 Poster: A snowHead
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@JayRo, she doesn't have to 'renounce' anything, she could just make charitable donations with the money saved (as I do). In fact, when the winter payment first came in, the Government provided some suggestions of suitable charities when confirming the payment; that was a good idea, it's a pity the practice was discontinued.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Indeed. It would be absurd to "renounce" anything - especially all the tax free benefits we get just for being old - unless you thought that government made better choices about expenditure than you do yourself. This is a silly point which detracts from a sensible debate about priorities and policies.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w Once again, you sidestep the parts of the argument that don't fit your narrative.
I've called you out for stating categorically:
| pam w wrote: |
| There is NO logic in a free pass for people over a certain age - though "off peak" passes which could only be used at certain times and/or in certain weeks could make a lot of sense. |
I find this argument ridiculous. @73,000postpam w, has stated there is NO logic, therefore there is nothing to debate! Both @johnE, and myself have outlined some perfectly logical reasoning for why the lift co. might want to give out veteran passes but you have offered no counterpoint. And only issuing them off-peak is also nonsense. If the veterans are there in the grandparent child-minding capacity, peak times are most likely exactly when they are needed, not off peak.
| pam w wrote: |
| What proof would your theoretical lift pass company demand before deciding somebody was sufficiently Savoyard. |
Same as they use now, tax return or taxe d'habitation showing a 73 address as primary residence. Not difficult at all.
| pam w wrote: |
| And how can you assert with a straight face that the 3V has never made commercial decisions about ski pass pricing before this year? |
I didn't. I said this was the first year they've made a commercial decision about over 75s passes. If you want to split hairs that "commercial" means "engaged in commerce" then enjoy your pedantry. We both know I was referring to commercial in the sense of making a profit and this year they have prioritised profit from the over 75 demographic above customer satisfaction.
| pam w wrote: |
| I'd be interested (genuinely) to hear your justification for giving people financial concessions of any kind purely because of their age. |
Because they're physically incapable of working the same as a 40 year old and earning the same level of income? Because they did work all their life and paid mandatorily into a system that promised those benefits? Do they get a refund if the benefits they've already paid for are removed?
Maybe we should just go back to Victorian times and open some poor houses. We could probably get some retired civil servants to come round and distribute the Maundy Money every year while the peasants doff their caps.
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Your inference that because I argue that comfortably off older people (like me) shouldn't get free stuff I believe that the elderly should be sent to work houses is absurd. It's no fun having a debate with somebody who simply ignores the rules of logic and syntax. The reference to "Maundy Money" is spectacularly irrelevant. Bye.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
@johnE, and myself have outlined some perfectly logical reasoning for why the lift co.
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But that doesn't mean I support it or beleive that it is true; just that it is a possible explanation. It may, for example, just be a pure marketing gambit to give the impression that they are a caring organisation. Or perhaps they think that older people have the mental and physical capabilities of children, who are also given discounts. It really is just speculation on our part why they do it. Perhaps the lift companies themselves are the ones to ask.
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Because they're physically incapable of working the same as a 40 year old and earning the same level of income?
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I think Joe Biden may have something to say about this. Many of us pensioners in the UK have pensions exceeding median incomes. In fact 22% of households in the UK headed by a pensioner have a net worth exceeding one million pounds (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001hp5w). I have some doubts about what this actually means as they appear to have capitalised pension payments as a single captial sum, but this is not done for earnings. see https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/pensionwealthintheuk
There also lot of very poor pensioners. The argument is why do us wealthy ones get the same benefits as those most in need.
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@pam w And as always, when someone gives you a logical counter argument to your self-righteous assertions, you can't deal with it. Cheerio.
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@johnE, once again, I'm not disagreeing with your views, they're a reasonable counterpoint. I'm only really arguing for the locals that live in the area because they're the ones I feel some genuine sympathy for. I think it's pretty easy to argue that they pay their taxes to the local Mairie which then spends them on projects that boost the lift company's income either directly or indirectly. It's not a massive stretch to say that asking the lift company to give something back really isn't very different to my local library giving free exhibition entry to residents whilst charging non-residents.
