Skiing in fresh snow and flat light

A snowHead

Hi everyone!

I don't post much so forgive me if this has come up before or recently.

I'm an intermediate skier, stick to groomers all the time and can tackle any blue/red, however historically I've had problems when skiing in fresh/falling snow where I find I tend to lose control of my skis a little and find it much more taxing on my legs. I was wondering if anyone has any tips on how I can learn to enjoy these sort of conditions in the future or maybe point to some trusted online resource with some pointers? Pretty sure I'm a much better skier these days but haven't had the opportunity to practise this on holidays in recent years due to being blessed with bluebird days.

Linked to this, I've also suffered from some partial snow-blindness from flat light in the previous years. I've got some Smith I/O goggles with interchangeable lenses but the low light blue one (whatever you call it) hasn't really helped a huge amount with the encroaching tv static-effect i get in my vision on those days where the clouds meet the piste. Other than the usual "head to the trees!" technique, does anyone have advice or similar experience on how they cope with this?

I've got three days solo in the 3 Valleys from 12th March so plenty of terrain to pick which I'm very familiar with (my third visit to the area), but staying in Les Menuires means my valley is largely tree-less and unbelievably, there's now an increasingly high chance of some heavy snow fall over the duration of my stay!

I can't really afford to spend money on a lesson when there but I'm a good visual learner so hoping to gather some tips to make the most of my time I get to ski this year (I wish i had more time but don't we all) and maybe delve into some mild off piste once I'm comfortable.

Thanks for any help you might be able to offer and apologies for the ramble!

A snowHead

Most likely sequence of events is that in poor light you tend to lean back and/or stand up straighter, in a natural reaction as we all try to shy away from 'danger' which in this case is subconsciously perceived as being downhill, which in these conditions is largely an unknown.

If you'd normally happily ski the same slopes in good control then it's clearly not a technical issue, but a psychological one, which you probably won't be surprised to learn is really very common. Fear of the unknown is natural to us all.

How to conquer it? Well it's not a panacea, but in such cases I'll try to encourage people to get more used to skiing by feel rather than relying on sight. General technique needs to be in place first, of course, which in this case usually means the ability to perform controlled slow round turns, but then we can progress to the point where you're not using visual input to decide when to start the next turn, but just getting the feel of speed and gradient (i.e. you've started to turn uphill and are slowing down). Once they can do this I'll try to get them to close their eyes briefly while they make the turn, then for longer, until they can actually do it blindfold for a turn or two. (All the above practiced in good light conditions.)

Of course, it's not always as easy as that, but once you get someone used to being able to feel their way around a turn their fear of poor visibility can be massively alleviated. And if it comes back when they can't see very much, ask them to close their eyes again as a reminder of how little visual input they actually need.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Skiing in these conditions also gives a real insight into how mind-blowingly amazing the partially sighted skiers at the Winter Para-games are.

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As @Chaletbeauroc says above. But another thing I do in flat light is encourage skiers to use their poles a little like a kid has stabilisers on the side of the back wheel of their bike when they start out. Don’t ‘lean’ on the poles but rather lightly drag em to your side to help the brain feel what is up/down/forwards/backwards etc and it should also lower your centre of gravity somewhat to help feel more ‘robust’ on the ‘unknown’ coming up.

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@brownbown, You are definitely not alone, many skiers have similar issues. When conditions are less than perfect then the wheels come off to some extent. And it is clear that you enjoy your skiing, and want to improve, which is great!

What is true is that lessons really are the answer if you want to become a better skier. From your description your current level is advanced beginner/early intermediate. It is very common to reach a sort of plateau where you can enjoy the pistes in good conditions but are not improving and more challenging slopes/conditions are problematic for you. The technique needed to ski the conditions you describe are no different to those needed on a firm piste when visibility is perfect. In short the conditions are exposing your core technique and that is what you need to work on. Lessons are really the only effective way to do this. If cost is an issue then maybe in the future look at group lessons, in fact that might be an even better option for you as you will see how many others are in your position!

