 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But the narrowest tire was a completely different model to the others! So the whole comparison is meaningless. The narrow tyre was much better and much worse than the others. All that tells you is that a different tyre model behaves differently. You can’t infer anything else.
Right at the beginning he says “all other things being equal” - but they aren’t. The narrow tyre is a different model, with different compound chemistry, different tread build, different tread pattern, different sipe density etc. etc. Shame, because his other test videos are pretty thorough and I’ve a lot of respect for their conclusions. But not in this case.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 13-11-23 21:05; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But the three tyres with the same tread pattern performed within such a close percentage of each other that the width was effectively redundant as a differentiator. That was the point.
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No, the narrowest tyre was meant as the reference point and it was invalid because of the factors I outlined.
And if the narrow reference tyre wasn’t significant then why include it? They could have used just the results from the three equivalent tyres. But they did include it. So they must have thought it was significant to do so.
I appreciate the practical problem that the smallest size wasn’t available for the car being used for the test. But it is a common size. So the answer was to change the test car so that all four sizes were available. Not go for a completely different substitute.
Scientifically, it goes some way to validate the proposition that tyre width doesn’t matter, all other things being equal, but it’s a flawed experiment in that it doesn’t include the common smaller size of tyre.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 13-11-23 21:13; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The narrowest tyre is an outlier due to the different tread pattern. That's it, nothing more complicated. The comparison between the three tyres with the same tread pattern is still valid and can be extrapolated in either direction.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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No, you can’t know anything about a single factor of the smaller tyre in relation to the others. Because there are multiple factors that might explain differences, individually or in combination.
We know nothing about the differences in compound chemistry, or sipe density, or belt structure etc. you can’t pick on any one of these and say it’s the cause of any difference because we don’t know.
It’s a good attempt to research the proposition that width has an effect (or not), but it’s not conclusive.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 13-11-23 21:20; edited 2 times in total
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One thing that is certainly true is that narrower tyres are a lot cheaper!
looking at the difference between my wife’s volvo and my Golf, I can fit four 195/R16s winter tyres for the price of one expensive 235/R18 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And any it all of those things are valid reasons as to why the tyre with the different tread pattern is an outlier to be discounted.
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If you discount the tyre that is not the same type, then that’s fine and there’s a lot of evidence for the width being a subordinate factor in traction for wider tyres i.e. above 255mm. But if you do that, the problem is that you haven’t included very common sizes of narrower tread. It would be good to know from practical testing that the common narrower tyre fits the inferred trend. Because there may be a ‘beyond a certain width’ factor here i.e. that beyond a certain width, it’s subordinate, but not below that width. But you can’t, not from the tests. It still leaves a question mark over whether the narrower tyres that are usually recommended for winter wheels by manufacturers (presumably after extensive testing) aren’t better.
BMW don’t certify the wheels that came ex-factory with my car as OK for winter tyres. I have to drop 1” in diameter and 20mm in width before they’re certified. I just find it hard to imagine that they haven’t done extensive winter testing to come to this conclusion.
And of course, these are winter tyres, not all-seasons. What would be really useful is the same test on the all-season tyre closest to the winters tested here. Because increasingly, UK owners driving to the Alps fit all-seasons, because they’re more suited to UK conditions. But I appreciate that all this costs money and time and there’s a limit to their budget.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One of the reasons manufactures recommend narrower winter tyres is so there is clearance if you need to fit snow chains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well if you want to use real world examples, the widest tyre certified for my car is a 255/35 R19 which is what I run. The narrowest factory option (the one that is certified for snow chains) is 225/50 R17. So a 30mm difference in width and a taller, softer sidewall. Both sizes are certified for winter/M+S.
Funnily enough, those are two of the three widths tested in the video with the same tread pattern and presumably compound. So I'm more than happy that the data in the test is relevant to me because I'm never going to be fitting a 205 anything tyre to my car. Therefore any data on the 205/60 R16 is both an outlier in the test and an impossibilty in my circumstances.
But the data that remains shows I'm effectively losing nothing by maintaining the same width tyre in winter as summer and that is the salient point as far as I'm concerned.
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It is really more about compound these days.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| It is really more about compound these days. |
There is certainly something in that:
Winter tyres have a higher natural rubber content which keeps them supple in the cold. The softer they are, the more the tyre is able to interlock with the road surface, improving grip and handling. Unlike summer tyres, which harden quickly in cold temperatures, winter tyres perform best in temperatures below +7 degrees C.
