 Poster: A snowHead
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Synopsis: Observations on Whistler/Blackcomb following a 10 day trip over Christmas in 2022 from the perspective of a UK-based mixed ability family. North Americans, look away now. Everyone else, wall of text incoming …
Trigger warning: Overall, this trip was a bit of a disappointment—largely due to factors outside Whistler/Blackcomb’s control (time of year, weather and injuries), but together with operational issues and the general layout and set-up, we found few reasons for us to prefer *the* mega North American resort over its counterparts in France (3Vs, PdS)/Switzerland (4Vs).
Tourists: Dad, Mum, Lad 1 (18 ), Lad 2 (16), Lad 3 (14). Dad and Lad 3 are good-to-advanced piste skiers and middling on bumps, Lad 2 is an all-mountain near-expert, Mum and Lad 1 are permanent nervous novice-to-low intermediates who don’t especially like skiing and have no desire or inclination to climb the ladder (I have spent thousands on private lessons over the years, this will never change). We have spent many happy weeks in the 3Vs at half term, but have never previously skied in North America as a family.
Background: I booked this trip in the in the week we were meant to have been in the 3Vs over the Covid lockdown-cancelled February 2021 half term (I have a prior thread seeking advice on Whistler v. Jackson Hole). We ultimately chose Whistler on the theory that it was better for a mixed ability group and could be combined with a trip to Vancouver, which was critical to securing Mum’s buy in. Originally scheduled for December 2021, Omicron intervened and so we had to defer it by a year. GCSEs and A-levels this year meant we couldn’t move it to Easter, which I think would have been better.
Logistics: We booked this trip through Ski Safari, who were excellent and dealt with all aspects, did not quibble with the deferral (including booking and then refunding a short-lived substitute trip to Breckenridge) and managed to roll everything over except our EPIC passes (which we still made use of in the 2021/22 season due to EPIC’s excellent European partner resort programme). This was not, however, cheap. Total expenditures, including flights (premium economy on BA), accommodation (Whistler Westin/Vancouver Wall Sheraton), transfers, EPIC passes, lessons and gear hire, but excluding food/incidentals, was c. £28,000. No, you do not need to spend this much; I am sure some on this board could have done the same trip for half the cost.
Room & Board: We stayed at the Whistler Westin and had a 1BR apartment with an adjoining studio and a separate studio down the corridor (see, you could have done this much cheaper, you don’t need to tell me this). The rooms each had their own kitchenettes, balconies and fireplaces and we had plenty of space. The Westin is right next to the Whistler Village gondola and has a spa, hot tubs, gym and a pool. They have a ski valet service to take your skis at the foot of the Whistler Village home run(s), but you had to bring your boots/poles/helmets up to your rooms. I understand why—they have 400 rooms and a boot room/locker service would be total carnage in the morning—but this is a real hassle: you have no boot warmers and you need to be fully kitted up while tromping through the hotel (with associated snow all over the carpet). The Westin has one restaurant with room for maybe 100 covers, was not open for lunch, and a very small bar that was always rammed (mostly with families with small kids as a lot of the nearby establishments banned <19s after 2pm). The food is good, but the Christmas dinner buffet was extortionate (CAD139/head, without wine). Other dinners we tended to have in the Village, which were pretty good. The Beacon pub in particular had excellent fare and beers. The Mexican Corner Restaurant and Sushi Village were also very good. But given the time of year, reservations are *mandatory* unless you like eating at 1730 (pro tip: send someone out on their own to get on the waiting list). Every restaurant and retail establishment is suffering from extreme staffing problems. Lunches were on the mountain (see below).
Conditions: We arrived in the midst of an Arctic Outflow, which sent temperatures down to -23 degrees Celsius (with highs of a balmy -17 degrees) for the first 5 days, but very little precipitation. I will ski in any conditions but Lads 2 & 3 were flagging and Mum and Lad 1 simply (and sensibly) refused. Visibility was variable and god help you if fog froze inside your goggles. We skied for maybe 3 hours on each of the first few days (despite normally being gung ho first-to-last lift/no coffee/no lunch nutters). Christmas Eve brought about 40cm of snow, but rising temperatures turned it into rain up to the alpine through Boxing Day. Our last skiing day saw temperatures drop again and we got c. 20cm overnight (albeit heavy and wet snow). These were tough conditions, I saw a lot of miserable snowplowers who I can’t imagine will stick with the sport.
