 Poster: A snowHead
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So, last year it was also official, but no fines were imposed to transgressors, however from 1st November 2022 till 31st March 2023 a €135 fine may now be applied to non-conformists not carrying chains or not having winter or all-season tyres on all 4 wheels..........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The big question : does this mean hire cars from French side of Geneve aeroport will now come with winter tyres as standard?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You'd think they'd have to, but who knows!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I wonder if it will make much difference during this first season of enforcement?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
| I wonder if it will make much difference during this first season of enforcement? |
zero, there's no petrol so no-one is driving anywhere 
tbh you've always needed winter equipment to drive on mountain roads in France. The area has been extended - for example all of the Savoie has been covered although a court case shows this is overstepping the govt. powers. None of our company cars have winter tires and when I checked hire companies provision is still patchy (there was another thread).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 14-10-22 8:48; edited 1 time in total
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In BC, the way it worked, from what I recall, was that once the rules said you had to have M&S tyres... car rental companies had to provide at least that in all vehicles. So I would think, perhaps, that in France it may no longer be legal to rent a car without the legally required tyres, if you see what I mean. The result is that the cost of the tyres is less for most people as it's no longer a desk-sold upgrade etc.
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Is this either winter tyres or snow chains? I thought chains had always been required, unless the change is both are required there's no difference.
I have a second set of alloy wheels with winter tyres but car is 3 years old now so looking for a change soon and that will be a change of brand/model.
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@James77, Google says it is either (also 'socks' are acceptable...)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| The big question : does this mean hire cars from French side of Geneve aeroport will now come with winter tyres as standard? |
The bigger question is: does this mean all of France or just designated areas?
From memory it's the latter (not much call for snow chains in Corsica, even in mid Feb.) and I'm not sure the Ain department, where it borders Switzerland around Geneva is one either. As such no reason a hire car from the French side of Geneva would come with winter tyres as you don't need them where you're hiring the car from.
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Nothing to see here, folks.....as @davidof notes, the rules which have applied for ages in some mountain areas have been extended geographically, but it seems they have not been changed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w, @davidof, the rules have always been there, just not the fines.........
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Mjit, just designated areas. As I understand it, though I haven't been paying a whole load of attention, what's been done is extending the area covered by the "winter equipment obligatory" signs.
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| KenX wrote: |
| So, last year it was also official, but no fines were imposed to transgressors, however from 1st November 2022 till 31st March 2023 a €135 fine may now be applied to non-conformists not carrying chains or not having winter or all-season tyres on all 4 wheels.......... |
I suspect that your chances of being fined in any circumstance other than blocking a whole valley in the middle of a snowmaggedon is nil.
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You know it makes sense.
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The introduction of fines would be an excellent thing if it meant we were less likely to be held up by ill-equipped muppets. But as many of us know, having winter tyres, especially if you don't also have 4WD, is no guarantee that you'll have no problem with traction. And no guarantee, either, that when things are difficult the police won't INSIST you put chains on, however spanking new your winter tyres are.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Mjit, It's been posted before in the other thread(s) but Here's a website showing which departments are affected including a clickable map which shows for each if it's the whole department, e.g.Haute Savoie requires them or only specific communes, e.g. Haut Rhin.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| The big question : does this mean hire cars from French side of Geneve aeroport will now come with winter tyres as standard? |
I suspect that its illegal for companies to hire out vehicles that are not roadworthy, even in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have not checked the primary sources of info, but @KenX wrote, it is either winter tyres OR carrying chains. So it may still be that rentals will have summers and a set of chains will be provided at no extra charge to comply with the rules.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| I have not checked the primary sources of info, but @KenX wrote, it is either winter tyres OR carrying chains. So it may still be that rentals will have summers and a set of chains will be provided at no extra charge to comply with the rules. |
it depends where you rent from. From Nice or Grenoble you'll probably have to prebook and pay for chains. Just as it ever was.
Chambery will probably give you a pair of chains, ditto at Ferney.
The principal difference is that you can be fined if stopped even if it is not snowing. You could always be fined in the past for not having winter equipment on mountain roads in the winter.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
The principal difference is that you can be fined if stopped even if it is not snowing. You could always be fined in the past for not having winter equipment on mountain roads in the winter |
... in conditions and on roads where they would be warranted. (Just to complete your point).
Was always a grey area and I suspect was never systematically applied except perhaps in cases of accidents caused by not having the right equipment. Yes, they used to enforce it on certain roads, but usually by simply not letting you continue on a given road in poor conditions. The new rule makes it clear that you must not drive, even on a clear dry motorway, unless you have the required equipment, and that you can be fined for doing so.
Personally I think they should have gone further and made winter tyres mandatory throughout, but that's said as someone who's been using them for decades and feels that if I do then so should everyone else, for my safety as well as theirs.