Specifically on losing control of your skis and your legs getting tired, two things are probably happening. You get a bit of fear, caused by the conditions, and start leaning back more than you do normally (tired legs). And you are not progressively weighting the downhill ski through the turn (losing control of the skis). Start every day, first run, regardless of when you last skied by lifting the inside ski off the snow during the turn. Try and do this earlier and earlier in the turn. And check if when you lift the ski whether it is pointing tip down or tip up. Your goal is tip down, as that means your weight is properly balanced and forward. If you do that first run every time you should find you find your balance and ski better for the rest of the day. I am an instructor, and my family are all pretty advanced skiers, and we do this every time. It is something that will stand you in good stead as you progress.

On the flat light this is also very common. The answer again is lessons I am afraid! You can also research if a different goggle will help, but flat light will always be flat light! You need to learn to "ski with your feet" by which I mean relying on the information transmitted from your feet and being able to adjust to the terrain on that basis.

Best advice I can give you is look to do a week of group lessons. Private lessons may help you advance a bit more quickly but at your level group lessons also have some advantages. Good luck!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I thought I'd added another bit to my previous post, but I must have not hit save...

I vividly remember the first time, many years ago, that I ever skied in fresh powder without getting out of control, it was in such poor visibility that I literally could not see my skis. As such going very slowly and cautiously, but then when the vis improved a little and I suddenly realised I'd just skied a couple of hundred metres in fresh snow it was a real eye-opener. Pun intended.

Really made me realise that we don't always need to see what our skis are doing, and that removing that input can sometimes be advantageous - the brain can be quite good at using other senses when one of them is removed.

And Steve's point about using your poles as a feeler is also a very good additional sensory input. You know that point when you sometimes can't tell if you're still moving or not?

After all it is free

Funniest one for me was coming down from Grattalu way down Merles in Tignes a number of years back in awful light - we had decided to call it a day as it started to snow heavily and it was predicted to get a lot worse - so we were making our way back to Lac and a well deserved beer.

The conditions, already bad went total whiteout. I couldnt see anyone else, and I "thought" I had stopped when in fact I was still moving and went headfirst over the edge of the piste down a small incline and into a pile of snow.

Most amusing - ultimately - once I had dug myself and my skis out...........but it can be incredibly difficult, even if you have experienced these conditions many times.

Always worth learning which of the piste markers should be on your right or left in these situations too.........

In flat light on open pistes if you can ... ski by the edge of the piste and use the marker poles for visual reference and ski down their line, one to the other (gives gradient and direction).poles are usually marked differently depending on which side of the piste they are. . Keep at it

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My thoughts would be:

1. Listen to@Chaletbeauroc and @Zikomo

2. Make sure you have a good high contrast, low light lens

3. IME. The biggest problem with tired legs is "hanging back", as a reaction to not being able to see properly. On the other hand, you don't want to be too far forward either. In other words you need to be balanced over your feet.....really concentrate on what you are feeling through your feet and where exactly your weight is. It is good to get forward and across at the start of the turn for commitment, but then your weight should be over the arch of your foot.

With the soft snow, it is all too easy to be overly aggressive, rather than letting the turn take a little longer, in a smooth S-shape....this is also tiring, especially if you are all tensed up.

4. The issue of control is likely to be a variety of factors:

i) Weight too far back
ii) If you maintained control on hard piste through skidding, this is much more difficult with fresh snow on the piste (especially where it forms moguls and is a mixture of soft, with ice in places where the soft is scrapped off). The much better solution is through turn shape, where you hang onto your turns longer, by steering the skis more uphill. Always use smooth, patient S shapes, not Z shapes
iii) Balance over the outside ski and don't lean in.
iv) Have skis wide enough for balance, but not too wide.

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Thanks so much for the quick replies, wasn't expecting this much!

To answer one question - I'm a freshly turned 38 year old, which basically means I've been doing regular workouts before each ski holiday for the last few years after I learned the hard way that my stamina isn't what it used to be - this made a WORLD of difference.

I think psychology is actually the sticking point here - I'm a much better skier than when I last experienced this and I think I'm just nervous (and a little gutted) that the long range forecast for my small break is heavy snow! I'm expecting it to change up a little but the current weather models are increasingly showing some major dumpage might be occurring, as is the buzz on the forum at the moment.