Operations: Vail gets a lot of stick for how they run their mountains. I have to say the criticism is largely justified. Grooming was inconsistent, and blue pistes—even those which aren’t designated bumps runs—are not always groomed daily. Snow cannons were running full blast all day in lots of places. Signage is ambiguous. There are no paper maps. The main alpine lifts (Glacier Express, Symphony, Harmony, Peak and the T bars) were generally closed except for a couple of afternoons (if that, Glacier and Symphony never opened, as early season conditions meant the famous terrain, like Spanky’s Ladder and the Symphony Amphitheatre (allegedly) didn’t have enough snow cover). As a result, I never managed to ski the Peak to Creek or the bowls other than Jersey Cream and 7th Heaven (which were great). Scheduled lift opening times—as indicated on the live-updated on the EPIC Mix app—were misleading at best, even at 0800 on the day. Winds and/or avalanche risk were the usual excuse, but closures/delays seemed more frequent than we’re used to in the 3Vs/4Vs (or, more charitably, those resorts are so much bigger laterally that high alpine closures don’t impact the feel of the resort). The lifts are slow and primitive compared to the larger resorts in France and Austria, and the stereotype of (some) North Americans being somewhat cavalier about lowering the bar are 100% accurate. On-mountain dining (entirely owned and operated by Vail) is appalling compared to Europe (think non-branded food court style).
On the plus side, queues are well managed and the crowds were not as awful as we feared, maybe a 15-20m wait for the gondolas from the Village up to the mountain if you avoided ski school start times and often no queues at all up the mountain, and the Epic Mix app gave accurate forecasted queuing times. Lessons (a couple of days for Lads 2 and 3 and a day for Mum) looked to be reasonably well run. Lad 2 also did a Steeps & Deeps clinic with Extremely Canadian and said that experience redeemed the entire trip for him.
Geographic facts of life: An 8 hour time difference from the UK is brutal. Even with a 2 week trip, jet lag was a real issue for everyone. Whistler is next to the ocean (comparatively speaking). This means rain and a lot of it (the Village is only at 600m), although it tends to turn to wet and heavy snow around mid mountain. The latitude means a 4pm sunset in December and a 3pm last lift. There are two mountains in the resort, Whistler and Blackcomb, linked by a 4.7km gondola between their respective mid-mountains. Whistler mountain is more prone to wind exposure (on Boxing Day, Whistler mountain didn’t open until noon) but has somewhat easier pistes. I found the actually open bits of Blackcomb to be somewhat more interesting (and had shorter queues in the morning) than the actually open bits of Whistler in terms of the terrain, but YMMV.
Skiing: Whistler skiing is not like French skiing. Obvious to most I guess, and I won’t rehash all of the discussions of in-bounds versus on-piste skiing, but French resort regulars need to understand this. If you do not like bumps, trees, steeps, or terrifying drop ins, you have a considerably lower proportion of the mountains to play with and if you want something completely chill like the Courchevel/Meribel green networks you are out of luck, except for the very limited magic carpet areas. I generally felt that compared to Whistler, for the average punter, skiing in the 3Vs (for example) feels like skiing with guard rails, which has its pluses and minuses.
Most regulars will know this, but North American piste classification in general bears no resemblance to the European grading system. Green pistes are decidedly bluish if not red (from a European standpoint) and many blues are extremely steep and completely mogulled, even first thing in the morning; they would be either reds or straight blacks in France. I never saw a groomed single black diamond (Dave Murray may be groomed once in a while?), and the double blacks would at best be marked-but-unpatrolled itineraires. With typical teenage bravado, Lad 2 said the “triple blacks” he did with ExCan would be illegal in France.  This is fine if more challenging skiing is what you’re after, but it meant that there is not much mellow terrain. There are “green” runs from the top of every lift, but they need to be recce’d before sending even low-intermediates thither, as they are just the “easiest” route rather than being objectively easy.
One relevation for me though, was glade skiing (in the trees which have been thinned out a bit), which I haven’t really done in Europe other than the odd side piste excursion. Arthur’s Choice in Blackcomb, in particular, is brilliant and makes you feel like a total hero, although I managed a grade 2 calf strain on Day 4 coming out of the much-more-difficult-but-still-single-black In the Spirit (still skied home though, but I had to opt out of the ExCan clinic with Lad 2), and was back to more gentle skiing with Lad 3 (against advice) on Day 7. Lad 3 and I found some powder off 7th Heaven on the last couple of days, although my injury and lack of form made it heavy going. Overall, Lad 2 thought it was amazing, Lad 3 and Dad thought it was excellent, Mum and Lad 1 were essentially limited to the small family zone on Whistler and even that required a lot of coaxing.
