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Skier’s Stance Question

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I’ve recently been helping a friend who’s essentially, over time, picked up a few bad skiing habits. Over the last few weeks, he’s gone from enduring his skiing to positively looking forward to the next outing. Which is good.

Main issues were shoulder rotation to initiate turns and being in the back seat. So, lots of imbalance and thigh strain, very quickly becoming tired when “muscelling” his way down the mountain.

In the main, the issues have mostly been eradicated, even in more challenging conditions and on steeper terrain.

However, his stance is what I think is going to hold him back from progressing further. That’s to say, moving on from mainly skidded turns to more edge control and, ultimately carving.

I’d say his stance is skis shoulder width apart (almost). He says he feels stable but my guess is that this may slow down/halt further progression.

My question: are there any drill specific techniques/exercises that will help narrow the stance and lock in a stronger platform?

TIA
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Woops! My mistake - should have posted in Bend Ze Knees….if a mod could move the post over, it would be appreciated.
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IMV. Provided the Stance is not too wide, or too narrow - it can be down to personal preference. I think Shoulder Width is probably too wide and feet clamped together is too narrow. I ski with a narrower stance (as that is how I was taught and feel most comfortable with) and Lady F uses a wider stance (as that is how she was taught and makes her feel more secure).

I think working on making sure he has an early weight transfer, balances on the outside ski and is making nice S-Shaped turns (that are properly finished) is the first step. When that side of his skiing is better, then look at stance width in different disciplines eg Moguls, Powder etc.

I think lots of Stork Turns would help with everything....and as technique, balance and control improve, then the "Training wheels" of an unnecessarily wide stance may resolve itself.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 3-03-23 14:35; edited 3 times in total
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It's a mistake to focus just on the ski width, which I infer is what you mean by 'stance', as this will not, indeed should not, be the same in all situations. There was a lot of attention paid to this in the early days of carving skis, but that was largely because so many old-school skiers had always aspired to the classic French style of trying to keep the skis as close as possible, even to the extent of tucking one knee behind the other (this I was taught by an ESF instructor circa 1996).

Shoulder width apart is not a bad starting point though and I'm puzzled as to why you think it's a problem, indeed how far apart do you think they should be?

Oh, just spotted the last bit, you seem to think that a narrow stance is more stable? Odd.

In practice there are certainly some occasions when a wide stance can cause people problems, others where too narrow is not good, like any situation where you're getting high edge angles, as there just isn't physical space to do so. But the reason that some people struggle to change their ski width is more complicated.

Just as in the old days I'd get very frustrated by guides telling group members to bring their skis closer together to ski powder (and sometime to lean back as well Mad ) it's usually a sign that the real problem is not being addressed. Most often it's the weight too far back, be that caused from the knee, hip or shoulders, which makes it very difficult to simply bring the skis together, and it's this that may be causing problems.

So no, it's not a good idea, per se, to look for drills to bring the skis closer together.

Oh, and in general when I, and others I know, talk about 'stance' we're more often referring to the whole body shape, and a lot more can be learned from this than from the ski width alone.
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Chaletbeauroc wrote:
....even to the extent of tucking one knee behind the other (this I was taught by an ESF instructor circa 1996).

I was taught that 10 years earlier, by an ESF Instructor - and told it was completely wrong 15 years later.
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Quote:

Oh, and in general when I, and others I know, talk about 'stance' we're more often referring to the whole body shape, and a lot more can be learned from this than from the ski width alone.


That.

Plus, "stance" should be highly dynamic, including in some situations (e.g. bumps) legs together, but (mostly) not.
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@Cacciatore, Are you sure he's properly balanced along the length of his skis? Don't think the width of his stance will restrict him, but not being in the middle of his skis will........
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OK, “stance” is clearly the wrong term. Ski width is a better term.

I also, perfectly understand that ski width isn’t a fixed position. There are, of course, a lot of variables that might determine one’s ski width. Terrain, conditions, arc of turn, speed, angle of carving (by that I mean the degree of ski to snow), slope steepness, snow conditions, etc etc etc.

To explain, hopefully more clearly…

Imagine, for one moment, that you are stationary, skis across the fall line on a red piste. Your range of movement to edge your skis is far greater when your skis are wider apart (think ‘C’ shape). When your skis are closer together (and to be absolutely clear, I’m not talking about old style, knees together) the range of movement to lean downhill, weight over the downhill ski is demonstrably less. I know this, I tried it! And, again, to be clear (in response to a comment above), I’m NOT proposing that knees together is a more stable platform….merely, that skis too far apart might also not be an optimal position.

The guy’s overall position over his skis is now much improved. Mostly, nicely balanced but with a tendency to revert to sitting back/be too upright with insufficient ankle flex now and again (this is a work in progress).
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Oh, and many thanks to the mod who moved this thread Very Happy
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@Cacciatore, I'd personally be looking at weighting of the new outside ski at the appropriate time vs ski width at this point. Obv not seen him ski, but based on what you said about wanting to get more edge control and move into carving.
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@kitenski, that makes sense. Thanks.

I’d hazard a guess that making exaggerated movement (stand ‘up’ on the new outside ski), and allow the turn to develop, shoulders facing the same direction of the skis might have the effect of learning to balance more on the downhill ski….keeping hands out in front “goal keeper” style? Or perhaps “driving the bus” - a term I’ve heard/seen instructors (English) use?
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@Cacciatore, not really an exaggerated movement up more a conscious stand ON the new outside ski, the old skool big unweighting is no longer needed.

you could have him try and lift the tail of the new inside ski (keeping the tip on the snow) once he felt that his weight was on the new outside ski, this might be whilst traversing to start off with - then the progression is to lift it for longer and lift it earlier in the turn. I'd do that on very easy greens though with no consequence of a fall!
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For what it’s worth, the most recent instructor (Rab of New Gen in Tignes) and guide (Andrea Enzio in Alagna) I’ve worked with (both this season) both had all of us skiing wide turns with an exaggeratedly wide stance—well wider than shoulder width. Rab even went so far as to say that what felt ridiculously wide to most of us was in fact the best any of us had looked on the slopes that weekend. Both advanced-level groups.
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A simpler answer: https://www.section8ski.com/2010/09/skiing-101-stance-width-why-you-cant-get-a-straight-answer/#:~:text=It%20varies%20somewhat%20with%20body,balancing%20on%20the%20inside%20ski.

