing up from Cluses to Les Gets.
Would be unusual to have problems with 3psf tyres on that route but you never know. If you need them you need them!
Tyres are one big compromise, with the ideal tyre for the journey potentially varying hour to hour. For me in the 50weeks of driving to the alps has been a none issue for me and cars around me, so for the 1-2 weeks a year I am in the alps it doesn't currently tip the balance . Each to their own. It however is not an alternative to not driving to the conditions, and if that means dropping to 20kph then so beit. Also carrying chains/socks is one thing, being able to put them on should be the real requirement!
I do agree though that this is the new helmets and can see the balance tipping!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
France is now like Switzerland.
Hates car drivers.
Undercover rolling speedcameras to spy on you. Childish pollution stickers to ban you from the city your taxes already paid for. And mandatory snowtires or snowchains, even when there is no snow.
Getting more and more oppressive and unpleasant with every passing year.
After all it is free
After all it is free
MHskier wrote:
So here's a question - would the road from Thonon to Montriond near Morzine constitute a mountain road that requires chains?
You've clearly missed the main point of this thread - there is no definition of roads that do or do not require them. You need winter equipment between Novemnber and April regardless of the road or the weather conditions. A full list of affected ares, which includes the whole of Savoie and Haut Savoie, is available here https://pneus-hiver-obligatoires.fr/
But by the time you've got there you'll already have driven hundreds of km through areas where they are obligatory.
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@MHskier, just to elaborate on @Chaletbeauroc’s point: in previous years you’d find “chains obligatoire” signs at points where you were likely to need them and the gendarmes could insist you fit them - e.g. on the road to Avoriaz just above Morzine.
That zone has now been extended and dropped to cover e.g. most (all?) of the 2 Savoies. It doesn’t take a lot of snow at Geneva height to screw up traffic on summer tyres.
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Whitegold wrote:
France is now like Switzerland.
Hates car drivers.
Undercover rolling speedcameras to spy on you. Childish pollution stickers to ban you from the city your taxes already paid for. And mandatory snowtires or snowchains, even when there is no snow.
Getting more and more oppressive and unpleasant with every passing year.
Life is more and more about control, but the problem is the more control there is and the more people are told what to to do the less they think for themselves and the more they need to be told what to do, its and ever decreasing circle
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Whitegold wrote:
France is now like Switzerland.
Not quite, the law hasn't been passed yet so the police can't fine you for not having winter equipment in the boot (it hasn't passed the French equivalent of Royal Assent - obviously as they cut the kings head off the process is a bit different).
The part of it applying to a whole department has been found to be illegal by the courts so the whole thing may need to be redone.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Chaletbeauroc and @under a new name
Thanks for the link and clarification - clearly understand that now down to lake geneva level and will be getting some chains as well as the 3psf tyres.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
so in reality most here put on winter tyres for their annual 2 drives in the mountains. I am driving to Tignes December and appreciate that driving in winter tyres would make sense but in the numerous times I have driven to alps, the mountain roads have always been clear and not needed chains or snow tyres. Often the temps are only just below freezing and similar to winter conditions. Often the issue is in resort and outside parking. Do I seriously need to consider £1000 on set of winter tyres for 2 journeys up a mountain? Do people use their winter tyres in winter in the UK ?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
vegas007 wrote:
... Do people use their winter tyres in winter in the UK ?
I guess those people who buy things called "summer tyres" do exactly that.
Perhaps they have autumn and spring wheels too? Or maybe they don't get out from behind the keyboards much.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
vegas007 wrote:
so in reality most here put on winter tyres for their annual 2 drives in the mountains. I am driving to Tignes December and appreciate that driving in winter tyres would make sense but in the numerous times I have driven to alps, the mountain roads have always been clear and not needed chains or snow tyres. Often the temps are only just below freezing and similar to winter conditions. Often the issue is in resort and outside parking. Do I seriously need to consider £1000 on set of winter tyres for 2 journeys up a mountain? Do people use their winter tyres in winter in the UK ?
You'll be lucky if you don't need winter tyres driving to 2,100m in December. And remember you have 2 journeys down a mountain too. Far more people go off the edge going downhill than uphill.
If you can't justify the expense of a set of tyres, just buy two pairs of AutoSocks.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@vegas007, sometimes wintry weather descends down to the valleys and autoroutes.
For over 20 years (given frequent UK/Alps drives) I've had cars with one of the following:
1) Two sets of rims on a 4x4 principal car - one set with winter tyres, one with non. And switched them start & end of ski season.
2) Winter tyres - year round (for 4x4, secondary cars only used in wintry conditions, off-road, or for towing).
3) All season tyres, e.g. for 2 wheel drive cars used near mountains. With snow chain backup in winter.
Once you've witnessed the difference in handling, the additional cost is worth the reduced risk of serious accident.
And yes, they do tend to keep the roads clear leading to ski resorts, but that only tends to be in working hours. If you arrive late, say 10pm, and it starts snowing, it's a bit hairy deciding between the little devil on one shoulder "Yeah. Go for it. You're fine. The snow's still thin, there's only a mile to go." and the angel on the other "It's time to look for the next aire de chainage and put your chains on, though you would have probably reached the resort by now if you'd fitted winter tyres as I suggested."