Non-skiing activities: Mum tells me the art gallery was genuinely good and the Scandinave Spa was excellent (although had a curiously basic cafe for what was otherwise a luxe establishment). The First Nations museum was OK. The Village itself is charming, accessible and has anything you could need (including physios). It was too cold or rainy for much hiking. The bobsled looked pretty good, but was hard to justify CAD200+ for about a minute of sledding. British Columbia has some excellent local wine, drop what you’re drinking and get the CheckMate Fool’s Mate Chardonnay. Vancouver is a fun city to visit, has great food, but lots of things were closed between Christmas and New Years.
As a transplanted American, I knew this was true, but everyone from the waiters to the hotel staff to the lifties to our fellow punters were all extremely nice and personable. Every lift ride flew by with congenial skiing and general life chat and observations about where the best snow was to be found on the day. I loved it, but the grumpier end of the Brit skier bell curve would probably find it awful.
Verdict: Any skiing is better than no skiing, but at the end of the day, this was too far away for something that was not, in the round, a qualitatively better experience to what we would have had in France. I may go back with Lads 2 & 3 at some point—but not in December—trips with Mum though I think will be limited to Courchevel 1850 (woe is me  ).
A final note to the Dads (and some Mums) out there, just because Mum (or Dad) says s/he’s “fine” with being away at Christmas, this isn’t necessarily the case.  Future December trips will be just me and Lads 2 and 3, and we’ll be home by Christmas Eve.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A great review and one I have going very useful as potentially planning a NA trip soon and Whistler is on my short list. Also looking at ski safari so good to hear positive stuff about them.
Do you think if you’d gone around Easter, with lighter days and less rain you’d enjoyed it more?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Astounding. You have managed to combine the “It rains at Whistler” trigger with mention of -23C!
In Banff I made the time difference work for me, getting first bus and First Tracks lessons and finishing at around 3pm. But as above, maybe it was still dark in Dec, we always went before Easter.
I love the NA variation in terrain, I find it more challenging. I like your guard rails analogy.
Sounds like, in the words of Vinnie Jones, “it’s been emotional”.
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| Fridge03 wrote: |
A great review and one I have going very useful as potentially planning a NA trip soon and Whistler is on my short list. Also looking at ski safari so good to hear positive stuff about them.
Do you think if you’d gone around Easter, with lighter days and less rain you’d enjoyed it more? |
Ski Safari were indeed really good, handled my many, many changes to the trip in the run up (adding, then dropping, then adding back, then dropping again additional rooms and flights (at various points the grandparents were going to come), changing equipment hire packages, dealing with Vail Resorts re: lessons and lift packages (whose call centres simply refuse to answer phone calls from civilians)) and I would use them again for anything that was too complicated to book DIY. Extremely Canadian were also excellent, and let me drop out of my clinic on <12 hours notice after I banjoed my calf (and didn’t demand a doctors note). Lad 2’s clinic was effectively a private session, with one other client, and I now have no hope of ever catching up.
I think it would have been a lot better in Easter, but this is the GCSE and A-Level year for Lads 1 & 2, and Mum seems to think revision is more important than skiing.  As it was, the boys were set at least 2 hours of revision a day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
They have a ski valet service to take your skis at the foot of the Whistler Village home run(s), but you had to bring your boots/poles/helmets up to your rooms.
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That seems to be a pretty ‘standard’ mode of operation in North America. Even ski valet is only limited to the more posh hotels. Instead, typical motels has racks on the wall for hanging skis and poles.
I would have gladly hand over my helmets and poles if valet are available. But boots? I never would let it out of my sight!
As for the rain and low temperature, go over to the “what Santa bring you” thread in Apres
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Curious as to what triple Blacks are going right now that lad2 skied with ex-can?
Bushrat I think is ok and maybe just about a triple I think but apparently very easy right now (according to @JnrH)
Ski out was definitely a triple black today - really busy with all sorts of random skiing and crashing going on - almost europe like! 
