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The collapse of school skiing

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Many families go skiing, but traditionally a major stimulus to our sport has been school groups enjoying the mountains. So it's pretty shocking to see the degree to which school skiing has slumped in the past 25 years.

Here's some data, courtesy of 'The Ski and Snowboard Industry Report', which states its sources as: "tour operators' own statistics, AC Nielson's TravelTrack, British ski and snowboard assocation data, tourist office figures, and travel agency feedback. The figures quoted cannot therefore be taken as absolute". Here are the numbers of school skiers and boarders for four winters:

1980-1 550,000
1990-1 110,000
2000-1 130,000
2002-3 123,000

Hence, an 80 per cent slump in the market in the 1980s, and hardly any recovery since then. I imagine the key factors are schools wanting to avoid liability by taking groups, and the big squeeze on parents (and schools for that matter) taking holidays in term time.

Will skiing enjoy sufficient new blood with statistics like these? I guess the influx of new young Scottish skiers has slumped too, mainly due to the unreliable winters. Back in the 1970s I recall thousands of kids on Cairngorm.
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When my sons changed schools,their scholl did take the children on ski trips, but by the time they were old enough they had stopped.
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I went on at least one school trip every year I was there (until 2002), they were always brilliant. My brother is at the same school and I believe they have stopped the trips due to a lack of teachers willing to brave the red tape involved.
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I think there may be an interplay of a few factors going on here.

Yes the rise of litigation culture has definately made schools more wary of the more adventurous extra-curicular activities.
The imposition of greater systems of reporting/measuring on the education system as a whole has meant that most schools are run now with 'just enough' staff and find it hard to manage with a few away at a time(but there are 'real' measured improvements in performance/efficiency rolling eyes ).
Further to this the staff themselves are reporting and being measured more and have far less time to organise such things.
A greater leaning toward political correctness means that many schools, as a matter of policy, do not organise trips from which some pupils would be excluded on grounds of cost - skiing with it's 'elitist' heritage would have been one of the first to go.
I expect a great many of the parents of first time skiers in the 80's had never even considered going themselves but were happy to give their kids what seemed at the time, to be the chance of a lifetime. These days, with those 80's kids now parents, I expect many more kids ski with their parents.
And finally, bean counters now rule education and the benefits of skiing are beyond measure (as we all know).
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I have school to thank for my interest in skiing. My parents had to dig deep financially to send me on the school skiing trip when I was 12; undoubtedly we would not have gone on a family ski holiday - it just wasn't part of the culture where I grew up (and probably still isn't). Skiing was the only sporting activity where I was better than all the other kids, which gave me a huge boost to my confidence (I was very shy as a kid). I think my parents must have seen that in me, so they sent me off on another four or five skiing holidays before I left school. Looking back I'm not sure how they afforded it, particularly as my sister went skiing with school as well, although like most self-centred kids I just took it for granted at the time. Sadly the school stopped organising skiing trips a few years after I left, for the reasons that David posted plus the teacher who did most of the work moved to another school. This is a great shame as skiing has the reputation where I grew up (S. Wales valleys) as a pastime for the Sloane set of Henrys and Henriettas (no offence intended to any SnowHead called Henry or Henrietta, of course).

Regards

Rob
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admin, all good stuff. Well put. But it is still sad that the numbers are down so much on the 80s. In 89, 2 of my kids went on a school trip skiing in Cyprus (from Q8 - and no I haven't been here since then). Something clearly didn't impress them as they've never shown any interest in the sport since. But at least they had a chance to try it.
Quote:

Will skiing enjoy sufficient new blood with statistics like these?

We saw on another thread that the numbers of Brits skiing abroad are steadily rising and since a proportion of these are kids I don't think we have to worry too much on that score as regards 'recreational skiers'. The lack of snow in Scotland these days must however have had a big impact on the budding Bells and the like. Boarding might have been a greater risk to the numbers of young skiers taking up the sport but I believe it has 'plateaued' or might even be dropping slightly in popularity?
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admin wrote:
A greater leaning toward political correctness means that many schools, as a matter of policy, do not organise trips from which some pupils would be excluded on grounds of cost - skiing with it's 'elitist' heritage would have been one of the first to go.
.../...
And finally, bean counters now rule education and the benefits of skiing are beyond measure (as we all know).

