 Poster: A snowHead
|
@davidof, ok, maybe not 100% harder, but, approximately 96.26% harder 
Anecdotally, from an employee perspective at least ( admittedly I have no experience of the process before ) in the past, as a UK - and therefore EU citizen - you applied for a job, got the job, arranged transport, and voila, turned up for your first day of employment - roughly, I suspect, the process for EEA individuals?
Today ? With the wonderful 3CN ‘status’…… it’s much, much harder………
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Basically, the responses to the thread's titular question that are along the lines of "Yes, but no more than was the case already with non-EU countries pre-Brexit." may be true, but that's not any sort of positive change. It was always harder to get a job in Switzerland than the EU because CH isn't in the EU. All we've done with Brexit is a 'levelling-down' re Alpine employment, for no tangible benefits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| davidof wrote: |
| Timberwolf wrote: |
And whilst it’s pointless debating the definition of ‘hard’, what’s irrefutable is that the process is 100% ‘harder’ than it used to be. And, for what ? |
WindOfChange made the good point in that it is just one of the many administrative things that an employer has to go through so it is not 100% harder but it is harder to employee a none EEA person in France. |
I read that as suggesting that before brexit there was no process to go through at all, hence even just a little but hard is 100% harder than previously.
Silly point, perhaps, and probably not even true, but the fact remains that it is undisputedly a lot harder than it used to be.
Is it as strict as the Swiss system (for non EU/EFTA) as someone suggested? I doubt it, TBH, but I do take the point that it might still be much more difficult - while I don't love the Swiss bureaucracy, it's pretty much guaranteed to work as stated, unlike the French.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Timberwolf wrote: |
@davidof, ok, maybe not 100% harder, but, approximately 96.26% harder
|
I don't the exact percentage from an employers viewpoint but there is already a lot of admin stuff to do to employ someone. Which is partly why the British TOs largely resorted to using posted workers.
But I agree that any extra friction will put employers off.
At the moment there is a huge worker shortage in all areas (except politicians, we have enough of them) so they are probably prepared to make the extra effort if anyone wants to work in France. Once you've got a job you can get a carte de sejour.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
@davidof,
| Quote: |
except politicians, we have easily more than enough of them (and maires)
|
FIFY 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@shep, spot on
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@davidof,
| Quote: |
except politicians, we have easily more than enough of them (and maires)
|
FIFY |
thanks, I'm sure we've missed a few jobs though
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@davidof, too funny!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
This thread has focussed on France but what is the situation for Italy. If you go to this website (Italian govt. visa site, it says you don't need a visa for less than 90 days work if from the UK)
https://vistoperitalia.esteri.it/home/en
The Italian embassy in London says the same thing... but are they confusing Visa with Work Permit ?
The UK govt also references the above site for if you need a permit to work in Italy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@davidof, I think they are confusing visa with work permit. Sub 90 daays, sure you can visit while working but I don't imagine the rules are very different from France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @davidof, I think they are confusing visa with work permit. Sub 90 daays, sure you can visit while working but I don't imagine the rules are very different from France. |
I think you are correct but BASI, for example, are advising ski instructors they can work up to 90 days in Italy.
from basi.org.uk "Can British nationals work as independent, self-employed snowsports instructors in Italy? We have been told that British nationals can work < 90 days in Italy without a visa. More than 90 days, and a visa will be required"
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Not that easy:
https://www.italianvisa.it/self-employment-visa-as-freelance-worker/
What is an Italy Self-Employment Visa?
The Itay Self-Employment visa is a type of Italian long-stay visa (national or D-visa). This is the type of visa you must apply for if you intend to work as a freelancer or open a start-up business in Italy.
However, the self-employment visa for Italy is simply an entrance visa. This means it allows you to enter the country, but you still need additional authorization to stay and work there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Extremophile wrote: |
| snowrider wrote: |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| I think in time it might become easier to do seasons, I mean, didn’t the French change the rules about seasonal work and claiming benefits between seasons? I could be wrong on that but if it’s also harder to employ French people on seasonal contracts surely it’ll only be a matter of time before seasonal working visas are available, don’t forget French businesses owned by French people will struggle with staffing difficulties and some local authorities do have quite a lot of sway with government. |
Seasonal work visas for employees are already available. Unfortunately not available for self employed yet. |
And be easy to applied for without so many hoops to jump through around the work permit on the employer side. To be fair I didn’t word my postvery well.
Didn’t realise there was already a seasonal visa - please can you share a link for me? |
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/salaried-employment
Here are the different employee visas, see the 5th one down for seasonal workers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
With all this considered, I think I'll just do a season in Japan!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Hyst wrote: |
Not that easy:
https://www.italianvisa.it/self-employment-visa-as-freelance-worker/
What is an Italy Self-Employment Visa?