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@Dyrlac, Your experience pretty much aligned with mine, I went to Whistler from 2010 to 2015, and never had great conditions. For me it was a triumph of marketing over experience. There is massive potential, but you have to be there at right time, and I don’t mean the right month, the conditions change so rapidly you have to be there on the right week or even day(s). Also any decent snowfall brings out thousands of locals, so everything is tracked out immediately.
I did four trips in December, and I should have realised on my first one what things were going to be like, as they had reported 4.5m of snow falling in the village before I got there, but there was no snow in the village and very little until mid mountain. A European resort getting 4.5m in December would have been set for the season, not for a couple of weeks. My last trip was March 2015, and there was even less snow, with both mountains just refrozen crud 
The biggest bugbears for me were describing all new snow as ‘powder’, and the bizarre habit of reporting how much snow they’ve had so far that season, rather than how much they currently have.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I’ve been to Banff many times and my Canadian experience has been very different. I’m glad we’ve stuck with there and not tried Whistler
I’ve never found the jet lag too much of an issue. Most of the UK flights land mid afternoon and a fairly short transfer so we have an early tea and early to bed. To be fair we stick to getting up early for first lifts and not sampling the late night apres! Even went once for a 7night trip when it’s all we could fit in
In all my trips I’ve not run out of terrain! MrsJ is more of a groomer and there’s plenty at SV and LL to keep her busy for a week. A few top to bottom runs at LL will soon tire you out! For me the patrolled, inbounds but not groomed terrain is what makes it - I wouldn’t dare go off piste in the alps
Finally it seems Banff is much quieter - winter is low season. Never had a problem getting into restaurants. Only booked for a few special places
Try Banff in the Spring!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Great report, thanks for taking the time to write this. I have to admit we absolutely love Whistler .... but then again we have been extremely lucky with the snow and weather on all 4 occasions. The last one being the mega March in 2012 when it snowed and snowed and snowed (I think it remains the snowiest March on record). We haven't been back since because as you can attest you need to spend a mini fortune on flights and accommodation (but not necessarily £28K).
It sounds like you haven't, for one reason or another, experienced the full extent of what both mountains have to offer. Peak to Creek, the DM downhill, Franz's, Symphony and Harmony are iconic runs / areas IMHO.
I think to it justice you need to spend more than 2 weeks there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks for writing an honest report upon Whistler. I'm with PowderAdict, the marketing doesn't align with reality.
Banff is a different experience. The slightly shorter flight and shorter transfer make a difference. However, the biggest difference is the escape from the dead hand of corporate Whistler. There's competition in Banff and you don't feel you're being bled dry.
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Good review. I'm surprised your experience was that positive considering weather and lack of terrain being open - but that's always a risk with skiing so early in the season.
I was there pre-vail and it was normal that not all blue runs would be groomed everyday. (Ime the same is true for most n American resorts). If skiing in n America and you want to avoid bumps you need to be checking the grooming report each morning. (I'd suggest that if you are considering going all the way to n America to ski groomed runs you are better off staying in Europe!).
There is a lot of avalanche terrain to patrol, it's not like Europe where they just have to secure the pistes. Also they are reporting a 150cm base right now and generally 2m is needed to open some of the other stuff. So again I'd argue that's more early season conditions than a fault of Vail.
| Quote: |
Do you think if you’d gone around Easter, with lighter days and less rain you’d enjoyed it more?
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Imo Banff is a much better bet for Easter. Whistler can be too warm.
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You know it makes sense.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
you have to be there at right time, and I don’t mean the right month, the conditions change so rapidly you have to be there on the right week or even day(s).
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Isn’t that to be expected? Each storm bring new snow, whether that’s powder or wet cement! So why wouldn’t the condition changes every few days?
Unless of course, you’re talking about a region where there’re only a few storms in the entire season?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| abc wrote: |
| PowderAdict wrote: |
you have to be there at right time, and I don’t mean the right month, the conditions change so rapidly you have to be there on the right week or even day(s).
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Isn’t that to be expected? Each storm bring new snow, whether that’s powder or wet cement! So why wouldn’t the condition changes every few days?
Unless of course, you’re talking about a region where there’re only a few storms in the entire season? |
I kind of like that about whistler though. Even when conditions are bad you know the next storm is on the way. Whereas catch somewhere like Banff or Tahoe in bad conditions and you could be waiting weeks for a storm.