The legacy of an Americanised system which abhors the notion of public money being spent on social projects, community 'support' structures. Local and regional subsidies in France mean that virtually all clubs/school trips, holiday period leisure centres etc, are easily within the reach of the majority of parents. The range of leisure activities and sports clubs available to children and adults in a French village is considerably more extensive and accessible in terms of cost than that of a community of similar size in the UK.

Yes, taxes are higher. I don't hear many people in France complaining though.
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I'd love to take some of my students on a skiing holiday, but you want to see the amount of paperwork involved in taking them 1.5hrs down the road to Alton Towers for a day. Each one has to fill in a consent form, and get it back to you!! I have to complete a full risk assessment for every possible eventuality, and I have to be able to offer it to all students, so have to budget in for the 1 to 1 support for a student with autism etc etc.

For a skiing trip, I would then have to give up a week of my holiday, to work free of charge for 24hrs a day - maybe not getting more than an hour or two on the slopes.....especially if someone breaks their leg on day 1.

I'd do it...I'm young, and don't have home commitments. But if you are a teacher who has their own kids to take care of in holidays, and doesn't fancy the hassle....I can understand why they wouldn't want to.
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When I was at school (late 70s, early 80s), the only children who were offered the opportunity to go on the school skiing trips were those who were good at sports already, i.e. the tennis/gymnastic/atheletic bunch. The rest of us only found out about the trips when the photographs were posted on the notice boards. I'd regard this as a form of elitism, albeit not a money-based one. I'm sure that many snowHeads were not natural sporty types in their school days. Does anyone care to comment?
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I was rubbish at football and by the time the ball came my way in cricket, I was off in another world. There wasn't much else on at skoOL except the odd cross country run. I did OK at them because U just cleared of on your own and got on with it.
However, at sixth form college, we had windsurfing as one of our games options (for a small fee). It was that PE teacher who took us all skiing the first time - it was a really good price too if I remember - my Mum paid some out of the houskeeping and I paid some out of my playground protection racket... or my paper round or something. Hmm, what a decent chap that PE teacher was: I suppose, indirectly, it's his fault we're here now snowHead
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Vic Dennis, I was at school at the same time but have a different experience. The school skiing trips were open to all, with a range of sporting and non-sporting types taking part. It was interesting that there was no correlation between skiing success and sporting success. For example, when I first started at my secondary school I enjoyed sport but was not very good at it. I didn't start to trouble the team selectors until 16 or 17. However, when trying skiing for the first time at 12 I found a sporting activity which came easily to me, and I made more progress than the 'sporting stars' of my age group and older. The effect this had on my confidence was very positive. There were other kids on whom it had a similar effect.

Perhaps most interesting was the effect on the teacher was was the main organiser of the ski trip. He was a sports teacher who did all the football coaching and had a reputation for favouring the kids who did well at sport, particularly football. It was clear that he was disappointed and surprised when his favourites did not all become budding Franz Klammers the moment they clipped into their bindings!

Regards

Rob
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Quote:

He was a sports teacher who did all the football coaching and had a reputation for favouring the kids who did well at sport, particularly football. It was clear that he was disappointed and surprised when his favourites did not all become budding Franz Klammers


In my experience this is very typical of sports teachers (feel free to contradict me!). Ours were completely partisan in their treatment of pupils. I finally got round to skiing at the grand old age of 29 so there's no way of knowing if a school experience would have influenced me one way or the other.
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I have to agree with several of the posts on this thread. I was not good at any sports at school. Even when I went on the school skiing trip at 12, although I enjoyed it, I wasn't particularly good at it. When I rediscovered skiing at 17 through my local dry slope and developed onto teaching and racing, I met my old PE teacher who was amazed to see me teaching his kids to ski when I had avoided games at school.
That said, I now coach young racers and have to admit that the benefits of a good varied range of sports help both with the racers fitness and develpment.
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You know it makes sense.
Funnily enough, I can't even remember if my school arranged skiing trips. I have a feeling it might have done, but at the time I wasn't really that interested!! Didn't start skiing until a company I worked for offered a free trip (had been working there for a total of four days, so good timing!) Since then, no looking back - in fact, I regret never going skiing before. So well done to my old school, even if I didn't take them up on their generous offer!
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A while ago another thread touched on the problems schools were having, with respect to the reliability of tour operators..

