 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello — We’re planning our first ski trip to Europe for this time next year (Dec 28-Jan 4). We’re from Florida, USA (no snow here, only surfing!) and it’ll be four of us. Myself and 2 daughters (20 & 17) will ski. My wife is more than to read in a coffee shop, walk around town, hit the spa, meet us for lunch and apres, etc. She’ll want to spend a day or two of that week doing family outing stuff like take a train or road trip to some other villages if we rent a car. The girls and I are looking for good conditions, on piste green and blue mostly. I grew up skiing but the girls have only spent a week on skis at Big Sky, Montana last winter. Day 1 was rough. By day 2 they were skiing intermediate with me and doing just fine. They loved it and have been after me to go skiing again. We prefer a cool village/town with some apres, a handful of bars/pubs, good friendly vibe, restaurants (dance clubs and Michelin stars absolutely not necessary).
Originally we planned on Grindelwald/Wengen but got spooked watching the weather this year because it rained for like a week straight before Christmas. Switched gears and booked accommodations in Chamonix Village. It is cancelable and something about St Anton intrigues me. It’s so hard to make a decision based on websites and blogs. Any first hand knowledge to help make this decision would be appreciated. Not sure we could make a “bad” decision. I just want to make the best one since this is such a big trip. If we could go later in the season, we’d go to Grindelwald/Wengen. But we’re limited to the Holidays due to high school and college schedules and the early season snow record there worries me.
Many thanks for your thoughts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Welcome to snowHeads 
Lech, rather than St. Anton by what you described
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| The girls and I are looking for good conditions, on piste green and blue mostly. I grew up skiing but the girls have only spent a week on skis at Big Sky, Montana last winter. |
Based on that comment, I would not recommend St Anton. There are some very flat, short, easy beginner runs down low, and then it is quite a step up the intermediate runs. IMHO, you have to be at least be able to competently link parallel turns, manage speed in variable snow conditions, often surrounded by many people, to be comfortable in StA. In other words, be what many people might describe as a "strong intermediate". St Anton however comes into its own for advanced/expert skiers, with challenging pistes and many side/off-piste possibilities.
As @drporat suggested, Lech might be a better option but I am not sure even it is a great choice for somebody looking for "good conditions, on piste green and blue mostly". I cannot comment on Chamonix - never been there.
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From what you have said I am not sure either Chamonix or St Anton will suit. I think your first choice of Grindelwald or Wengen would be better. Other places in Switzerland might also be good such as Zermatt or Davos. If you really fancy the Arlberg (it has really good skiing) then Lech would be better than St Anton but it is very isolated, no chance of trips to neighbouring areas though ideal for winter walks, spas etc, Another area to consider might be the Dolomites. It is in northern Italy but is a mixture of German and Italian (a lot of it is either German or Ladiin speaking). The scenery is superb, the weather tends to dry & cold so the ski areas have invested hugely in snow making which means that lack of early season snow is less of an issue. Places to look up would include Alta Badia, Corvara & Selva (lots of other villages too)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When you said train, I straight away thought of Jungfrau region. I would not be put off by this years weather pattern, as every year is unpredictable and different.
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@mikerol, Lech indeed would be the better option.
But you need to book a saturday-saturday week. Arriving on 28 december is going to be quite impossible.
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@mikerol, I know nothing about St Anton other than its reputation, which is not really optimised for two effective beginners.
Chamonix can cater for such early stage skiers, but again, that's not really what it's about. Also, that's pretty early season so conditions are even less guaranteed that later in the winter.
Personally, I would be looking higher, e.g. Verbier (CH) or Val d'Isere (FR).
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@mikerol, Sorry, to disregard your question but from your description of what your party wants I don't think either is a suitable resort. My reccomendation would be similar to that of @munich_irish, would be the Dolomites (where the film Cliff Hanger was filmed). Choose one of the bigger town. Canazai, Wolkenstein, Aleghe etc.
Just on a side note but is your wife happy with nudity in spas saunas etc. as is common in Austria? I haven't skied Austria for a while so it may have changed recently but nudity was expected in saunas even mixed ones.
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| johnE wrote: |
Just on a side note but is your wife happy with nudity in spas saunas etc. as is common in Austria? I haven't skied Austria for a while so it may have changed recently but nudity was expected in saunas even mixed ones. |
Not just in Austria, but most of the continent.
