 Poster: A snowHead
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I was doing some calculations for how many hours I spent on snow for another reason but thought I'd share them out of interest.
For Cross country skiing (classic and skating) from end of Jan 2020 to start of Jan 2022 I spend 160 hours on snow for 101 days. This covered 1300 km with 35,000 meters of climbing and descent. Longest day was 42km with 1600 meters of climb/descent.
In the end this doesn't seem like a great deal. About 80 hours per season on snow. Given the 10,000 hour rule (to become an expert) we're looking at around another 120 years of skiing  .
The above is missing a few trips as I didn't record everything but more or less accurate.
I'll have a look a alpine skiing for 2021/2022 later.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@davidof, tho you know the 10,000 hour rule is bollox right?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That’s why people only count the days/weeks of skiing, not hours on snow. Glossing over the “details” keeps us from feeling depressed.
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IIRC a few years ago I saw an article that said the average skier spends less than 3 hours per day skiing. Most people on this forum mocked this statistic, but when I checked how much time I actually spent sliding down the white stuff it was just about right. We’d start at 9:30 and finish at 17:00 ish. We’d have lunch and two coffee breaks taking out an hour and a half. Of the remaining 6 hours. Half would be spent sitting on lifts and of the rest half would be spent getting our breath back or waiting for others. We were, in fact, only skiing for 90 minutes a day.
BTW. I’d be really pleased with myself if I’d climbed 1600 metres in a day. I’m happy with half that these days
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@johnE,
That sounds about right for a longer"s daily time sliding down.
As a skibum I had this sort of discussion with some others. We all said an average of 5 hours a day 'up the mountain ', so 800 hours a season (we were in Tignes so a longer than average season), leading to approx 500 hours sliding down.
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@johnE, my bro has a watch smart enough to estimate downhill time and I think our best effort was 2 hours downhill out of 6 hours on the hill. Typically 1hr 30.
Mind you we are reasonably quick, but do like our lunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@johnE, my bro has a watch smart enough to estimate downhill time and I think our best effort was 2 hours downhill out of 6 hours on the hill. Typically 1hr 30.
Mind you we are reasonably quick, but do like our lunch. |
My watch isn't smart enough to do that but I can well believe that a 6 hour day is only 90 minutes actual skiing. I could analyse the GPX track to work it out I suppose.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @davidof, tho you know the 10,000 hour rule is bollox right? |
I've heard that said but I'm not convinced that gladwell is totally off the mark. Obviously 10,000 hours doing something badly is not going to be great practice.
I rarely meet good IT people with less than 7 years experience. Lets say 30 hours week x 48 weeks x 7 years and guess what, that is 10,000 hours.
I guess that is why apprenticeships were 7 years in the past.
That isn't 10,000 hours to learn to code but to become a professional with an all round appreciation of the profession.
Some people say the 10,000 hours is off putting but it gives an idea of how much time you need to put in to become an expert. 30 minutes a couple of times a week practicing guitar isn't going to make you Eric Clapton.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 31-08-22 19:07; edited 1 time in total
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I remember reading an article where Mikaela Shriffin said that when she trained slalom she’d be skiing for 8 mins each day. Therefore she tried to make every turn count.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think Shiffrin only trains in about 2 hour blocks on snow so hard even for her to hit 10000 hours. Of course she is highly focused on a progression of drills then a few hot laps then done. Obviously she's beasting herself on deadlifts and squat jumps up stairs etc in the rest of the time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@doddsie, that doesn't correspond with any racer I know ...
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For alpine it was 55hours over 21 days... As above lots of time sitting on lifts. That's for 2022
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You know it makes sense.
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Looking at my skiing data on Trainingpeaks, when skiing recreationally with friends, I'm typically actively skiing for about 60-90mins per full "day" of skiing (5-8hrs). It works out to be about 10mins skiing per 1000m descent, ignoring all time either stopped or on lifts.
In training load terms, it is equivalent to a 5k run (albeit over a whole day, not concentrated in 25mins).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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under a new name - On average 8 runs of approx 1 min or 16-20 runs of 20-25 secs, depending if they were skiing full or half course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| doddsie wrote: |
| I remember reading an article where Mikaela Shriffin said that when she trained slalom she’d be skiing for 8 mins each day. Therefore she tried to make every turn count. |
If she was riding a 1 min 30s slalom run 5 times that would make sense.