Also
Winter tyres also have thousands of tiny grooves (known as sipes) in their tread blocks which are used to disperse water and prevent aquaplaning. These grooves bite into the snow, slush and ice, providing optimal grip with the road.
They also have a deep tread pattern. This provides a cavity for snow. Strangely, nothing grips snow better than snow, and the compacted snow intensifies the grip effect, adding traction to push the vehicle forwards on snowy and icy roads.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Garfield wrote: |
| One of the reasons manufactures recommend narrower winter tyres is so there is clearance if you need to fit snow chains. |
Spot on !
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hmmm, when talking "narrower" tyres, Mrs U is usually talking about being driven around in 2CVs (125 SR 15) or doing 2 winter seasons in the pyrenees in her BX (165/70).
Those are "narrower" tyres!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mt fatbike (4.5" tyres, 6psi) is vastly better in snow than my normal mountain bike (2.6" tyres, 20psi).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm with these guys. They're there to win...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not sure the local road maintainers will like it too much if you start ragging around with metal studded tyres...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mjit wrote: |
| I'm not sure the local road maintainers will like it too much if you start ragging around with metal studded tyres... |
Perfectly legal here in Austria and the tyres of choice for locals living above village level.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One of the best cars to drive in snow that I have driven was a Morris Minor fitted with "town and country" tyres and a couple of sacks of spuds in the boot. I will not be fitting the wider long wheel base wheels to Wallace. I prefer the look and the traction of it's standard short wheel base 6.00-16's.
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@shep, Rear wheel drive - fat tyres delivering the power.
In snow i'd have fat M&S tyres of the right tread compound and lower pressure versus narrow every time.
I recall a time a few years ago we drove through Bregenzerwald to Warth in deep really heavy falling snow (we were one of the last cars in before they closed the road in for 48 hours). If you know the bends up from Schroeken to Salober you'll know how steep and windy they are, and very exposed. 10pm at night, heavy car with roofbox and stacked out with ski kit for a 2 weeks trip, we were in my wife's A1 with pretty wide low profile fully wintered set up no chains, drove past an old-school Volvo estate spinning across the road going nowhere in a hurry, and he hadn't even made it to the steep bends, ours cruised straight up no chains required. Not sure what that proves but imv if you have the right tyres (and chains if required) your car will go almost anywhere (under body clearance permitting). I also recall this was the only time we've ever needed snow chains in Austria (frequently used them in France to get around the non-winterised locals spinning out of Moutiers etc blocking the road in the 90's....is it still the same?), the day we left Warth it snowed very heavily overnight and they were perfect on chains going down (i'd never rely on grip going downhill on any tyres).
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Narrow tires on cars and trucks look weedy and ridiculous.
Get some big fat man tires.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Am I the only one who uses tyres that fit the wheels? My winter tyres are exactly the same size as my normal ones…
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@Gordyjh, People using narrower winter tyres than summer ones have two sets of rims.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rjs, because?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Gordyjh, Having two sets of rims makes it easier to swap the tyres over. You could pick identical ones, or you could choose to get different sizes that are still ones specified for that car.
I have 205 winter tyres on steel rims and 225 summer tyres on the alloys that came with the car.
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I've never really been convinced that narrower is better for snow, but the opposite is certainly the case, i.e. wider tyres for summer use give better grip for a performance car. One argument for narrower winters could be that they;'re cheaper and there's just no point having the more expensive size.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Markymark29, why M&S tyres? They're not "winter" tyres 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skitow, Yup. Skinnier is grippier as far as they're concerned! Here's this year's schedule:
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On my Jimny I've got two sets of wheels - 235/75 R/T tyres (expensive Kendas with a mountain/snowflake symbol) and 195/80 proper winter tyres - Bridgestone Blizzaks - cheap AF because they come off Jap import courier vans and winter tyres aren't really used in NZ so they usually go to landfill when the vehicles come in.
The Jimny is a very capable 4wd, and the skinnier tyres are way better in snow than the fat off-road tyres. Don't look as cool though. I'm only really driving off road or rough road in snow though, not much sealed road use, so that may change things. They are absolute crap in the rain though, so once mid winter is over, I'll stick the bigger wheels back on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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