The Itay Self-Employment visa is a type of Italian long-stay visa (national or D-visa). This is the type of visa you must apply for if you intend to work as a freelancer or open a start-up business in Italy.
However, the self-employment visa for Italy is simply an entrance visa. This means it allows you to enter the country, but you still need additional authorization to stay and work there. |
Yes I know about the self employment then residents visa - but I was looking at the specific case of <90 days work. I appreciate the BASI may have got confused though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Just checking in to see if brits been able to find season work in the Alps quite easily this season or still proving difficult?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| archors wrote: |
| Just checking in to see if brits been able to find season work in the Alps quite easily this season or still proving difficult? |
Very difficult for Brits here in Switzerland. There are 2 reasons - 1) EU or Swiss citizens have preference over non-EU folks, and 2) finding affordable accommodation is far more difficult than it ever was, owing to the explosion of AirBnB. The accommodation issue obviously affects everyone regardless of citizenship, so employers are really struggling to find staff.
Lack of accommodation is the bigger of these 2 problems, as there are plenty of English speaking people in the world, so a lack of Brits doesn’t really matter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
With Europe becoming more difficult Canada and NZ become nice options as long as you are the right age
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
A couple of posters on the "rich people ruining ski holidays" thread suggested that cheap ski holidays, in the olden days, were enjoyed at the expense of shockingly exploited chalet staff and the like.  Complete rubbish, of course, and we probably all know somebody (a nephew in my case) who would love to be able to suffer the same kind of exploitation for a while....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@archors, not alps but Pyrenees, it’s as difficult as last year because there’s still not many places available for seasonaires to live in. Jnr thinks he’s found somewhere to live with some mates. I hope he has or else he’ll be living with me again all winter!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Some friends and colleagues are still having problems with work permits in Tirol. One girl is head instructor at one of the schools in the valley, she has worked here for about 12 years and has managed to get a permit in the two previous years. Her boss put the job advert in at AMS (Austrian jobcentre) in September as in previous years. She made a speculative appointment for a D visa at the company that processes Visas in Edinburgh. When she received her work permit it is only valid to end of Feb so she is not eligible for a D visa and must get a C visa. The company handling Visas are telling her as a Brit she doesn't need a C Visa as she can travel for up to 90 days anyway, she can't get through to them that she can have a C Visa (this happened the first year Visas were required and at the time the Austrian Embassy was handling Visas and it was no problem then the Visa was extended) and needed one to work. She is due to start work next Friday and is currently in a stalemate situation. Her boss rang AMS to find out what was happening and was told the first contingent of work permits which were for D Visas had gone to Chefs etc and only C Visa work permits were now available.
Another guy is in the same position with the Visas, he has worked here more than 15 years and is seriously considering throwing the towel in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
The French have finally got their way and largely killed the catered chalet which has massively reduced the number of jobs available (visa requirements or not). It has also badly harmed the economies in those resorts that had large numbers of chalets, and hit the takings of the local supermarkets, both in resort and in the valley towns.
The French, Belgian and Dutch self drive, self caterers barely spend any euros in the resorts beyond their accommodation and lift pass.
I do not think that any of us who spent seasons in the alps felt that our pocket money, accommodation, free lift pass, free ski hire, travel to and from the alps, plus tips and other earnings was ever exploitation. I was never out of pocket from doing a season (and I did 5) and I never had any parental financial support, and nor did anyone that I worked with. Why a number of those things cannot be factored into the wage is crazy.
Working a season is a fantastic life experience - chalet staff are effectively running a small business, managing a budget, and dealing with all sorts of different people. It really sets you up for all sorts of other things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't agree with you that self caterers don't spend money in the resorts, judging by supermarket ques any time I've used on there is a steady flow of people spending money that wouldn't otherwise be used in a catered chalet. I'm sure those chalet owners will do a bed and breakfast idea, I can't imagine how it will damage the economy of the resort too much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| biddpyat wrote: |
| I don't agree with you that self caterers don't spend money in the resorts, judging by supermarket ques any time I've used on there is a steady flow of people spending money that wouldn't otherwise be used in a catered chalet. I'm sure those chalet owners will do a bed and breakfast idea, I can't imagine how it will damage the economy of the resort too much. |
Have you ever seen the amount of food the typical self drive self catering continental based skiers take with them to the mountains?
Compare the amount they are buying with what a chalet buys.
All the studies that have been carried out show that they (the French, Belgian, Dutch self drive self caterers) spend considerably less in resort than the chalet companies, and typical Brit self caterers.
How will those chalet owners do a B&B? They would need staff from somewhere?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| JDL65 wrote: |
| biddpyat wrote: |
| I don't agree with you that self caterers don't spend money in the resorts, judging by supermarket ques any time I've used on there is a steady flow of people spending money that wouldn't otherwise be used in a catered chalet. I'm sure those chalet owners will do a bed and breakfast idea, I can't imagine how it will damage the economy of the resort too much. |
Have you ever seen the amount of food the typical self drive self catering continental based skiers take with them to the mountains?
