 Poster: A snowHead
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As my interest in off-piste skiing is growing, I reckon it's time to take the plunge and get my own equipment. I've been trying to educate myself about the equipment, but I wonder if there is a strong feeling from experienced Snowheads about which direction I should go. Looking at Snowsafe.co.uk, I can see there are packages based on the Ortovox Zoom 3+ for £279, a BCA Tracker S package for £329, and a Mammut Barryvox package for £349. I gather the Barryvox has the most range, but may also be the most complex to use and I would think that in an emergency, simplicity would count for a lot.
I'd love to hear any opinions about these or other packages. I'm aware that I will then need training and practice with them - I did a bit of that with Snoworks a few years back, and will do more.
Thanks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would look here for advice:
https://beaconreviews.com/
Lots of people on here will own transceivers and have lightly used 2 or 3 but you'll get a better discussion of the pros and cons of the various options at beacon reviews
Beyond that, more time spend practicing with whatever you buy and less time choosing is probably the way to go 
Welcome!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ortovox Zoom+. Simple, brilliant and a good price. In my view, the perfect first beacon. Had one for five years, used lots, done various avy training camps/days and it's been brilliant. I got one, and four friends seeing/borrowing mine, and loving its simplicity, did likewise. If you want to spend more, full review of all the latest models is in Fall-Line magazine (backcountry section) this month. Plenty will recommend the Mammut (I've used both the green and red a fair bit) but I prefer the Zoom+ for a first transceiver, as it is so easy to use.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| wiigman wrote: |
| Ortovox Zoom+. Simple, brilliant and a good price. In my view, the perfect first beacon. Had one for five years, used lots, done various avy training camps/days and it's been brilliant. I got one, and four friends seeing/borrowing mine, and loving its simplicity, did likewise. If you want to spend more, full review of all the latest models is in Fall-Line magazine (backcountry section) this month. Plenty will recommend the Mammut (I've used both the green and red a fair bit) but I prefer the Zoom+ for a first transceiver, as it is so easy to use. |
The only issue with the zoom+ transceiver is, and the same with any other that cannot deal with multiple burials is that you cannot flag once the closest victim is found. You then need the skillset of knowing how to then find the next one while still picking up victim #1 - this is arguably a huge drawback. When an avalanche strikes it does not go - oh you are a beginner in off-piste - let's have a single burial. Yes we try to limit hazard exposure but multi burials happen.
Just about any other modern beacon can flag/suppress signals in a multi-burial scenario so I do not rate this highly. That being said even doing multi-burial on a modern transceiver which you can flag is still a complicated matter for a group.
The idea about it being entry level then you'll upgrade later - don't buy into that mentality - you're not going to trade up after a few years- if you can afford to pay a bit more, then for a life critical piece of technology it may save yours/your friends life I wouldn't think twice about it.
I would avoid plastic shovels like the plague - though I think they stopped selling these now - if you ever tried to dig in avalanche snow goodluck without a metal shovel - and a sturdy one, with a larger shovel face is what to aim for.
On probe length - I think 230cm is common - I would again given the choice advise to go for something slightly longer - it enables you to find a victim buried under a deeper avalanche - this is snowpack/terrain dependent - but also will save your back on someone in 150cm+ of snow while probing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was in a similar position a couple of years back and went for a package from SnowLeader. Personally I went with the "I can aford it, why wouldn't I go for the one with the best range?" approach and to be honest there's really nothing at all complicated about the core functionality/use of the Barryvox. Yes it has some extra features you can learn to use if you have enough idle time with some transeaver-equiped friends that will help (but aren't escential) in a multi-victim situation - but that core functionality is as simple to use as possible. Flick from 'send' to 'recieve', wander around till you get a signal, follow the big arrow.
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@nevis1003, the arva is a bit bulky vs e.g. the Barryvox ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Barryvox is not only easy to use its much faster than the others in real time use. All the fastest times on my Ski Patrol exam were with Barryvox or Barryvox S! As others have said, you put it on search and follow the arrow and just ignore the extra functions. The zoom by comparison is 20 years (no joke) behind!