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@johnE, Clothes are indeed very much frowned upon in Austrian saunas which are generally mixed. I would imagine that could be a bit of a culture shock. However in the pools etc that would not be the case
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
From what you have said I am not sure either Chamonix or St Anton will suit
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Strongly agree. Neither is for the faint-hearted. There are loads of far better places.
What sort of accommodation are you looking for?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Neither of these 2, given your family's requirements.
Really puzzled how you got to this shortlist. I can think of 20 resorts FAR more suitable.
Val d'Isere. Nice old authentic town. Lots of skiing for beginners and intermediates.
Cervinia. Lots of non-skiers and endless quantities of motorways.
Cortina d'Ampezzo.
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@Onnem, Cervinia a good call on skiing at least (I don't know the town). Glaciated, as snow sure as anywhere.
@mikerol, where are you flying into as that makes a bit of difference?
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You know it makes sense.
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I’d suggest Mayrhofen instead for your family, plenty of snow there and bustling town with plenty of shops and restaurants plus your wife can use the Zillertalbahn to visit other places, there is a thermal spa in Fugen and also some high end hotels in Mayrhofen have pools etc
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Val d'Isere. Nice old authentic town
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 Nothing very authentic about Val d'Isere - it's a great ski resort but I don't think that's exactly what you're looking for, either. There is good, gentle, skiing (though you'd want to download in a lift) but it's not the resort's comparative advantage.
If "resort level snow" is important to you, Chamonix is just as likely to have rain as Wengen. It's down in a valley. And the easier skiing (e.g. in Les Houches) is quite low altitude.
I think you need to tell us more about your requirements to enable us to give you the best advice. Including budget. "Sky's the limit", or more limited?
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Poster: A snowHead
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And much of the skiing in Chamonix is a hike or a bus ride from much of the accommodation. Easy access to easy slopes is what you're looking for?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, yeah, Chamonix would not be on my short list 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The only thing I’d suggest Chamonix would provide is a bit of alpine history and an authentic (though now tourist) town. But as others have said, the skiiing isn’t for cruising around on and most will require a bus unless right next to one of the bases. Your wife would probably like it there and for non ski days things like the Montenvers railway and a trip up the Aiguille du Midi would be spectacular for someone not often in the mountains.
I’ve personally never been a big fan of St Anton, sure it’s got lots of steep off piste options but I’m getting a bit old for that kind of stuff and prefer side piste mellower stuff. As others have said, Lech would be a great option. High quality food and accommodation, generally very snow sure and enough of a linked lift system to keep you all happy for a week.
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I'd love to visit Lech - always been out of my price range! Your earlier choice of Wengen has a lot to offer too, spectacular scenery, the mountain railway through the North Face of the Eiger, accessible to non-skiers. I've only been there in summer - but some people here know it very well from the ski angle. If you are after a high probability of "resort level snow" you will face the usual compromise - high and snow-sure with doorstep skiing, or down in an "authentic" valley town which might just have piles of black icy stuff along the sides of the road through.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thank you all! I'm learning a lot. Answering a few questions from the string:
- Where are we flying into? Doesn't much matter. Happy to fly into whatever city. We can get anywhere from Orlando or Jacksonville with one stop.
- Budget/Accommodations? Honestly, we paid $230 each/day for lift passes at Big Sky last year, so European prices at the resorts I've looked at are just fine. Accommodation budget for the week is probably $3-4k for a nice 2 bedroom in town and walkable to bars/restaurants. Walk to slopes is preferred. We want it all 
- How did we get to this short list? Looking at lists of top European resorts in villages with charm and the most snow sure around New Years. I've heard of Chamonix and Arlberg my whole life. They both checked those 3 boxes. That's about it.
I do have another question for anyone familiar with St. Anton -- is it a major trek to get from St. Anton over to Lech/Zurs? I know you can get there via gondola or ski bus. Is it a hassle? I have a feeling the skiing there will suit our party better, but accommodations are $$$ and town doesn't look nearly as lively as St. Anton. Not that we're locked into St. Anton -- just trying to understand all the angles. Thank you!
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Well, Chamonix, especially the easier skiing, is definitely not one of the most snow sure destinations in early season. So you got some duff info there. It's an iconic, exciting, year round mountain destination but it's not a "charming mountain village". It's a big, sprawling, busy, valley town full of traffic. If you specify where your accommodation is, one of the Chamonix regulars will be able to tell you how much of a trek it will be to Le Tour or Les Houches (at opposite ends of the valley) where the easier skiing is.