Back in the day I remember riding a 1min GS course twice consecutively and could never go faster on the 2nd run due to fatigue. By the fourth or fifth time your legs would be totally knackered.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@doddsie, yeah, ok, thinking about it and per other comments, can see what you mean. Then again, seeing what local club racers are doing (and ENSA trainee instructors) ((and nat squads on e.g. glacier) much more skiing than 8 mins a day although lots of chat to be fair
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think we all ski considerably less than we think we do. I remember this past season that my son did ten laps of a long mogul run in the PDS, which pushed him to his limit physically and would be beyond most of us. Each lap was 160 moguls, so 1600 turns at 100 per minute, which equates to a mere 16 mins of skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| doddsie wrote: |
| I remember reading an article where Mikaela Shriffin said that when she trained slalom she’d be skiing for 8 mins each day. Therefore she tried to make every turn count. |
If she was riding a 1 min 30s slalom run 5 times that would make sense. |
Slalom courses are not that long, particularly training ones.
I would count using a surface lift in time spent skiing, you are still aware if your stance needs adjusting, Mikaela Shiffrin is probably lapping on a chairlift when training in the US.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| ... I don’t ski to exercise. ... |
I think that's true of most people who can actually [downhill] ski. I wonder in fact if you couldn't throw away all these badge-grading systems for intermediate skiers, as I reckon that the better you are, the less energy you'll use for the same run. All those people who stop during a run (!), are quite possibly fitter than me, but snowboarding's about as energetic as walking, to me.
| do wrote: |
| Some people say the 10,000 hours is off putting but it gives an idea of how much time you need to put in to become an expert. ... |
I think they may as well get put-off early rather than after the first 50 days of learning. With surfing, I actually nearly gave up, until I researched how many days it took to get good (a lot), and realized that it wasn't that I was particularly bad, it's just one of those which requires a bit of time to be put in. So to me, that's a "put on" not a put-off.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was skiing Chill Factore recently on an evening where it was ski straight on to the lift. It was knackering not because of the skiing down which takes about 20 seconds but the no rest aspect of riding a surface lift.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, haha, yes, 203 skis and drag lifts. quite the difference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Surely it's quality and not quantity?
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That's not really how pros train for endurance sport.
For example top level xc skiers will train around 800 hours per year, of which 500 will be sport specific (generally 10% gym work, 20% running, 70% skiing) but of that 90% running/skiing 90% will be low intensity with only 10% "beasting it", as you would say. So a huge amount of quantity sprinkled with a bit of quality. Polarized training.
Pro cyclists follow a similar pattern. Catch them on a LIT day and "you" may even be able drop them then post some pics on the interwebs later.
As Stalin once (maybe) said "quantity has a quality all of its own"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Avg pro skier will be training on snow about 400 hrs per winter and then have some summer hours put in on snow as well. 10,000 hours does not apply to physical activity that breaks your body down. Try 10k hours of mogul skiing and see how your knees feel:)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Had a read through the transcript and it is very illuminating. I'd always taken the 10,000 hours (or whatever the figure is ranging from zero to... infinity) as being a rounded look at the hours towards being great at something rather than, as mentioned above, 10,000 hours bashing moguls or whatever. Someone was talking about learning piano and he said that he first of all took 8 months to learn to read music well (ok he was also learning piano at the same time) and those hours are part of the process. There was a book saying you should be a generalist rather than a specialist and slamming the 10k rule but if we take the Beatles examples they could all play more than one instrument having specialized on Piano, Guitar, Drums etc first.
This quote from Gladwell caught my eye
| Quote: |
| Yeah, and particularly when the four guys who are playing together 1,200 times under very, very trying circumstances are themselves insanely talented, right? So it’s not four schmoes — it’s, for goodness sake, it’s Lennon, McCartney, and Harrison. (I’m not going to mention Ringo Starr.) Each one of whom individually could have had an extraordinary career as a rock-and-roll musician. We had three of them in the same room for years playing together. So there you have this kind of recipe for something extraordinary. |
I'm interested in him mentioning Ringo in what seems like a negative way. I remember reading that after the roof-top concert that Lennon, who was never long on praise, wrote to Starr to tell him what a fantastic job he did. Lennon also said that Ringo was already a big star around Liverpool before anyone had heard of the Beatles and even if they'd gone no where he'd have been picked up by another group that was going places in the 60s. That is why the Beatles hired him when it was pointed out that Pete Best wasn't up to snuff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| WindOfChange wrote: |
| Even Gladwell himself says the 10000 hours thing from Outliers is wrong, and that its always used out of context: Theres an audio file (podcast) and the full transcript. |
I've not read that book. However his clarification in that transcript doesn't affect how most people use the basic idea, which is that it takes a long time to get good.