But yes everywhere is better if you are there at the right time. Everywhere can be bad if you are there at the wrong time. Most people's views of resorts they visit are understandably massively skewed by the weather they experience. However reflective, or not, that is of normal conditions.
I've done a season at whistler, granted it was a good year, but my experience was the weather is more often good than bad (which makes sense as somewhere with regularly bad weather doesn't become an international resort or a place lots of pros choose to go live). However, I can certainly remember weeks where if you were just visiting that week it would have been fairly disappointing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Kudos for taking the time to write out that comprehensive report. I agree with earlier comments about grooming as I can't think of a single Canadian resort I've been to where every blue was groomed every night. I agree that that means conditions and recent snowfall are perhaps far more critical. Most ski resorts report several number including cumulative snowfall and settled base. It's a low snow year pretty much everywhere in BC.
I do think Whistler is a bit a victim of it's own success/ marketing along with being close to two major cities (Vancouver and Seattle).
My favorite resorts are in the Okanagan where I accept the compromise of a bit less snowfall for slightly lower temperatures. Having said that it's rained everywhere recently and they don't fit the OP brief of having a lot of non-skiing activities.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Christmas skiing has always been risky. Expensive and crowded for sure, very random potential for snow conditions.
People who had skied a few decades vaguely remember those ‘good Christmas’ when there’s enough snow for resorts to be fully open, spreading out the crowds. But how often were resorts only half open and the lifts and pistes were jam packed with punters? Truth being, the latter is more the norm and former the exception.
The climate trend have been for winter to arrive later and later, but also lasting till later too (compared to say, 20 years ago). Time to accept the reality, ski Easter with plenty of sunshine and deep snow. Stay home by the fire for Christmas.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| However, I can certainly remember weeks where if you were just visiting that week it would have been fairly disappointing. |
Yes, that was my problem, pretty much every trip I made fell in to that category. I think I got 2 proper powder days in the 9 weeks over the 5 years I skied there, and that included touring outside the resort and multiple heliskiing days. I appreciate that I was very unluckly, and others experiences have been vastly different. I am also aware that opinions differ, having met and skied with many Amercians in Whistler, who thought the conditons were great (at least compared to what they had in their home resorts).
I switched to Hokkiado for 2016, and skied more powder runs on the first day that the entire 9 weeks I spent in Whistler 
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@abc, I skied whistler Christmas day the season before it came epic (possibly 2016 but I might be wrong). Conditions were pretty good and slopes were quiet. I think a lot of people chose not to ski on the day itself, or maybe they just went out in the afternoon. I would agree that December is risky though, you can't expect good conditions or everything to be open.
@PowderAdict, Japan is the place for "guaranteed" powder. The other problem with people's experiences is that those that haven't done seasons or backcountry skiing tend to describe any fresh snow as a powder day. Whereas I'd argue that true in bounds powder days (20cm+) are rarer than most people think. If I got 10 20cm+ days in a season I'd think of it as a very good season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
I switched to Hokkiado for 2016, and skied more powder runs on the first day that the entire 9 weeks I spent in Whistler(Whilst terrain are in the exact reverse order) |
It’s generally accepted North America has more powder potential than Europe. And Japan has more powder potential than North America. More over, the “quality” of the snow also goes in that order too. (Whilst terrain are in the exact reverse order)
You can improve your ‘luck’ by going to regions with more frequent storms. But people come to North America to find their own preferred balance between snow quantity, quality and terrain of interest.
The OP missed out on the terrain by injuring his calf muscle before he had a chance to do the Extremely Canadian clinic. Otherwise, his experience would have been considerably more positive (more like his lad 2). For those who have the skill and desire to take advantage of Whistler’s expert terrain by partaking the Ex-Can clinic, doing it early in the trip would make a lot of sense. The clinic functions both as instruction AND exploratory tours. The sooner one does it, the more days one gets to reap the benefit of knowing where to go and what to do.
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| Quote: |
For those who have the skill and desire to take advantage of Whistler’s expert terrain by partaking the Ex-Can clinic, doing it early in the trip would make a lot of sense. The clinic functions both as instruction AND exploratory tours. The sooner one does it, the more days one gets to reap the benefit of knowing where to go and what to do.
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Guess there's a sweet spot of wanting a few days to warm up first. Plus potentially trying to get the extremely Canadian clinic in good conditions. I found the guidebook invaluable for finding a lot of lines (I hear the ullr maps are now popular too). Lots of stuff you'd never really find on your own. Even worse take a wrong turn on spankys and you can end up in quite an unpleasant situation!