Edit: I guess the simplest way to explain the change is that in the past it could be an offence to not be using suitable equipment, whereas now it's an offence simply to not have it, whether needed or not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| @Mjit, It's been posted before in the other thread(s) but Here's a website showing which departments are affected including a clickable map which shows for each if it's the whole department, e.g.Haute Savoie requires them or only specific communes, e.g. Haut Rhin. |
Not seen those before - but while the Ain department is 'partially covered' by winter rules the specific Ferney-Voltaire commune where the Geneva airport car hire places are located is one of the 'excluded' communes. As such a summer tyre/no snow chain hire car would still be perfectly road legal to drive out the yard, so no reason French Geneva airport hire car companies would have to start hiring 'winter equipped' cars.
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Are snow socks legal or does it need to be chains?
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Back in August they had already put up signs warning of the law change and new Zone by the Savoie border on the motorway.
~Details here https://savoie-route.fr/conseils-aux-usagers
Note this bit..
The winter tyres are actually the tyres labeled “M+S”, “M.S.” or “M&S” associated with the Alpine symbol. Until November 1st 2024 all tyres labeled “M+S”, “M.S.” or “M&S” without the Alpine symbol will be allowed though.
From 2024 must have the Alpine logo on the tyre wall - that's not had any publicity so far
@NoMapNoCompass, Snow socks are legal. Look for EN16662-1 which is the EU standard.
www.autosock.co.uk/autosock-for-cars/driving-with-autosock.php
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 15-10-22 11:44; edited 2 times in total
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@Mjit, the rules are applicable ibetween certain dates and on those dates rented cars will have to have chains. But I doubt they'll have winter tyres. And perhaps the chain won't always fit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@pam w, The dates are "From November 1st to March 31st" Although the public info in Savoie is saying change your tyres when the clocks change.
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@pam w, digging down to the Ferney-Voltaire commune of the Ain department Google translate has that commune down as:
"The commune Ferney-Voltaire is part of the department of Ain which is affected by the Mountain Law since it is partly included in the Jura massif.
However, it is not necessary to have special equipment to travel on the roads of this municipality between November 1 and March 31 of each year.
According to prefectural decree 01-2021-07-05-00001 of July 5, 2021, the municipality of Ferney-Voltaire is not included in the perimeter where winter tires are compulsory."
So a car hire company on the French side of Geneva could make the case that there's no requirement for them to fit winter tyres/provide chains. Of course every commune surrounding Ferney-Voltaire could have NOT issued a similar decree, so in theory you could be hiring a car you can only drive inside the Ferney-Voltaire commune!
I'm not saying that IS the case - I'm not hiring any cars from Geneva airport and my bordom only takes me so far into researching French commune rules - just what the case is where the car hire firms are based so what they COULD say/do. Personally if fines are coming in it's going to impact their winter business if they don't provide tyres and/or chains - though you can expect it to be one of those fun extra charges that bump up the baseline "French side is cheaper" price.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Driving down at Easter, so unlikely to be snowmageddon, but we can hope.
Got a new car coming next week, so it's likely that I'll buy some proper winter tyres, but I'm thinking I should get away with those and socks, rather than chains. Given that we will over night on 31st March, and not hit the alpine roads until 1st April, the dates given above don't seem to cover the Easter drivers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@SHAP If you get winter tyres, aren't socks redundant? The winter tyres handle a far wider range of conditions, I thought? And if chains are needed (e.g. a steep slope with ice on it) then socks won't be up to the conditions anyway. And if the police are enforcing a 'chains-only' policy then socks probably won't be acceptable.
As I've said before, there's the 'Murphy's Law' principle with buying snow chains for a car already equiped with winter tyres: if you get yourself chains it 99.999% guarantees that you'll never need them, and that the weather will be mild and sunny. But if you don't, it is almost 100% certain that conditions will be dire, and you'll need them on your next trip. Personally, I've found the worst conditions when driving with winter tyres have been in the resort itself: recent snow turning to compressed slush with pedestrians gaily walking in the middle of the road, or launching themselves across it without looking, so I have to repeatedly stop and restart on a steep hill. The winters having happily worked fine on the 15Kms of snowy road up to the resort - even around the hairpins - but once in the resort, the problems began.
It was an object lesson really: I should have put the chains on just outside the resort and I'd have been fine. But I'd handled the approach so easily with the winter tyres (on a 330BHP RWD convertible) that I was loath to put them on for the final Km through the resort to our accommodation. As it happened, I just made it OK, but I almost got stuck in the middle of the village with a navette behind me because a group of skiers decided to abruptly step into the middle of the road, then walk the 50m up to their apartment block. So it's also a plea to non-drivers: be realistic about the limits of what the average car can do in the snow, even with winter tyres on and don't imagine they can manoeuvre, stop or restart like they were on tarmac in August.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 15-10-22 14:29; edited 5 times in total
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@LaForet, fair point, wasn't aware that proper winter tyres would make socks redundant, always assumed they would add just a little extra if it was needed. I'll get chains instead, just in case we get lucky!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mjit wrote: |
@pam w, digging down to the Ferney-Voltaire commune of the Ain department Google translate has that commune down as:
"The commune Ferney-Voltaire is part of the department of Ain which is affected by the Mountain Law since it is partly included in the Jura massif.