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But surely most/all lift companies do 'give back' to locals, and seasonal workers? Season passes typically give you about 16 weeks skiing for only 3 to 4 times what tourists pay for a week. And then 3V give over 75s a 75% discount as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ecureuil, I can understand giving concessions to locals and seasonal workers, but have never understood why older people merit a concession on a ski pass, they are using up the same seat on the lifts as full paying people. My thought has always been that older people concession customers should not be allowed to use main lifts at peak times, ie before 10am (same principle as at my local gym) and therefore free up space for full paying customers at peak uplift time from the valleys. If they want to go up early pay the full lift pass price.
Also kids concessions fine if they are in ski school imv (they are the future punters and need to be encouraged), if not in ski school then again should pay full price - they also use a lift seat.
One price for all, I don't personally see why I should subsidise others.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
One price for all, I don't personally see why I should subsidise others. |
Doesn't public transport give cheap rates to people over a certain age?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Doesn't public transport give cheap rates to people over a certain age?
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I get a free bus pass, but can't use it in the morning rush hour. Round here, apart from school kids, elderlies are often the only people on the bus. So there's probably an argument in terms of enabling the service to continue, though I don't know how it works. Clearly government money but whether there's a net cost to the local authority, which issues them, I have no idea. My pass is not valid in Wales (even though I was born there and know the first five lines of Sospan Fach as Max Boyce memorably put it).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| If there's a welfare argument for providing free or reduced cost prices to poor Savoyards why is their age relevant? And why is it relevant whether they are Savoyards? Or from Paris, perhaps. Or Corsica? Or Stuttgart? Or Milan? |
Please keep up. They cannot give free passes just to locals because of discrimination laws. It's only relevant to Savoyards because they have supported the local tourist industry that made the lift company rich in the first place. You've already made the argument that tourists don't deserve free passes, now you're saying location's irrelevant??? How has a Milano contributed to Savoie productivity? |
well yes and nope.
e.g. In Tirol you could buy the TirolSnowcard with discount if you live and/or study in Tirol. This counts for Freizeit Tirol, or Tirol Regio Card.
On the other side an Austrian in Tirol , went to the court because he had to pay 2 Euro more, for entering a Swimming Pool Complex in Bayern.
So it they want the can make it. If this is legal or not, is another question.
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@Markymark29, I agree with you - see my comment further up the thread. I was just responding to the poster who was suggesting lift companies had an obligation to give something back to 'locals'.
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You know it makes sense.
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@davidof, lifts aren’t subsidised public transport they’re paid for by the users
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @davidof, lifts aren’t subsidised public transport they’re paid for by the users |
The original Courchevel lift system was built with money earmarked for the department's public transport infrastructure; the Savoie Electrobus.
From the 1920s to the 1960s you could travel all over the Savoie on environmentally friendly trolleybuses
money for this project was used for lift infrastructure in the Three Valleys as it was considered public transport, so the ski lifts in Courchevel were subsidised by the department.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Euro lift companies are greedy for cash.
They've seen the megabucks in North America.
Those senior passes are only going one way in price... up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Euro lift companies are greedy for cash.
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Euro lift companies are rational commercial entities. What happens to lift pass prices - for everybody - will depend on their assessment of demand elasticities on the part of different groups of users. One of these days (and perhaps it's happening already in some places) they will push up prices in school holidays, when there is inelastic demand. Accommodation and airfare prices already reflect these elasticities, and so do ski school prices, in varying degrees. Paying bums on seats is what counts - and most of my skiing in France, for many years, was on lifts with only a small minority of seats with bums. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for the update on bums.
Yes, dynamic lift prices have long been a thing in the US.
Snowbowl, Arizona, topped $300 for a 1-day ticket after a big puke and heavy ski traffic in Jan 2023.
Coming soon to Europe, no doubt.
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Lift prices for the over 75s do have an effect on resorts...I am spending 3 weeks in France this year (Paradiski and L2A ) and not 3 weeks in Italy mainly because of the advantageous lift pass ..i will be able to spend my money in the resorts ...a €1300 saving goes a long way to making this affordable ....and yes I am over 75
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DaveD, I'm sure, so would I in your shoes...but that's an argument for giving free lift passes to everyone so they all spend their money in French restaurants and shops. Unfortunately, the lift companies would all go bust very quickly.