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @abc, I skied whistler Christmas day the season before it came epic (possibly 2016 but I might be wrong). Conditions were pretty good and slopes were quiet. I think a lot of people chose not to ski on the day itself, or maybe they just went out in the afternoon. I would agree that December is risky though, you can't expect good conditions or everything to be open.. |
I skied a couple feet of fresh snow in November one year! But what does that has anything to do with this thread besides willy waving?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @abc, I skied whistler Christmas day the season before it came epic (possibly 2016 but I might be wrong). Conditions were pretty good and slopes were quiet. I think a lot of people chose not to ski on the day itself, or maybe they just went out in the afternoon. I would agree that December is risky though, you can't expect good conditions or everything to be open.. |
I skied a couple feet of fresh snow in November one year! But what does that has anything to do with this thread besides willy waving? |
I was pointing out Christmas doesn't mean packed as you said. In fact my experience of whistler Christmas (kind of vital to the reply) was that village was packed with families and a lot of non-skiers. So the good stuff was mostly quiet and untracked. Christmas day itself was very quiet. If I wanted to brag I'd tell you I did about 120 days on snow that season and was in the top 20 for most vert in the whole resort |
Christmas Day and New Year day are both relatively quiet days, at least in the early morning. Same for the afternoon of Christmas Eve and New Year’s eve. But that’s not much consolation for families who spend the week “skiing” on the mountain. It’s typically packed, mobbed, with subpar conditions.
In that regard, Whistler actually has one of the better record in early season compare with the “average”. Still, average or even above average, isn’t much use for those who only spend 1-2 weeks in a random year.
The worst I’ve had, a couple years back. I had time off and plane ticket booked, lodging arranged in Colorado. But 1 week before I was to depart, there’s no natural snow. Man make snow only covered something like 10-20 trails. I ended up going somewhere else entirely. Had to take a hit on the cancellation fees and such.
Skiing is an outdoor sport. If I want consistency, I’d be far better off skate around in an indoor ice ring.
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| abc wrote: |
The OP missed out on the terrain by injuring his calf muscle before he had a chance to do the Extremely Canadian clinic. Otherwise, his experience would have been considerably more positive (more like his lad 2). For those who have the skill and desire to take advantage of Whistler’s expert terrain by partaking the Ex-Can clinic, doing it early in the trip would make a lot of sense. The clinic functions both as instruction AND exploratory tours. The sooner one does it, the more days one gets to reap the benefit of knowing where to go and what to do. |
This. The original plan was to do ExCan on days 5 & 6, giving me a few days to acclimatise/make sure I could still ski (given I’d been off the slopes list last February). ExCan actually told me beforehand just to take it easy and warm up the legs, but naturally I got cocky and stacked it in the trees on day 4. Deferred both of us until days 9/10 in the hopes of salvaging something, but the leg wasn’t cooperating so Lad 2 went on his own. Of course days 5&6 saw the best conditions (Lads 2&3 did some really good lessons while I was laid up, and got to Peak/Harmony and the associated bowls/runs). This was all 100% my own fault which coloured my overall view, but I stand behind my criticisms of Vail’s operations and the setup for low intermediates. As noted, it wasn’t a terrible trip, just a bit disappointing for something nearly two years in the making.
But oh well, I’m back in the 3Vs in January for a long weekend and again February for half term (for the 7th time), and will do a long write up from the other perspective—I expect I’ll be a little underwhelmed
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dyrlac, hope your calf is better. They can be a bit*h. Do yourself favour and see good physio and get it sorted before next trip
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dyrlac wrote: |
| Operations: Vail gets a lot of stick for how they run their mountains. ... |
Yeah but every single "hate" listed in the OP was the same before Vail took over, and many of them apply equally to other resorts in the area controlled by other companies or families.
Sure, if you don't like putting the bar on a chair down yourself, the locals won't do it for you, but that's nowt to do with VR.
I'll pick specifically on the idea that "avalanche control" is something done dishonestly. I've thrown bombs with the snow safety people and this is simply untrue. They want visitors to have the best experience possible, and not to die, so they come back.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Dyrlac wrote: |
| Operations: Vail gets a lot of stick for how they run their mountains. ... |
Yeah but every single "hate" listed in the OP was the same before Vail took over, and many of them apply equally to other resorts in the area controlled by other companies or families. |
Second that.