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Apart from the cost of changing and storing tyres, having two sets of tyres that you alternate is no more expensive than having just one set that will be worn down in half the time.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Austrian Seagull wrote:
Apart from the cost of changing and storing tyres, having two sets of tyres that you alternate is no more expensive than having just one set that will be worn down in half the time.
Changing the rims over doesn't take that long to do at home.
But, yeah, it's much easier to have two cars: a high mileage runabout, and a low mileage 4x4 with winter tyres.
Apart from the cost of changing and storing tyres, having two sets of tyres that you alternate is no more expensive than having just one set that will be worn down in half the time.
I often see this logic used as justification for having two sets. You can make an argument for it but it does rather ignore the cash flow implication of the initial investment and if you don't plan on keeping the car long enough to get full use out of the second set you could argue that it doesn't really apply at all.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Crosbie wrote:
But, yeah, it's much easier to have two cars: a high mileage runabout, and a low mileage 4x4 with winter tyres.
Or just buy one AWD car that you're happy driving long distance and stick decent all-season tyres on it.
so in reality most here put on winter tyres for their annual 2 drives in the mountains. I am driving to Tignes December and appreciate that driving in winter tyres would make sense but in the numerous times I have driven to alps, the mountain roads have always been clear and not needed chains or snow tyres. Often the temps are only just below freezing and similar to winter conditions. Often the issue is in resort and outside parking. Do I seriously need to consider £1000 on set of winter tyres for 2 journeys up a mountain? Do people use their winter tyres in winter in the UK ?
No need for winter tyres, all season are fine and depending on which make arent that much more expensive than "normal" tyres, I have an isuzu dmax which has done 29,000 miles on a set of toyo M+S tyres so far and the fronts are 50% worn the back probably 60/65% these tyres are now £101 each mail order but I will change to cross climate when I need to replace mine as they are meant to be better in the rain and feul economy.
The main point I always say to people the real reason for using all season/ winter tyres is controled steering and braking going downhill, if you stop going uphill due to loss of grip then apart from annoying those behind its not a huge issue, if you cant steer or brake going downhill then you could hit a car in front or in the worse case go over the edge, is a couple of hundred quid at the most worth even considering against the cost of a very very small bump because you dont have decent tyres, it really is a very easy decision to make, Im not sure why this debate comes up every year
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@vegas007, I think many in the UK associate Winter Tyres with snow, whereas they're designed for temperatures below 7c, which happens a lot in the UK.
Like others I run All Season Tyres with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol and carry chains. For UK based with 1 trip I think that is sufficient
After all it is free
After all it is free
If you want a basis for comparison of what somone who daily Yes every singe day of the winter) drives in the Haute Savoie and I am quite typical. Snow tyres up front (Front wheel drive), all seasons in the rear (I don't currently have anywhere to store a spare pair of wheels or tyres) and two pairs of chains and shovel.
Last winter I needed my chains once to go 400m and I needed the shovel to put them on. Waiding or ski touring would have worked an unmodified 4x4 without chains would not have worked (I drove past 2 in the 400m).
I once had to have 2 goes at a hill that would have been one and done with 4x4 and snow tires.
My wife has a Suzuki Jimny that lives on M+S tires and also has two pairs of chains. If it won't go, you need an excavator or a snow blower, a regular plow will not survice.
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Another thing to remember with winter tyres is that it means your "summer" tyres will also last longer so the net cost will be a lot less than the purchase cost (unless you change your car often)
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
So tyre reviews on YouTube recently released his annual review of AS tyres and has thrown in a winter and summer for comparison,
You can even go on his website and choose your own weightings for wet, dry and snow to see what would score highest for you.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
AFAIK the Netherlands, Germany and Austria all have winter tyre requirements. I would think that everywhere in Europe will eventually have them.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@richb67, love the detail this guy goes into, also he very much recognises tyre decisions are a compromise.
The all season tyres seem to have come a long way. If I didn't enjoy a spirited drive quite so much then I would definitely be on all seasons now rather than my current "non winter/all season/snow/m+s/ gravel tyre" michelin PS5s (hope that is sufficient description for the tyre naming police)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm thinking of driving to Val Cenis for half term. Having not done this journey before I'm not sure of the route. Looking on Google maps it seems to be a gently rising route on good wide roads and a lack of tight hairpins like the road we previously drove on up to Plange Bellecote on winter tyres. I have since changed my car and now have a front wheel drive kia sportage with a brand new set of standard season(summer) Hancook tyres. I'm trying to weigh up weather the cost of a new set of Winters is worth the £5/600 expenditure for basically 2 journeys (out and return) as not planning to drive around the resort during the holiday, or just go on my current set of tyres with a set of chains/socks in the boot. Also anyone know what the half term traffic is like on this route? Thinking of doing bulk of driving on the Friday and staying near Chambery before driving to resort very early Saturday morning.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@daveqpr, summer tyres will lose grip even on a level road, let alone on a 'gentle' slope.