I fail to see why a section of the population who now have more (on average) disposable income than younger households should get a freebie which is ultimately paid for by that same younger population. The days when all pensioners were as poor as church mice are well gone.
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@Whitegold, Many of the lift companies in France do not own the lifts(nor the pistes) as is common in North America. Often the Commune own the lifts and the lift companies have a licence to operate them. Reinvestment is controlled by The Marie. This means they cannot be turned into a ‘cash cow’. Likewise pricing structures and ultimately profit levels are moderated by the Marie.
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@snowhound..............the lift companies do not seem to be all going bankrupt and I can't imagine that the percentage of users over 75 even reaches single figures are you just envious of people getting something back from that they've contributed to over a lifetime 
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I meant they'd go bankrupt if everyone got the same freebie as the over 75s.
I am not sure how you think over 75s have deserved a freebie because they've bought a lift pass every year previously. I think you're getting lift passes mixed up with the state pension.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have qualified have a free lft pass in France for 4 years now. Interesting to see the various arguments on here but I assume the the lift companies, who again I assume set the price structure, are not charitable organisations. Whoever makes the decisions within the companies must have decided that there is some benefit to encouraging old farts to visit their resort and perhaps bring their children/grandchildren and other family members. @DaveD, makes a very valid argument as very little discounts given to older skiers in Austria.
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| peter w wrote: |
| Ias very little discounts given to older skiers in Austria. |
I really think that makes my point ....I ...and others like me ( ther can't be that many) are spending our ..according to snowhound ..vast ..disposable incomes there and not in Italy or Austria
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
getting something back from that they've contributed to over a lifetime
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People who buy ski passes are not "contributors", they are customers. Should I get reductions in Waitrose because I've spent a fortune there for 25 years? I do have a loyalty card, with reductions, but anyone can get that, no qualifications needed. And I've not heard of any ski pass offers which require people to prove how much they've "contributed" to that resort over a lifetime. By that criterion the vast majority of resorts should give me nothing, as I've never been there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, agreed, which is why I disagree that concessions should apply, why should I be subsidising old folks who have more disposable income than myself is my view. One price for all (airlines principle), it works.
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The age demographic of skiers is changing. I think I've seen figures from the US suggesting that the proportion aged 65+ has increased from around 2.5% to 7.5% in the past 20 years. No reason to think it is not similar in Europe. Figures for over-75s will obviously be lower in absolute terms, but could still be a threefold increase, or even more.
So what used to be a fairly cheap concession for the lift companies (reduced pass above X, and then free above Y) has now become something worth serious money to them. I suspect free passes will be phased out everywhere in coming years.
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You know it makes sense.
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So no concessions for kids then ?@Markymark29,
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Euro lift companies are greedy for cash.
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Euro lift companies are rational commercial entities. What happens to lift pass prices - for everybody - will depend on their assessment of demand elasticities on the part of different groups of users. One of these days (and perhaps it's happening already in some places) they will push up prices in school holidays, when there is inelastic demand. Accommodation and airfare prices already reflect these elasticities, and so do ski school prices, in varying degrees. Paying bums on seats is what counts - and most of my skiing in France, for many years, was on lifts with only a small minority of seats with bums. |
Yes this is my fear too - I've no factual evidence, but it feels like the customer loses big time in these models, as while there may be cheaper times to ski, the overall average price goes up, and they can hide it within the model so it's hard to tell. So you'll either pay a little bit less, the same or a hell of a lot more. Uber seem to specialise in this - the standard price becomes their starting point, and it only increases from there with demand.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@DaveD, Like I said somewhere above if kids are in ski school or locals of all ages, or workers then yes, if not no. Why should kids who take up a full seat on lifts pay less than me who pays in full and subsidises them?
Off topic but - I've never understood why ski lift companies don't pre-sell their ski passes based on occupancy like airlines do, so for example if they pre-sell and they want to sell 25,000 per week at that, they sell say first 8,000 at say 10-15% discount, next 5,000 at say 5%, remainder prior to the day at 2.5% and then on the day at 350€ +say 10%, and it sits on your mobile phone like a barcode train ticket rather than in one's pocket.....(I know that this maths doesn't work but its more the principle I'm suggesting) and it'd be good for their cashflow. This may happen in some resorts but not the ones I use.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Markymark29, Indeed why have family passes and other complex ticketing arrangements. Probably because the lift company makes more money that way overall.