Many of the criticism applies to all North American mountains. For example, not all blue runs are groomed every day. That’s pretty standard mode of operation for most resorts. This is to allow intermediate skiers who wish to get a taste of what natural terrain is like to have a chance. They’ve got to start somewhere.
Of the many times I skied in the Alps, I found European ski operation is much more sterilized, or more civilized depending on your preference. So it’s not at all fair to compare between the 2 continent.
And even that disaster called “mountain food service”, applies to just about every North American mountains too!
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You know it makes sense.
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..and thirded
There would be uproar if everything got groomed
I think on-mountain food in north america is more of a functional thing, and I think this reflects on skiing being more of a sport than a holiday where you'd go and have a fine meal or sit around in the sun with a glass of wine (though that's good too!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| phil_w wrote: |
Yeah but every single "hate" listed in the OP was the same before Vail took over, and many of them apply equally to other resorts in the area controlled by other companies or families.
Sure, if you don't like putting the bar on a chair down yourself, the locals won't do it for you, but that's nowt to do with VR.
I'll pick specifically on the idea that "avalanche control" is something done dishonestly. I've thrown bombs with the snow safety people and this is simply untrue. They want visitors to have the best experience possible, and not to die, so they come back. |
“Hate” is a bit of an overstatement (other than in respect of the on-mountain food, that was just shocking, even having been forewarned). And in particular, I don’t at all think avalanche control is done dishonestly, my objection is that Whistler was very slow to open up the high alpine lifts (citing avalanche control or winds or whatever (and yes, I know winds blew an occupied chair off a cable somewhere in CO last week)) and worse, gave misleading impressions at 0800 that high alpine lifts would open at 0930, only to decide—after I had committed to one mountain or the other—that Harmony (for example) wasn’t going to open at all on the day. I understand that when patrol are responsible for avy control throughout the in-bounds it is more difficult than in Europe to safe all of the possible lines people will take, but it is nonetheless a frustration.
| abc wrote: |
Many of the criticism applies to all North American mountains. For example, not all blue runs are groomed every day. That’s pretty standard mode of operation for most resorts. This is to allow intermediate skiers who wish to get a taste of what natural terrain is like to have a chance. They’ve got to start somewhere.
Of the many times I skied in the Alps, I found European ski operation is much more sterilized, or more civilized depending on your preference. So it’s not at all fair to compare between the 2 continent.
And even that disaster called “mountain food service”, applies to just about every North American mountains too! |
I don’t really have a dog in the fight as to whether or not my criticisms are unique to Vail Resorts—although the chairlift chatter sure seemed to think that it was (both in respect of lift opening and the quality of the grooming)—but if it’s not, UK/Europe-based skiers (especially those (like me!) that spend most of their time in the posh mega resorts) should be prepared for a qualitatively (in terms of slickness of operations*) different experience in North America, offset to be sure by a whole lot more freedom and a more interesting skiing experience for more experienced/confident skiers.
This is a trade-off that reasonable people can make; as mentioned, I’m sure I’ll be back to North America with Lads 2 & 3 (in fact, Lad 3 is going to Jasper with his school in March, and his experience in Whistler will have done him a world of good). But it is a trade-off that is not on its face obvious to UK/European-based tourists, especially at a place like Whistler which is touted in the UK as the most European-like resort in NA.
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* queue behaviour excepted
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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*I bring my own lunch
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 31-12-22 4:38; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For the opportunity to spend vast amounts of money, and have the most amazing heated chairlift experience, you should try Big Sky.
But imho, and admittedly limited Big Sky experience, the skiing (which I assume is why you bothered flying over the atlantic and didnt just go out to a nice restaurant at home?) isn't close to Whistler or some other BC mountains.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 31-12-22 4:43; edited 5 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And thanks everyone for their concerns about my calf; I have a whole phalanx of physios on retainer (I fling myself around exactly like someone who didn’t become sporty until his late 30s and has been making up for lost time ever since) and, having done pretty much the same thing in 2019, know how the recovery process goes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dyrlac wrote: |
I don’t at all think avalanche control is done dishonestly, my objection is that Whistler was very slow to open up the high alpine lifts (citing avalanche control or winds or whatever (and yes, I know winds blew an occupied chair off a cable somewhere in CO last week)) and worse, gave misleading impressions at 0800 that high alpine lifts would open at 0930, only to decide—after I had committed to one mountain or the other—that Harmony (for example) wasn’t going to open at all on the day. I understand that when patrol are responsible for avy control throughout the in-bounds it is more difficult than in Europe to safe all of the possible lines people will take, but it is nonetheless a frustration.