This article from The Scotsman relates to both the earlier discussion and this thread, on the subject of the new guidelines to be implemented by the Scottish School Boards Association.

Quote:
SCHOOLS are to be issued with fresh guidelines on how to organise trips for pupils, in an attempt to improve safety and to protect education authorities from bogus travel operators.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
masopa, my school didn't arrange ski=ing trips either. I found school sports a pretty depressing experience, until we reached sixth form and had a bit more freedom to do what we wanted...
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I think its a shame kids are denied the chance to ski while at school. It's where I first caught the bug, going twice with school in my early teens. How my poor mother afforded to send both my sister & I remains a mystery. To her and my school I am forever grateful. Had the school trip not been available I am sure skiing would never have been an option to in my youth.

My school still offers skiing and hopefully it is still realistically affordable to all. Here in N Ireland most school skiing trips are a joint venture between a number of schools, within the same Education Board. Maybe this helps with the problems associated with releasing teachers for such trips. Interestingly, some Primary Schools in my area now go skiing which was unheard of in my day. I believe a high proportion of parents-pupils make this possible.
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My first ski trip was one at school and it was dreadful and nearly put me off for life. We went to Malcesine above Lake Garda in the week before Christmas and there was more snow at Gatwick than at the resort. Nearly put me off for life. I didn't go back for another 10 years as an adult and then got the bug. It's possible that schools in the 80's organised poor quality trips and then gave up on them, especially when snow reliability seemed to deteriorate.

Given my experience I think that it would be better not to introduce people to poor quality (cheap) skiing and put them off for life just for the sake of it.
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Chris Reed wrote:
Given my experience I think that it would be better not to introduce people to poor quality (cheap) skiing and put them off for life just for the sake of it.


I went to Bulgaria with school skiing, I really don't recall it being at all cheap. For parents who want their kids to ski it must be more cost effective to take them themselves, part of the reason school trips are out of vogue I suspect. One of our regular customers has a lad of 15 or so who'd tried the school trip and decided he'd rather ski with his parents, talking to him he was saying quite a few of the other kids on the trip had felt the same way.
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I remember there being one or 2 ski trips when I was at school, but not the years when I would have been eligible to go. Not sure I would have gone anyway..........my cousin (12 years my junior) has just left the same school & the ski trips appear to have been reinstated, it seems to be more to do with staff enthusiasm than anything else.
My nephew is lucky enough to be going on his first ski trip with school next February & seems to be at one of the growing minority of schools which offer such trips. Sadly my sister has already pointed out that she won't be taking him on any family trips after that, so if he wants to go, he'll have to speak nicely to Aunty Ski Bunny. snowHead
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News items like this haven't helped:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1456897.stm
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It seems pretty crazy to me that a judge can attach half the blame to the school for the actions of this disobedient 17 year old. It's all very well, with the benefit of hindsight, to say that his lift pass should have been removed. But what was the judge suggesting - that he shouldn't be allowed to ski at all for the remainder of his stay? That a teacher should spend the remainder of the trip supervising the boy in the hotel? That he should have been sent home?

A 17 year old has the right to move away from home, if he/she wishes, to father children, to get a job, to drive a car. If he/she acts irresponsibly and causes harm to a third party, I wonder if this judge thinks that the parents should be sued?
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Martin, given a ruling like that it isn't at all surprising that schools are getting rather 'legally' risk averse. It's a bit of a regular story on Radio 4's Today programme...
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PG wrote:
It seems pretty crazy to me that a judge can attach half the blame to the school for the actions of this disobedient 17 year old. It's all very well, with the benefit of hindsight, to say that his lift pass should have been removed.


At 17 he's still technically a minor and the school were in "loco parentis" and had responsibilty for him. Obviously it flies in the face of common sense, in fact common sense was lacking all round it seems. I used to do some work as a climbing instructor with people of similar age, although I was only 19-20 myself at the time I clearly understood the implications of the charge cerificate I held.

This lads school should never have allowed him to go unsupervised, it's unlikely in the extreme their insurance or the trip insurance would cover this situation, by any standard of common sense they were indeed neglient.