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I appreciate time appears to move faster as you get older, but... my experience is a little different. And on the Arctic Weekender with various IFMGA guides in attendance, including Bruce Goodlad, my Zoom+ kept being quickest to 'find'. So much so after the third go, I was asked to turn it off to give someone else (with a Barryvox) a chance. There was some choice muttering from guides along the lines of WTF?! I totally agree that the unit is not as good with a multiple burial, but personally I do find them easier and, er, quicker. But not by 20 years (no joke)...
| Idris wrote: |
| The Barryvox is not only easy to use its much faster than the others in real time use. All the fastest times on my Ski Patrol exam were with Barryvox or Barryvox S! As others have said, you put it on search and follow the arrow and just ignore the extra functions. The zoom by comparison is 20 years (no joke) behind! |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Gotta say that I’ve used a zoom + for a few years and it’s also been right up there in terms of finding a signal and speed of use compared to others on training days. The simplicity of use was also nice.
Changed to a barryvox this year and do like it. Mostly made the change because the flagging feature was worth having - spending more time touring with groups as opposed to one other.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thank you all for your thoughts, this is really helpful! To summarise, I'm looking at the ARVA package from Decathlon, the Ortovox Zoom+ from Spyderjon at The Piste Office, and the Mammut Barryvox from Snowsafe or Snowleader. I'll read a bit more about all of these at the beaconreviews website and see if I can find any deals. And a good metal shovel and a sturdy probe, and of course lots of practice with them. I'll let you know what I end up with, thank you all!
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for the extra bit of money I would go for the barryvox. The shovel that comes with it is nicer too. I've got one of the ortovox shovels, and it does the job, but is a bit heavy.
My other half has a BCA tracker S, which she finds easier to use than my barryvox, not sure why though.
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You know it makes sense.
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Good decision @diaphon, (buying the kit) remember once you have it practice with the transceiver. Also remember that avvy kit is best if it is never used in a real situation. Invoke the rule that avoidance is far better than rescue.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Another vote for the Barryvox - buy the best you can afford, and it's really not complicated to use.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This may be an obvious point but worth making in case you haven't. It is very important to undergo some avalanche burial training-which essentially shows you how to use the equipment. I did it once and after being given some very simple tips, we managed to halve the time it takes to find a buried tranceiver. That would be the difference between life and death.
This was years ago and organised by someone else, but I am sure someone on here could recommend a training service. https://henrysavalanchetalk.com/ is one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One extra feature of the Barryvox that's useful (but in no way escential/may well be on the other transevers too) is the Group Check. Basically limits the search radius to 0.5m so you know it's the transponder of the person in front of you you' are/aren't picking upin your start of day group transponder test. But you only really need 2 people in the group to have that feature (1 to test the rest of the group/1 to test the tester).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @nevis1003, the arva is a bit bulky vs e.g. the Barryvox ... |
That one probably is.
However I have used an Arva EVO5 for the last few seasons because it's the smallest I could get and it's designed to work in the pants pocket.
I never liked the trad holster mounts for various reasons.
The beacon reviews site is a good starting point although I think they get way down into the weeds.
They all work, it's personal preference.
To me, a transceiver only has to do very few things:- Be small.
- Work as fast as I can run.
- Handle multiple burials
- Have as few buttons and features and stuff as possible.
You don't want to have to carry the manual, and you don't want to have to consult it when you or a friend need the thing to work.
I think speed comes more from training than technology, but with this I can run full speed, which is all I need.
I can't do that with all brands.
The person with the biggest range (and biggest probe?) doesn't get there quicker.
You're highly unlikely to find someone 10% faster with a 10% greater range, other factors are more important,
and everyone deliberately eliminates the effect of range anyway.
The Evo5 has "group check" and "next burial", which are more features than most people will ever use.
I want "next burial", don't much care about other stuff.
I've never liked digital Ortovox units; they always feel too slow to me and I've seen people have problems with their new voice units (search threads here). BCA I never had a problem with. Pieps/ BlackDiamond... I want to like them, but they have too many breakable bits and buttons and firmware updates and stuff for me. Barryvox get good reviews, I just haven't used them.
Buying a package is likely the cheapest way to do it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@phil_w, that one, if it's the one I'm thinking of, defo is a bit bulky.
The Barryvox looks to be about the same size as the Evo5.
My point on size is only that you want to be as comfortable wearing it as possible, for obvious reasons.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Aye, on same page there. I checked the weights: Evo4 240g / Evo5 165g / Barryvox 210g.
I think that means for once at least two people on the internet are entirely correct.
Dimension wise... the Pieps Micro I think is the closest to the Evo5, but although I wanted to like something that cute, I didn't.
That size in my pocket and I'm ok, but smaller still would make me upgrade. My phone is tiny too.
I suspect a lot of people will always like bigger devices.