Compare the amount they are buying with what a chalet buys.
All the studies that have been carried out show that they (the French, Belgian, Dutch self drive self caterers) spend considerably less in resort than the chalet companies, and typical Brit self caterers.
How will those chalet owners do a B&B? They would need staff from somewhere? |
In my experience (Austria) most Dutch self caterers bring all of their food and often a lot of their drink with them. They may buy fresh bread and local beer but they aren't buying Aperol from the supermarket.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frustrating we have job vacancies in the ski pass office but very difficult to find suitable staff….. if anyone has an EU passport and would like a job for winter come to Alpe d’Huez!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
But if they are in a chalet they have their food and some wine provided, that doesn't actually add much more to the resort. If it's a bed and breakfast they aren't limited to just british tourists, actually the chalet thing seems to be mainly a French resort thing, so mainly caters to British people. So if they have a bed and breakfast other EU citizens could work the kitchens, clean the room, no need for English as a main language, as a result they can cater to any of the other countries. Perhaps a majority of Dutch and English self caterers self drive , but others do fly drive, so will be spending in resort. I'm sure the resorts will change things according to how the rules have changed, re staffing. Austria and Italy seem to manage quite well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Chalets historically weren't just France, but the likes of Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton, and various Italian resorts too, though the majority were in France.
Guests would eat out at least once a week, and have to buy their lunches on the mountain, plus regularly frequented the bars. All things those SDSCers rarely do.
Where do you think all the food, wine, beer and cleaning stuff for the chalets was purchased? (Clue: It wasn't in Brussels, Lille, Lyon, Paris, Amsterdam!)
Then there was the money the seasonaires spent in the bars (even if their beer prices were lower than for punters).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Anecdotally, KK junior and niece, jobs have been near impossible to get. Well in their cases impossible.
KK jnr went on the various job sites, applied to several, but no EU passport, no chance.
Niece who did a chalet cooking course after A levels last summer, promised the earth, but no job as doesn't have an EU passport. According to her, no one on the course has found a job. Not being EU passport holders is the issue due to difficulties and costs in getting a visa.
I know it's a minute sample, but it's disheartening for them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| JDL65 wrote: |
Chalets historically weren't just France, but the likes of Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton, and various Italian resorts too, though the majority were in France.
Guests would eat out at least once a week, and have to buy their lunches on the mountain, plus regularly frequented the bars. All things those SDSCers rarely do.
Where do you think all the food, wine, beer and cleaning stuff for the chalets was purchased? (Clue: It wasn't in Brussels, Lille, Lyon, Paris, Amsterdam!)
Then there was the money the seasonaires spent in the bars (even if their beer prices were lower than for punters). |
Sarcasm noted, but I said I can't see them at much of a loss, as in the ingredients would be bought either way. Catered chalets seem to be less popular, now than they were.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| biddpyat wrote: |
| JDL65 wrote: |
Chalets historically weren't just France, but the likes of Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton, and various Italian resorts too, though the majority were in France.
Guests would eat out at least once a week, and have to buy their lunches on the mountain, plus regularly frequented the bars. All things those SDSCers rarely do.
Where do you think all the food, wine, beer and cleaning stuff for the chalets was purchased? (Clue: It wasn't in Brussels, Lille, Lyon, Paris, Amsterdam!)
Then there was the money the seasonaires spent in the bars (even if their beer prices were lower than for punters). |
Sarcasm noted, but I said I can't see them at much of a loss, as in the ingredients would be bought either way. Catered chalets seem to be less popular, now than they were. |
I think you are missing the point of where things were bought when there were loads of chalets. In was in resort or in the valley town supermarkets, sot on the supermarkets around the homes of those visiting the mountains. The local economies in and around the resorts have lost out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| JDL65 wrote: |
| I think you are missing the point of where things were bought when there were loads of chalets |
Also which things. I don't think the supermarkets of Lille are full of Beaufort and Tomme de Savoie.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
@JayRo,  our supermarkets certainly are!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @JayRo, our supermarkets certainly are! |
Are you in Lille?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@JayRo, Aaargh, did I miss your comment correctly? And am now anyway confused. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @JayRo, Aaargh, did I miss your comment correctly? And am now anyway confused. |
What I was trying to say was: the people load up the car with food and drive from (e.g.) Lille are buying their food in Lille, not in the Alps. But that doesn't just mean that they're not doing the buying in the Alps (so Alpine retail suffers), but also that they're much less likely to be buying Alpine produce (so Alpine producers also suffer).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@JayRo, ah, gotcha.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| biddpyat wrote: |
| I'm sure those chalet owners will do a bed and breakfast idea, I can't imagine how it will damage the economy of the resort too much. |
They can still run a catered chalet; they just have to pay legal wages...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