One of the things I never got was the need to sort of "bounce" more into turns when skiing in heavier snow, I'm really excited to have the opportunity to practise this more! In the past I'd skied into some mild off piste and just came to a halt after a short while Laughing

put me off trying again as I don't get much to time to ski year on year and prefer to stick with what I'm comfortable with so I can get my moneys worth!

Losing my group that I used to go skiing with hasn't helped as we used to give each other feedback and encouragement, all my trips are solo these days! No one's particular fault, other than them all having bloody kids and changing priorities

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Also using marker poles! Hadn't considered this amazingly!

Also weight over the arch of my foot has made a noticeable difference at moments over the last few years, thanks @Old Fartbag (?!). @zikomo thanks so much for the expanded tips & tricks, I'm a little beyond the early intermediate i'd say as I'm confidently carving, albeit with probably poor form and my quick turns aren't that great - this issue in discussion is absolutely my one major hangup that's holding me back.

To be more specific, in whiteout conditions (above the tree line) i tend to get snow blindness - best way to describe it is an effect like TV static that comes in from the edges of my vision and the more I'm unable to focus on something that isn't white the more it comes in until I'm totally blind and have to close my eyes for 5-10 minutes sometimes. It's quite alarming.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Came here to mention the use of poles, but it's already been covered!

Poles as well as making sure you in a nice dynamic body position, ankles and knees flexed, that way when you inevitably hit a bump you can't see you're in a good position to recover.

We spent 2/3's of our level 2 instructor course back in December skiing in crappy conditions not being able to see much, and it really does come down to just accepting the conditions, recognising you won't be able to ski like you can in good light, and just practise. If you can ski those rubbish conditions, it makes nice conditions so much easier!

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@brownbown, A week of morning lessons would not at all be a waste of your holiday! Adult lessons are normally great fun, with like-minded people. Most people really enjoy sharing the experience. Given you are self-taught I am even more convinced this would not just be a good investment but also that you would enjoy it.

I started skiing when a friend took me, aged 21, to Klosters and abandoned me at a chair lift next to a blue slope each morning. I then skied with my girlfriend (now wife) on ski holidays and in Scotland doing the best I could to learn from her. At that point I could ski pretty much any groomed slope with what I thought was quite good control. I have since spent a huge amount of money, effort and time to correct that mistake! Seriously, it was harder and more expensive to go back and fix all the terrible habits and techniques I had developed than if I had simply learnt properly in the first place, And while I am now an instructor and pretty advanced skier, I have had to accept that I will never be quite as good as I could have been. I am, however, probably stronger on the technical side from having to "re-learn" when more mature than most. And in some ways I think it has made me a better teacher. So my advice is based on very personal experience!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

If you are off solo skiing it would be the ideal time to get a few one on one or small group "lessons". You say you are stubborn and see lessons as a waste of holiday ski time. Lessons aren't hours of standing around waiting for others or drills on the beginner slope. I would guess that with the right instructor you may well have the best and most informative three days skiing you've ever had ... You're on your own ? Get some reccomendations off of here and book some.

After all it is free

If you're concerned about "wasting time in lessons" just pay for a 1-2-1 morning with an instructor. It'll give you stuff to work on, and cost no more than a week of group lessons. You'll also have the rest of your time not in lessons.

But lessons is definitely the answer! Laughing

I am not as sold on lessons as some but maybe that's confirmation bias as aside from one private I only did lessons the first two weeks I skied. And this problem is a common one which can be quite difficult, even for the experienced. I mean I have techniques, mental and physical, to get through it but I wouldn't say I ever feel that comfortable. I would question if that is even possible in really poor vis conditions.

That said if you have no lessons at all.... and others have said could be handy if you are solo.

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I also agree with getting 1 on 1 lessons, the few hours with an instructor will answer a lot of your questions, and you will have drills to practice, and will find yourself enjoying your skiing even more.

You know it makes sense.

Lessons are the key, the closed eye skiing drill mentioned by @zikomo was an effective and fun learning tool for me. Although I would only ever do it in a lesson with an instructor guiding me (I wouldn't want to end up in a heap with some other innocent party).