I once got stuck on a parking lot in front of the letting agency.
Get yourself snow socks, they are cheap and will get you out of trouble in 90% of the cases. Super easy to fit too.
I even drove in them uphil in shin high fresh snow without any struggle. The advantage over chains is you can drive on a freshly dusted or slightly iced road without that infernal noise.
Still get the chains for an unlikely event when conditions are really bad. Most of the time you won't need them, but when do need them you REALLY need them.
When the time comes to get a new set of tyres, get quality all season ones, like Michelin crossclimate. All the reviews show that they are up there with even top quality winter tyres.
I haven't used the socks since I got them. Ice, fresh snow, uphil, downhill - no problem.
For the chains, often your car manual will state that you need a separate, smaller, set of rims to increase the clearance. To work around that problem, simply get the front fitting chains, like RUD Centrax, Thule k summit, etc. They are more expensive but a) a LOT easier to fit b) save you the trouble of buying separate rims.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 29-10-23 13:35; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thinking of doing bulk of driving on the Friday and staying near Chambery before driving to resort very early Saturday morning.[/quote]
The drive between Chambery and Val Cenis is pretty easy. Motorway all the way to St Michel de Maurienne or Modane and then a gentle trip up the valley. There are a couple of sharp bends (nothing like the drive up to la Plagne )and a steepish rise out of Termignon but you would be fine with snow chains/socks as they are pretty good at keeping the main roads clear. Depending on where you are planning on staying in Val Cenis the side roads don’t get cleared very well so socks are possibly better for ease of getting on and off should you need.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
andmelffion wrote:
Thinking of doing bulk of driving on the Friday and staying near Chambery before driving to resort very early Saturday morning.
Can highly recommend this - we did it last year and the drive down on Friday was fairly quiet - roads were mostly clear and you could just cruise on down. Only busy point was getting lunch but other than that it was good. The drive up the mountain was then really easy in the morning on the Saturday before the rush of all the normal transfers etc.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
+1 for the Friday drive.
last few trips, we have driven out on the Friday and overnighted in Albertville, with a big shop in the Geant supermarket and have a meal. with a good nights sleep before an early Saturday morning trip up to the resort, which has been either Les Menuires or Val Thorens.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just make sure you book your Friday night accommodation in good time!
@terrygasson, there is a Decathlon and Aux Vieux Campeur on the same trading estate as the supermarket, which I think has recently become Intermarche. So an opportunity to buy any bits of kit you might have forgotten or want to replace.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Bassman, yes, i used the decathlon last season, as my eldest daughter needed some new goggles and got a pair cheaper there instead of in resort.
there is a similar type of shop to Halfords (cannot remember the shops name ) there as well, that i have used previously
valid point from @pam w, i tend to book the accommodation in Albertville ages before we intend to go, as the limited ones close to the mountains tend to book up really early.
booking.com is my tried and tested site for this
So here's a question - would the road from Thonon to Montriond near Morzine constitute a mountain road that requires chains? We're going at new year with 3psf all season tyres fitted and it feels like this route could work (and lower?) if we know there's weather or traffic issues climbing up from Cluses to Les Gets.
Would be unusual to have problems with 3psf tyres on that route but you never know. If you need them you need them!
You’ll be fine in 3psf and will not need to carry chains. Ad I understand it’s chains OR 3psf in zones indicated by road signs which are now erected. In any case I’ve had Michelin Cross Climate 1 and 2 for last 5 years and yet to have an issue driving to Châtel including going over Pas du Morgins (1370m) or driving to Pre La Joux in snow storms where others have stopped for chains.
I just returned from driving trip to Châtel this weekend and noticed there is a mandatory winterisation zone on the A40 after of Bourg en Bresse heading to Geneva.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
there is a similar type of shop to Halfords (cannot remember the shops name )
Feu Vert
After all it is free
After all it is free
@daveqpr, snow socks would be fine for 90% of conditions you are likely to come across and drive to the conditions rest of time. Having effectively ploughed the road up to Oz En Oisans late one night with the front splitter of my car (ground clearence was my limiting factor in my Meganne R26), I accept socks have their limits but I think you would be unlucky to find them. However still apply good snow driving principles (gaps and momentum whilst climbing), also whilst snow socks are a lot smoother than chains (tempting to drive faster) be very gentle on them and keep driving on black tarmac to an absolute minimum if you want to use the socks again. Also with modern forecasting / webcams etc you can more easily adapt in advance with the aid of a digital passenger e.g let's get lunch before we go up.
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So I cant even get all season tyres for my car. Have 19 plate X3 and they run run flats. So its winter tyres as a set or stick with tyres I have with chains.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
I don't think anybody makes run flat all-season tyres. But run flat is a choice, it's not compulsory. As far as I can see, all wheel/tyre sizes for an X3 are available in quality all-seasons except 21".
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I guess those people who buy things called "summer tyres" do exactly that.
) there as well, that i have used previously