I'm not sure the parents providing written consent for him to ski unsupervised was worth the paper it was written on either, the only purpose of the consent would be to grant some sort of waiver of liability which I doubt they could do. The summary of the case suggests it was worthless. In turn the parents might have questioned the arrangement you'd think before letting him go.

The school were lucky to get off with being held as only 50% to blame.
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Ise, that's a matter of opinion. Constant supervision is neither practical nor obligatory.

Here's another opinion!

Doug McAvoy, General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers:

Quote:

"A precedent has been set by this ruling - even though the teacher gave instructions to pupils and all necessary steps were taken by the school, they were not enough. As a result of this ruling there's greater chance that a court will find some negligence on the part of a school or teacher."

The insurers had no problem with the steps the school had taken, he added.

It's a matter of how the law should be interpreted. A general duty of care owed by a school towards a child in its charge is not in doubt. To take such care for the health and safety of the child as is reasonable in all the circumstances. The actual law (para 7-230, Clerk & Lindsell on Torts, states:

"Schools: A teacher is expected to show such care towards a child under his charge as would be exercised by a reasonably careful parent, taking into account the conditions of school life as distinct from home life, the number of children in the class and the nature of those children. This seems to be no more than what would be reasonable in the particular circumstances. A teacher cannot be expected to insure children against injury from ordinary play in the playground or, indeed, the classroom. It is the duty of the teacher to supervise children in the playground but supervision before school or as the children leave school may not be required."

A year later the school successfully appealed the ruling, by the way.

See this Guardian article....

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,744657,00.html

Quote:
The decision to give a severe reprimand and to accept their assurances not to ski off piste again, was not, in the judges' view, outside the range of reasonable responses in the circumstances.
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PG, I'd not seen that other article, I find myself in agreement with the original judge though. It's a question of predicatable and likely outcomes and risk management. Taking a sample of 17 year old males and asking them to go amuse themselves on a ski slope I'm fairly sure we'd all expect not to need much of a sample size before an accident occured. If that's the case the school ought to have expected it.

Or, another way, would you take charge of a few 17 year old lads on a ski holiday ?
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ise, Yes - as long as reasonable care meant just that - reasonable, as in the extract above: "as would be exercised by a reasonably careful parent, taking into account the conditions of school life as distinct from home life, the number of children in the class and the nature of those children."

There is no expectation that a parent should supervise a 17 year old at all times, nor any suggestion that he/she would be failing in his/her duty of care by not doing so, assuming every reasonable effort had been made to ensure the child acted sensibly.

By way of example, on a French trip British children, often considerably younger than 17, are sent off in small groups to do a survey in a town, asking questions of the locals. They are told to obey certain rules, to act sensibly, to remain in a certain location. Would the school be failing in its duty of care if a child disobeys instructions, and has an accident as a direct consequence of ignoring the rules laid down? I think not, and if we follow the alternative line, we might as well stop all school extra-curricular activities now.
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I agree with PG. No one should be held responsible if a 17 year old who has been reprimanded for disobeying the rules previously set down then gives assurance that he will not break those rules again and promptly does so.
Had this been a younger child, the case may have been different.
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So can you all see why nobody in their right mind would organise a ski trip from school?

24 hours a day on duty.
Give up your own holiday time.
Responsible and liable for things you cannot control.
Massive amounts of admin work before during and after.

If you look at it from the point of view of what's in it for the teacher there is absolutely nothing. Not even the gratitude of the pupils by the look of much of the above.
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To summarise a recent seminar on highway liability I went on....

If you do nothing...you're liable
If you get it wrong...you're liable
If you try your best, but get it wrong...you're liable
If you get it right, but some pillock still gets it wrong....you're liable

I imagine the same is true for teachers and any other profession where you are subject to the vagaries of the judiciary.
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Chris Bish, in France environmental study trips, ski 'classes de neige' etc, are part of the curriculum, and take place during the school term. Don't geography field trips etc happen any more in the UK?
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When I was a teenager at school (early to mid 80's) I was fortunate to have gone on many school ski trips. We were effectively given free reign to do as we wished. Lessons were there if we wanted, but many of us went off on our own and were left to our on devices until time to meet up at the end of the day. We had a great time, although looking back were ridiculously lucky to have remained unscathed.