I cannot see any merit in your idea of selling some tickets at different prices depending on how many have been sold. As I see it the tour operators and others will buy them all up immediately to resell at a profit later.
Lift passes are indeed discounted at the start and end of the season.
Now the idea of having a bar code on a mobile to be scanned at the lift is really a non starter. First of all who wants to get a phone out at the barrier, even if they have one that is. Perhaps they could be printed on a piece of card that you can hang by string around your neck.
With the current rfid cards lots more could be done with pricing but why bother.
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@johnE, bits of card around the neck remind me of the days of lift passes on elastic stuff, or attached to something and you pulled the pass out, but if you weren’t careful they pinged up in your face.
Back on topic my OH is skiing free, or for just a bit, in France this winter, I have one year to go before qualifying for ‘free’ passes. We skied in Austria and Italy last year as well as France but no sign of free passes there, and I don’t think we have either Austria or Italy in the plans this year - yet.
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I'd get free passes in some places and I'd be only too pleased to pocket the freebie. But that doesn't mean I could put up an argument that, on grounds of equity, I should get one. Selling passes cheaper at off peak times might make sense - it would depend on the elasticities but when you spend days skiing empty pistes with empty lifts you can't help being thankful that "they" have not yet come up with any smart pricing ideas which would put more bums on the seats.
Talk of bringing your phone out at the barrier is a bit far-fetched. The smart cards we now all use could be loaded with all kinds of information and no doubt produce masses of data which could be used to work out who's using what and inform smarter pricing.
There are some contrasting emotional messages in this thread. Some people see lift companies as ruthless commercial greedy things, others see them as something to which they like to "contribute" and are happy to see some of their "contribution" going to help other skiers, defined in some way (kids, old people, families, etc).
In the resorts I'm familiar with there are only miserly concessions for anyone buying a week's pass. Not much reduction for kids, families or geriatrics.
Airline pricing does not distinguish between young and old, but is massively flexible on other grounds. There's plenty of evidence on SHs that people do change their holiday plans (or book very early) to get cheap flights. They even spend ages, in the context of a very expensive family trip, agonising over saving the price of a few drinks apiece by avoiding paying for a Swiss motorway vignette!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd get free passes in some places and I'd be only too pleased to pocket the freebie. But that doesn't mean I could put up an argument that, on grounds of equity, I should get one. Selling passes cheaper at off peak times might make sense - it would depend on the elasticities but when you spend days skiing empty pistes with empty lifts you can't help being thankful that "they" have not yet come up with any smart pricing ideas which would put more bums on the seats.
Talk of bringing your phone out at the barrier is a bit far-fetched. The smart cards we now all use could be loaded with all kinds of information and no doubt produce masses of data which could be used to work out who's using what and inform smarter pricing.
There are some contrasting emotional messages in this thread. Some people see lift companies as ruthless commercial greedy things, others see them as something to which they like to "contribute" and are happy to see some of their "contribution" going to help other skiers, defined in some way (kids, old people, families, etc).
In the resorts I'm familiar with there are only miserly concessions for anyone buying a week's pass. Not much reduction for kids, families or geriatrics.
Airline pricing does not distinguish between young and old, but is massively flexible on other grounds. There's plenty of evidence on SHs that people do change their holiday plans (or book very early) to get cheap flights. They even spend ages, in the context of a very expensive family trip, agonising over saving the price of a few drinks apiece by avoiding paying for a Swiss motorway vignette!
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In 2021/2022 the 3V season passes were for the very first time valid for the winter season only and not the 2022 Summer Season. After what I understand were numerous complaints to the lift companies including from myself the 2022/2023 passes were valid in the summer again. Not sure what is happening for 2024. It is good they did listen to public opinion.
Single lift charges were also introduced for Masse and Cime Carron in the summer, they are no doubt looking at every possibility to increase profits. I think after Covid they may not be flushed with cash which may be the reason two new 3V lift projects originally scheduled to start this summer did not.
If enough people make representations then there is always a slim chance they may in future reconsider although I think there is more revenue involved for the over 75’s.
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FAQ