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@pam w, it's not always
!! Although the parking antics this week are quite extraordinary.
@mikerol, OK, if you can easily fly in "anywhere" that makes life sort of easier.
So to broadly summarise somewhere:
- alpine-atmospheric with
- cruisey blues for the skiers (Europe doesn't really use greens as ski runs, they tend to be access roads and flat)
- activities including lunch access for Mom
- and a reasonable expectation of snow for skiing and atmosphere late Dec - early January
???
I'm still liking the idea of Cervinia f'rinstance. I don't really know the Dolomites but sounds like they would work (I don't know what the reliability is like). And there must be some good Austrian suggestions around?? Anyone? Bueller?
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@mikerol St Anton is my favourite place to ski. It has some of the best skiing in the alps though as noted by various people here it is not ideal for less strong skiers. The Arlberg (the name of the ski area) is just about the snowiest spot in the alps. It is linked to Lech with lifts but it is not really one big area, there are no easy pistes linking St Anton and Lech (in fact no pistes at all the key route is a semi prepared ski itinerary).From what you have said Lech will suit your party better, it is quieter and more expensive it is also pretty isolated (there is only one road in which occasionally gets closed in winter). It would be a better place for your non skiing wife and less experienced daughters. Whilst it is possible to get between the two (buses & fairly expensive taxis) doing apres in St Anton whilst staying in Lech is not really practical .
Not sure where you got the idea that Chamonix is snow sure. Yes Mont Blanc and the glaciers get lots of snow but there are no pistes up there but lower down around the valley. Verbier which is not far away would be more snow sure for early season skiing.
Chamonix does have lots of history and has some claim to be the world's premier mountain town though the days when various Himalayan legends could be found in the Bar National recounting their great deeds are long gone. Not sure that is a good basis for choosing a ski trip though. Still think the Jungfrau area would be ideal, some of the most iconic mountain scenery anywhere, Wengen is pretty unique. Though it perhaps doesnt have the best snow record, if that is a big worry look at Zermatt, which has the highest skiing in Europe along with great scenery and swiss charm.
Newspaper or magazine lists of the "top 10 best ski areas in the alps" are often completely wrong influenced by spin from various tourist offices , Chamonix could not be described as "charming" on any level great place though it is to visit, a trip up the Aiguille du Midi cable car is very worthwhile even if only to gawp at the folk teetering along the arete in ski boots!
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@mikerol, I have skied loads in St Anton and a couple of weeks in Chamonix. I think (as said previously) not St Anton, Lech would be a good call though. Chamonix is a nice place and one of the centres of Alpinism, big mountain skiing/steep skiing not the place for blues and greens - both places really are off-piste meccas. In terms of snow reliability and a nice village then Val D'Isere would be really hard to beat, excellent ski schools too - it does not get much better (all things considered.) In Switzerland then Zermatt, a lovely village which is snow-sure, wonderful history and excellent on-mountain food. In Austria at that time of year then somewhere in Zillertal would be a good call, you have the Hintertux Glacier at the end off the valley. I would cancel your Chamonix trip and do some more researching, if you are going to St Anton/Chamonix then you want to be going off-piste with a guiding operation. Lech, Val D'Isere, Zermatt, Zillertal/Mayrhofen would all be good calls, if you want mega snow-sure resorts then Tignes or Hinterux cannot be bettered.
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Val d'Isere is a bit Marmite. It certainly has a huge range of skiing, including some easy areas at high altitude. But it's very touristy. which seems a daft thing to say about a ski resort, but you sometimes struggle to hear anyone speaking French! And there's no easy ski route down (not a problem if downloading a gondola doesn't bother you - doesn't bother me). It's big, expensive, and not (in my view at any rate) in the least "charming". Very much purpose built, though the more recent "Savoyard style" offerings are not as bad as some. I prefer neighbouring (and linked) Tignes, which never seems quite as far up itself. It's a long drive down the valley to get anywhere else for a "day out" away from skiing, and I can't think of any particularly good destinations anywhere nearby. The iconic sites of Bourg St Maurice?? It's in a deep valley, lots of shade in mid-winter. If you're a skier you can get up the mountain and into the sun, but it's not a place I'd want to spend any time as a non-skier.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Snowheads threads are full of disagreements about ski resorts. But there's a remarkable unanimity in our judgement that neither Chamonix nor St Anton are what you're looking for!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agree with everyone who says St A and Chamonix would not be the ideal option. There are plenty of far better options for the skiing options on your wish list. For NY week you want to head quite high for a snow sure resort. One issue is probably how wedded your wife is to day trips elsewhere and how far/long she would wish to drive to get there. With just a week over here, basing yourself in one resort will more than meet all your skiing needs. You’ve had plenty of good alternatives already suggested. To that list I’d add Courchevel 1650 (or if you like a bit more bling) Courchevel 1850-great intermediate skiing, with a very fancy swimming/spa complex just down the road for your OH. There are a good selection of ski schools (English is spoken universally and, despite Brexit, there remain many native English speaking instructors)., and, unlike the USA, the cost of private tuition is not prohibitively expensive. For NY week, book early. If you straddle weekends (which your proposed dates do), you may find it harder to find an apartment to rent- they can be very wedded to Sat-Sat or Sunday to Sunday bookings . From Courchevel, a day trip to Annecy (lovely lake and very attractive old city centre with canals) is about a 90 min drive.