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Beacon makers are trying to cater for 3 different, and sometimes overlapping, types of user
1. punters (that's you and me). We'll more likely win the lottery than be involved in an avalanche, we'll more likely win the lottery two weeks in a row than be involved in a true multi burial situation. What we want is the least flakey interface and a fast processor so it keeps up. You don't want the beacon pausing for thought every few seconds or changing its mind on which direction to go. Range isn't so important, especially if you are not getting a stable signal at that range and in any case we're talking about following a flux line on mountainous terrain so a longer range may actually take you more time to get to the victim.
If you are ever involved in a real avalanche your mission is to get one victim out of the snow alive. If you do that, you've achieved a miracle.
2. People doing exams: guides, instructors, group leaders. Marking is a real plus in those situations as the examiners are sneaky - they may even put one beacon on top of another! They shouldn't face a multi-burial situation in the real world if they do their job properly but they do get it wrong at times.
3. Rescue workers - they are training all the time so know how all the bells and whistles work on more advanced beacons but should still be able to find multi victims with a basic beacon before you've got your probe out of your rucksack
and maybe a 4th
4. people who don't care about searching for their buddies and just want the most reliable beacon to be rescued
So fast, simple, stable would be my criteria.
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BCA fan myself, just make sure you practice using it a fair amount whatever you get because that is the most important part.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
1. punters (that's you and me). We'll more likely win the lottery than be involved in an avalanche, we'll more likely win the lottery two weeks in a row than be involved in a true multi burial situation. What we want is the least flakey interface and a fast processor so it keeps up. You don't want the beacon pausing for thought every few seconds or changing its mind on which direction to go. Range isn't so important, especially if you are not getting a stable signal at that range and in any case we're talking about following a flux line on mountainous terrain so a longer range may actually take you more time to get to the victim.
If you are ever involved in a real avalanche your mission is to get one victim out of the snow alive. If you do that, you've achieved a miracle.
So fast, simple, stable would be my criteria. |
I so agree with this. I must have done over a 100 weeks skiing over the years since I discovered off piste. That does include a lot of time on piste. Touch wood I have never been involved in a rescue.
I am still using a BCA tracker 2. One of the main things I like, is that it displays the distance in large bold red letters. My long vision is still pretty good however I do use reading glasses and carry them in my backpack (primarily for reading lunch menus). I think I might have a problem with some of the newer smaller displays particularly in flat light.
I could obviously get my glasses out of my backpack but that firstly takes unnecessary time. Then what happens if they steam up which is quite possible when you get hot and sweaty floundering about in heavy snow?
Yes keep it simple and if you can get one person out you have done extremely well.
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The Terrawest Core First Aid Backpack Package can currently be bought for an amazing discounted price of £64.50, which then allows you to buy separately the transceiver of your choice.
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/product/terrawest-first-aid-backpack-kit/
It includes:
- TerraWest Core 22 Backpack (includes Recco reflector and a back protector insert)
- TerraWest Core Light Shovel (aluminium)
- TerraWest Core 240 cm Probe
- TerraWest Core First Aid Kit
Even at full price of £129 its excellent value. I already have two of the backpacks and found the quality to be very good (though I don’t ski tour, which might require something lighter?) and have just purchased this package for my son, who’s joining us on a SCGB Freshtracks holiday.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks to everyone who offered advice, this was a very helpful thread. I found some good deals on an Evo5 set (£245 from Trek Inn) and on a Barryvox set (£296 from Bergzeit), and the deal that @Scrunch77 mentioned is pretty unbeatable - I did see it, but it only lasted a very short while and that package has now gone back to full price.
I also found out about a transceiver hire scheme run by the Alpine Ski Club. Turns out they are shutting down that scheme, but were happy to sell me two of their BCA Tracker2 transceivers for £50 each. These have arrived in the post and look great, I then got Terrawest shovels and probes sold by Snowsafe via Amazon for £40 per set. I already had two small ski backpacks, so we've put together two complete kits for £90 each. Now for the practice sessions!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quick tip for practice... Piles of leaves are a good substitute for snow and more results available at this time of year. Put the tracker in a small bag and hide it in one of three piles of leaves while your friend isn't watching..... And then have them search.
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Black Friday deals at Snowsafe
50% off all TerraWest branded stock, TerraWest Core 22 Backpack, Probe, Shovel and Core Avalanche Packages.
Coupon code: BLACK50
(I have no affiliation with Snowsafe.)
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You know it makes sense.
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@Scrunch77, incredibly helpful just ordered another backpack, shovel and probe set for £50. Thanks!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@diaphon,
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FAQ