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Funny I felt the same about Whistler’s slow opening of alpine sector after a big storm. But when I thought more about it, I seem to remember similar feeling when I used to live in California! I think it’s the marine snowpack that makes it a lot more difficult to do avi control.
For better or for worse, I like California and Whistler for very similar reason. The more interesting terrain with changeable snow! It’s not always the dry “powder” in the interior. It’s just… more interesting!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dyrlac wrote: |
And in particular, I don’t at all think avalanche control is done dishonestly, my objection is that Whistler was very slow to open up the high alpine lifts (citing avalanche control or winds or whatever (and yes, I know winds blew an occupied chair off a cable somewhere in CO last week)) and worse, gave misleading impressions at 0800 that high alpine lifts would open at 0930, only to decide—after I had committed to one mountain or the other—that Harmony (for example) wasn’t going to open at all on the day. I understand that when patrol are responsible for avy control throughout the in-bounds it is more difficult than in Europe to safe all of the possible lines people will take, but it is nonetheless a frustration.
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You know the peak to peak only takes 12 minutes? So being committed to one mountain hasn't really been a thing for a long time - and even then was a quick ski down, then gondola back up.
For future reference, you'll normally see Blackcomb open up the higher lifts before Whistler.
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@Dyrlac, nice report
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| stuarth wrote: |
There would be uproar if everything got groomed
I think on-mountain food in north america is more of a functional thing, and I think this reflects on skiing being more of a sport than a holiday where you'd go and have a fine meal or sit around in the sun with a glass of wine (though that's good too!) |
Agree. People in n america tend to be there to ski not sit around eating. Who can blame them when lift tickets are the price they are! Sure it's not gourmet or comparable to some of the euro restaurants, but ime it's perfectly edible and fast enough to get you back out again quickly. I suspect they are playing to their market, who will ski all day and save the nice restaurant, of which whistler village has at least a few, for the evening.
| Quote: |
Whistler was very slow to open up the high alpine lifts (citing avalanche control or winds or whatever (and yes, I know winds blew an occupied chair off a cable somewhere in CO last week)) and worse
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I think you are being unfair. It wasn't just a bit of wind. It got over 150km/h on the mountain. South West alone cancelled 16,000 flights over that week, massive areas were left without power etc. The whistler Instagram was very detailed with updates about the storm, why certain areas couldn't be bombed, what lifts they were planning to open, what could open if things went well etc. Sometimes avy control starts and you realise actually this is not as simple as first thought. I've been there standing around waiting for a lift to open, it's frustrating. But it's much better than patrol craving to consumer pressure and opening terrain that's dangerous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stuarth wrote: |
I think on-mountain food in north america is more of a functional thing, and I think this reflects on skiing being more of a sport than a holiday where you'd go and have a fine meal or sit around in the sun with a glass of wine (though that's good too!) |
It probably goes deeper than that. I think unlike our European brothers, Americans (and Canadians too) tend to think of lunch as a “refueling” stop only. It isn’t just for skiing, even on a work day, lunch was always a ‘get it done’ affair.
I used to do a ‘bike to lunch’ series in my bike club. I picked a scenic route, with nice restaurant for a sit down lunch, then more scenic roads back, preferably mostly downhill. I got some good following for the series. But, every time, there’re quite a few people who, while enjoy my route, would just ‘tolerate’ the long lunch stop. They were the ones who order the minimal food, be the first to leave the table and go wait outside…
Then, there’s practical reason, which is after a big lunch with wine, it’s hard to get motivated to go back out into the cold to ski again!
Much easier to skip it altogether, munching on power bars and ski through lunch till the lift close. Then change out of bulky ski boots and sweaty base layers, have food and drink in the village restaurant instead.
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I've only skied a couple of times at Whistler but I have friends who go more often and anecdotally things are different post Vail.
I would say though that poor communication around avy control and lift restrictions is something I've experienced elsewhere in Canada. I can remember buying an expensive ticket and being assured at the window that stuff was going to open (I was planning to tour but it was a HHH day so inbounds was the logical choice) to then get up the mountain, ask an actual patroller who just laughed at me....
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FAQ