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@pam w, of course when the weather is terrible we always suggest a visit to the cheese factory in bourg st maurice
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You know it makes sense.
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@mikerol, can I suggest one of the Courchevel Villages - 1650/1850 would be perfect conditions for the green/blue pistes you described.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@mikerol, all the above aside, if you are a strong skier, then you should put St Anton on your bucket list for a future trip. Your only regret will be that you did not get there earlier!
There is a heap of info, and lively discussion, on St Anton at: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=160101
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 30-12-22 20:54; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@munich_irish -- "Newspaper or magazine lists of the "top 10 best ski areas in the alps" are often completely wrong influenced by spin from various tourist offices"
Thank you! That's exactly why I thought it best to ask a forum like this one.
Thank y'all so much. Looking into some of your other suggestions. Wengen seems awesome. I just got spooked looking at rain on all the webcams over the past couple weeks. That would be just my luck -- big, expensive ski trip to Europe and it rains. We get enough rain in Florida.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I just got spooked looking at rain on all the webcams over the past couple weeks.
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It was hammering down in lots of places. Including Chamonix.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And yes, you will struggle to get much choice of in-resort accommodation unless you do Sat/Sat, if in France. Might be a bit more flexible elsewhere, but it's a busy week everywhere. And I've read on other threads that hotels in Lech are booked up for new year well in advance.
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@mikerol, the most snow sure place in France is probably Tignes - Val Claret. You really do not need to worry about the weather if you are going there, I far prefer it to VDI but I am just skiing, eating and sleeping. As said before, St Anton and the Arlberg is a truly wonderful ski area and the off-piste is exceptional - why not go when the family are a bit older and you can all have a go at some off-piste with guided groups.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mikerol, the weather this year has been very odd (just like the ice houses on the great lakes) there was decent early snow which would normally presage decent snow for Christmas but instead the rain turned up. Extremely unlikely to happen next year. Lots of options & opinions above no right & wrong most of the suggested places would work we all have our own favourites
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@mikerol, @munich_irish, Rain in December is actually not that rare. This year it just was a bit much (a big bit) , and it looked so beautiful before it came.
But in German there is a special word for it: "Weihnachts-tauwetter", translates as "Christmas-Thaw". It's a recognized reoccurring event, happens quite often, and through all the Alps (and Europe)
Christmas simply is a bit tricky for skiing, it actually is a bit too early. You must go high.
And really, for the combination of an atmospheric village, and likeliness of snow, Lech is probably the best of all of the Alps. With Zermatt close by.
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no one feeling Kitzbuhel as an option?
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Bit low? We're all a bit spooked by this current weather, I guess
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Came to recommend Courchevel 1850 (or 1650 or even La Tania as a base), and see it’s already been done.
I spend my entire (unpaid) ski tour organising “career” trying to cater for extremely mixed ability groups and I’ve found nothing like Courchevel 1850 (other than *maybe* Meribel one valley over) that can provide satisfying skiing for 1 week skiers that provides very rapid progression if they want it. 1850 is spendy of course, but you’ve got the advantage of a strong dollar, and could very easily base yourself in 1650 or La T (more of a faff for spas, etc., but even cheaper). PdS (especially Les Gets) isn’t a bad shout either, but it’s way too low these days for December.
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Another vote for Courchevel 1850. The flattering piste skiing is miles better than Chamonix or St Anton. If you fly to GVA and rent a car you can always go via Chamonix on your return. The town and cable car ride up to the Aiguille du midi would make a memorable excursion (in good weather).
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