A more complicated answer that applies to more expert skiing: https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/stance-how-wide-is-too-wide
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Old Fartbag wrote:


A more complicated answer that applies to more expert skiing: https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/stance-how-wide-is-too-wide


This is really helpful; thank you. One thing that became clear from working with Rab on different biomechanical aspects of technique was how rotational separation gets harder the farther apart the skis are. I can’t remember quite what he said with regard either to stance or to the distance between skis, but the way I remembered it was more or less a trade-off between the two: that skis wide apart is helpful (particularly with regard to angulation) until your turns get narrow enough that the increased need for rotational separation outweighs the advantage of a larger distance between your skis.
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Also, consider snow ploughs Twisted Evil
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under a new name wrote:
Also, consider snow ploughs Twisted Evil


Are you rehab planning…? Toofy Grin wink
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kitenski wrote:
@Cacciatore, not really an exaggerated movement up more a conscious stand ON the new outside ski, the old skool big unweighting is no longer needed.

you could have him try and lift the tail of the new inside ski (keeping the tip on the snow) once he felt that his weight was on the new outside ski, this might be whilst traversing to start off with - then the progression is to lift it for longer and lift it earlier in the turn. I'd do that on very easy greens though with no consequence of a fall!


Again, thanks - I get the standing ON the new outside ski as opposed to unweighting. And the lifting of the new inside ski tail. If only we had some green runs hereabouts Laughing Actually, there is a perfect area for just this kind of “drill”.
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Old Fartbag wrote:


A more complicated answer that applies to more expert skiing: https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/stance-how-wide-is-too-wide


Perfect! Thanks for sharing that link Old Fartbag. The piece around sitting on the edge of a chair is something I’d forgotten Smile
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Cacciatore wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:


A more complicated answer that applies to more expert skiing: https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/stance-how-wide-is-too-wide


Perfect! Thanks for sharing that link Old Fartbag. The piece around sitting on the edge of a chair is something I’d forgotten Smile

I liked the way it was not about "this stance width", or "that stance width" - but an understanding of your own physiology and how best use that at Transition and how best to handle the forces in the turn. In a way, it's "Form follows Function", rather than the other way around.
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Any thoughts on this You Tube clip?

To be clear, this isn’t related to the original question!


http://youtube.com/v/gTvcFiIy_74
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I’m always fascinated that people try to get technical advice without showing a film of the supposed problems
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Cacciatore wrote:
Any thoughts on this You Tube clip?

I think it is one of the keys to achieving high edge angles, through very early edge pressure and snow contact, leading to better control and a tighter turn radius. When combined with Long Leg/Short leg, Toppling/Inclination and Angulation, it gives a fast, exciting way of skiing - which imv is very much high level Expert and Racer territory if done well.
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@Gordyjh, Yes, I agree. Too much over-analysis of someone else's idea of what someone should be doing to try to achieve objective X or Y without any reference to whether these are actually desired outcomes or problem areas for any individual skier is unlikely to be helpful in real life; seems like it's more of a hobby in itself, the analysis, I mean, not the skiing, a bit like the carv gadget discussed elsewhere at length.

It's a geek thing, IMO, but then again that doesn't make it a bad thing, does it?
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Chaletbeauroc wrote:
@Gordyjh, Yes, I agree. Too much over-analysis of someone else's idea of what someone should be doing to try to achieve objective X or Y without any reference to whether these are actually desired outcomes or problem areas for any individual skier is unlikely to be helpful in real life.
This is why I don't generally reply to these threads, there are often so many references to very advanced ski techniques when to me it is clear that the person being discussed is not at a hugely advanced level. There is no point in telling someone who can't do a basic parallel turn what you need to do to make a carved turn with no braking which is the sort of thing I often see here.
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Chris_n wrote:
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
@Gordyjh, Yes, I agree. Too much over-analysis of someone else's idea of what someone should be doing to try to achieve objective X or Y without any reference to whether these are actually desired outcomes or problem areas for any individual skier is unlikely to be helpful in real life.
This is why I don't generally reply to these threads, there are often so many references to very advanced ski techniques when to me it is clear that the person being discussed is not at a hugely advanced level. There is no point in telling someone who can't do a basic parallel turn what you need to do to make a carved turn with no braking which is the sort of thing I often see here.

TBF. On "Help" threads - people are usually advised to listen to the Instructors on here (who contribute to most of them)...and also to get the input of Resort or Fridge Instructors.

A lot of the advice usually revolves around Stork Turns and the idea of finishing turns, which need to be smooth and rounded - which are not really very advanced techniques - but needed to get off the Intermediate Plateau.
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Cacciatore wrote:
..........are there any drill specific techniques/exercises that will help narrow the stance and lock in a stronger platform?

TIA


A couple of Goldbraus should loosen this fella up Cool
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 You know it makes sense.
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Timberwolf wrote:
Cacciatore wrote:
..........are there any drill specific techniques/exercises that will help narrow the stance and lock in a stronger platform?

TIA


A couple of Goldbraus should loosen this fella up Cool


Laughing ….I did threaten to bring along the Haus Gemacht Zirben… Toofy Grin
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