I'd expect there to be plenty of last minute availability for private lessons in 3V around 12 March. If so you could always specifically book a lesson if you get a whiteout day, that sounds like it would give you a better experience as well as helping with the technique.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Lessons are always going to be at least part of the answer, but the OP seems to have discounted that, at least in the short term.

Borrowing from the now rather ancient “The inner game of skiing”, I have found over the years that two of the tips contained in its pages work for me.

First singing (to yourself or out loud if you have the confidence). Something that works with your regular skiing rhythm and keeps you on a consistent pattern of turns. If you sing out loud you get some strange looks from others. If you practice in good conditions then apply in poor it seems to work, for me at least. As others have suggested skiing close to piste markers will help and assuming consistency of marking combining singing with the spacing of the poles is even better.

Second “Having fun in the sun”, that is that rather than allowing the conditions to dent your confidence before you even start imagine how you would be skiing if it was a bluebird day. I find it helps in adopting a more positive stance and less defensive attitude and position.

Of course these things are not fool proof and need to work for the way you are, not just in skiing but in life. They fit I. With the visualisation techniques you see ski racers and other sports people engaging in before they race or go on the field of play. They also benefit from some external feedback (ideally from a professional) but then we are back to lessons.

Neither work for everyone and Mrs SL thinks it’s barmy, but have a think about or see if you can get an old copy of the book in the nearest Oxfam.

A snowHead

I didn't bother with lessons. Ski lessons were all about snowploughing and "badges", which I'd no interest in. The one snowboard lesson I took... I rode rings around the hapless instructor chap with all his badges and felt bad for him. Most people take lessons, mind, although most of them don't succeed with that: they're mostly "intermediate" and never learn to ski. It depends on the individual. It's thread drift as the OP didn't want more lessons.

Well, I think if you can ski well then you can deal with poor/ low light better. Broadly you need a correct stance. Rockered skis may help in powder at least if your stance isn't good. There are some conditions which no one likes to ski/ ride in, and no amount of skill fixes that.

General "tips" would be just to ski well, which probably doesn't help. You know, correct stance, weight in the right place, all that stuff. Tactical things are obvious - ride in or near trees for the contrast; look at the light and figure out where it's going to be best; pick slopes you know don't have bumps; look at the forecast and adjust your schedule to match; use patrol lines, piste markers, people, and lifts for "reference".

In the back country, the best approach is to send a sucker down first, to set a track. Once there's a track in fresh snow, it's much easier to see where the surface is. Watch the person in front of you - if they fall over, or suddenly disappear, then you know there's something you need to be careful of before you get to it.

Good balance and spatial awareness helps, but mostly it's "a trick" in that you try to work out roughly where you are, and soak up what you can't see with good stance. And then retire to the cafe if it's really bad.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Bumps in new snow and zero visibility continue to be very hard. Best to do lots of small turns. All so much easier if you ski close behind someone else. Its what part of what you pay a guide or teacher for, and even they fall in completely flat light (going into holes and off edges etc).

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Some really good tips on this thread, thanks.

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Thread revival….(from short sleep rather than long coma) …

For a long time I had problems with zero viz and sometimes flat light. What did it feel like?
Well…basically a bit worrying (head stuff) and every few turns really fluffed things (technique).
It was turn turn turn Arrrgggg stop. Repeat.

So…

Already had excellent low light goggles (oakley hi yellow, hi pink Prizm and rose prizm)

Spent time diagnosing problem.
Answer = slight backward movement of centre of mass combined with insufficient speed control; the moment speed got up, the defence mechanism kicked in and my centre of mass just went back slightly, but enough to wreck technique.

Entirely automatic. Deep in the brain defence mechanism.

Solution = really work on forward pressure, treat each turn as a small jump turn and keep speed down.
Suppress anxiety to zero. Press forward, stay fluid, absorb each bump and impact.

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@valais2, or just do lots of short turns ...

@Mother hucker, completely agree about keep going. My OH, who is very competent, stopped at the side (gallantly waiting for me, just behind him) when we were working our way back in complete white out a couple of weeks ago, and then just sat down. Hopped up pretty quickly but it was that weird feeling of not quite knowing where you are.

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Skiing in fresh snow and flat light

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