Since leaving school I have accompanied my old school on countless trips. Two trips a season are usually organised, juniors 12 to 14 and seniors, 14 to 16. For both the skiing rules are simple. The kids can only ski with their instructor, which is from 9 o'clock to 12 then 1 through to 3. We start the week by having at least one adult/teacher in with the various groups to ensure that the kids and instructors are working well together. If that goes well then we scale it down to meeting at lunch and then at the end of the ski day for handover.

Each year the trips are sold out within a few short days. But the responsibility heaped upon the teachers and in particular the party leader weighs heavier each year. I am not surprised by the diminishing figures.
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Ken Lingwood, what sort of liability/responsibility do you have for the students? are you classed as a member of staff or a generous volunteer?
Sorry, I don't mean it to sound like a grilling, but I'm genuinely curious as to how the school manage your contribution. Would there be any difference between a child in your care getting hurt & a child in the care of a teacher? (just thinking aloud here......) It sounds very well organised with straighforward rules - keeps things simple I suppose.
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Ski Bunny, It is a question that I asked the school. If there was a tragic accident where do I stand? I was told that I am classed as a member of staff. Obviously I can't get sacked but I could potentially leave myself open to legal action, at which point would the school and governing bodies run a mile?

I would welcome your thoughts, is there anyone out there that has the answer?
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Ken Lingwood, I would hope that the school would offer you their full support in the event of any such incident (God forbid it ever happens), out of gratitude for your long standing voluntary contributions, if nothing else. Do they need you more than you need them? Would the trip not happen if you didn't go, or is it just a convenient way for you to get a ski holiday? Presumably the school take out adequate insurance cover, but I would definately check out the small print - the school may class you as a member of staff for the purposes of the trip, but do the insurance company?
Recently I was put off travelling in a work hire car, as technically I am a sub-contractor & therefore not covered by the company insurance (& that was only as a passenger, not even driving the thing)
I hope you're not put off going, people like you should be given medals for services to skiing or something, but in this litigious day & age, you can't be too careful.
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Ski Bunny, It was a cheap and convenient way for me to get a ski holiday, and was in my late teens and early 20's the only way to afford to go. Now that I can afford to go when and where I want to, the school trip is becoming an effort - Coach travel, hostel accommodation etc. etc.

However, because of those early years when I needed them, I'm loathe to stop now that they need me. (My wife and new born girl may however take the choice out of my hands rolling eyes )
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We've spent a couple of holidays in hotels where nearly all the rest of the guests are part of a school party. The energy and commitment of the teachers/helpers never ceases to amaze me!

Filling up the last few rooms in a hotel taken over by a school is a good way to get a cheap ski deal by the way, and the kids in school parties are normally better behaved than the ones in families so don't let it put you off!
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Ken Lingwood, I suggest you check your insurance position with the LEA. I'd imagine they would have you covered.
It's nice to see some appreciation for teachers in the thread now. A little known point is that teachers generally like kids and get pleasure and satisfaction out of opening doors for them. I'd love to take a school trip, but I'm not quite brave enough and would find it hard to give up my own winter holiday time.
Sometimes kids catch sight of my pics on the laptop and say "That looks great, I'd love to do that!" Such pressure! National Curriculum restrictions and a massive burden of what must be done rule out term-time excursions at present.
Parents often don't realise how little slack there is in the system now. At GCSE level in particular, it's hard to fit everything in.
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PG wrote:
[ Don't geography field trips etc happen any more in the UK?


Yes they do but to boring places like Lulworth Cove and Swanage!

My first proper ski trip (ie not being dumped in the creche) was a school trip to Serre Chevalier. I had the time of my life and it got me totally hooked! Its a shame that schools have to stop running them as it definately gives more people a chance to go.

Its the whole compensation culture thats ruining it for the masses.
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As a teacher, I can safely say that the posts by Admin and Elizabeth b at the top of the thread have the reasons spot-on.

I would love to take a group of kids skiing - but kids are notoriously unable to follow simple instructions.... and even if I say to them not to go off piste, then the guide says the same, the parents have signed "No liability to teachers" forms etc etc - if one of them does and gets killed/injured, I lose my job.

Would you put your entire future, work, security in the hands of an ill-behaved group of 13/14y.o's ? I won't and so I won't run ski-trips.
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