However, it is not necessary to have special equipment to travel on the roads of this municipality between November 1 and March 31 of each year.
According to prefectural decree 01-2021-07-05-00001 of July 5, 2021, the municipality of Ferney-Voltaire is not included in the perimeter where winter tires are compulsory." |
That is incorrect information.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
| Mjit wrote: |
@pam w, digging down to the Ferney-Voltaire commune of the Ain department Google translate has that commune down as:
"The commune Ferney-Voltaire is part of the department of Ain which is affected by the Mountain Law since it is partly included in the Jura massif.
However, it is not necessary to have special equipment to travel on the roads of this municipality between November 1 and March 31 of each year.
According to prefectural decree 01-2021-07-05-00001 of July 5, 2021, the municipality of Ferney-Voltaire is not included in the perimeter where winter tires are compulsory." |
That is incorrect information. |
The site I linked to earlier agrees with you, that Ferney-Voltaire is indeed one of the communes that is included in the requirements https://pneus-hiver-obligatoires.fr/ain/
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Poster: A snowHead
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In my experience it's almost always been possible to get chains with cars rented on the French side of Geneva. Though they don't always fit - I always advise people to check before they leave the garage, if there's a lot of snow forecast, but with little hope that they actually will...... We once helped out a couple of families (who had been in touch through Snowheads) with rented cars from the Swiss side. One car had chains, the other not. Heavy snow was forecast the night before they had to leave very early to drive back to Gva and they took my advice to put snowchains on the night before. The driver who had no chains bought some locally, and we showed them how to put them on. The resort was total chaos next morning, with lots of cars stuck, but they got through OK and successfully claimed back the cost of the chains from the car hire company.
FWIW I don't agree that there is no point putting socks on winter tyres - in certain conditions they do give better traction and are definitely better than nothing. I have driven for some miles, with chains, behind a car with socks on, which seemed to go well. A very thin slushy fall of snow (the sort you get in April sunshine) can defeat winter tyres but the extra friction with socks might just do the trick.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| A very thin slushy fall of snow (the sort you get in April sunshine) can defeat winter tyres. |
Not in my experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, lucky old you, @Chaletbeauroc. My car with 4 good winter tyres simply refused to go up a hill it went up regularly and I had to whip the chains on in the middle of the road. By the time I drove back, an hour later, with my shopping the road was steaming and all the snow had gone.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@pam w, 4WD.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Ferney city hall website also says they are in the zone. So cars rented from GVA should come with at least chains this winter. Ditto Chambery.
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@Chaletbeauroc, well yes, 4WD obviously makes a difference. But most cars are not 4WD and my point stands - that whilst most of the time you can get away with winter tyres, there are times when you also need chains, either because of specially slidey conditions or because the police demand them before letting you up the hill. Sometimes, when it was dark and snowing and nasty I put on chains before getting loss of traction, rather than risk having to get out and do it in a dangerous spot. It's a difficult judgement sometimes, as is deciding when to take the damn things off. People blithely tell you that "the roads are kept clear" but we all know that's not entirely true, especially on minor roads, and especially after 10pm.
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Winter tryes provide safety in all winter conditions and whenever the car is being driven.
Rental companies should be band from provided summer tyres and chains. They don't have our safety in mind.
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It's unrealistic to expect rental companies, who only exist to make money, to provide, as standard, safety equipment over and above what the law requires and what the majority of privately-owned cars in the vicinity have. Hundreds of thousands of French families drive to the ski resorts every winter. I'd guess that only a minority - perhaps a small minority - have winter tyres. We all have choices. Nobody is forcing anybody to rent a car in Ferney Voltaire! Few people take maximum safety precautions, all the time. I do a lot of sailing and we don't routinely wear lifejackets. I do a fair bit of driving and don't wear a crash helmet, though the risk of brain damage in an RTA is considerably greater than the risk of drowning on a quiet day in the Solent. The danger on Snowheads threads about winter tyres is being thumped by a chunk of flying hyperbole.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This has been the situation in Italy for years. In our experience rental cars near the mountainous areas (Venice, Verona, Milan etc) always have snow chains included, those further south tend to charge extra for the chains. Some companies also offer 'winterised' packages which have winter tyres, usually for a premium (obviously...).
We got back from Northern Italy a few weeks ago and IIRC hire car had chains in the boot so they probably just throw them in when the car arrives.
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| earl wrote: |
| Winter tryes provide safety in all winter conditions and whenever the car is being driven. |
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