The text points out that chess grand masters have to be smart as well as having to practice - but surely no one ever thought the contrary could possibly be true, "rule" or no rule? I'd actually say that chess is a poor example, because it's not specifically "practice" which is going to improve chess skills, it's more looking at and understanding multiple games. That also takes time, but it's not necessary to actually play the games yourself, so it's a bit different. And the time taken isn't remotely like learning something physical. And then a lot of people I know (including the odd grandmaster) could essentially beat anyone up to a fairly high level from the time they first learnt the rules of the game, which took minutes, not 10,000 hours.
That's vastly different from skiing, where even competent athletes in related fields often take a long time to pick it up. Flipping from skiing to snowboarding or vice versa is easy (if you can actually do either), but swapping from either of those to or from surfing... not so easy for most.
And I reckon one doesn't need 10,000 hours to learn to use google. But that is probably something one should before using The Beatles like up as an example.
Even I know that their line up changed in the period referenced. Practice is important, but so is attention to detail! Yeah, and hands off Ringo, dick.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In 99.9% of cases it does take a long time to get good. Perhaps not 10,000 hours. The amount of time probably depends on the type of activity, how you are defining "good", and natural talent/physiology. Many skiers like to think they are "experts" on 2 weeks a year - which imo is laughable, try saying you are an expert at any other sport while only training 2 weeks per year. The better skiers I know would talk about their experience in number of seasons on snow, rather than weeks - which is probably telling.
@davidof, correct, when it comes to endurance sport quantity is way more important than quality. As you say the vast majority of Pro X country skiers training is relatively easy/slow. I suspect for downhill skiing quality is much more important e.g. a session with coach, drills, or pushing yourself on some challenging terrain are probably much better for improving performance than just racking up hours pottering about on gentle pistes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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does the long base mile endurance training not count as quality? I believe it would in their disciplines.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@davidof, correct, when it comes to endurance sport quantity is way more important than quality. As you say the vast majority of Pro X country skiers training is relatively easy/slow. I suspect for downhill skiing quality is much more important e.g. a session with coach, drills, or pushing yourself on some challenging terrain are probably much better for improving performance than just racking up hours pottering about on gentle pistes. |
Yes,
If you look at the Mikail Shriffin link above she's doing about 5 hours training per day but not all on snow so the idea above that she's got to be an expert on 8 minutes per day is laughable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Davidof - Of course it takes a lot of time to become an expert, the 8 mins for Shriffin I quoted has nothing to do with the amount of training she does.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Though the issue is @davidof, is not a Pro, and neither am I, along with 99% of others on here.
So I like others, who are fortunate to live all Winter in the mountains, and are not Pro's, can be more selective about when to have a session.
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that is true, although I did three 100km days last season (alpine so lifts included) I also did some 1 hour days. I wouldn't qualify any of my alpine skiing as "quality" skiing though and the number of hours in a season isn't anything like enough to significantly improve from where I am.
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I usually do 2 - 3 hours lift accessed inbounds a day for 40-50 days a season. Can't deal with crowds, so as soon as the buses disgorge all the people, and they get through the queue for rentals and passes, I tend to disappear off into the back country for a walk or go home if that's not happening. I don't think my skills improve season to season, not enough time or focus on that, but the need to avoid crowds and hence spending a fair bit of time walking uphill definitely helps with the fitness.
At a few of my local bigger areas, in those 2 or 3 hours of fast lapping lifts (first tracks pass, avoiding busy spots etc) I reckon I get more vertical in than most would in a regular day, but my hours on snow would be way less than a keen person making the most of a holiday.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| does the long base mile endurance training not count as quality? I believe it would in their disciplines. |
Most would refer to their high intensity days as the "quality" sessions. Although there's an element of semantics, as yes the large number of base miles are vital also.
My point is a recreational endurance athlete they can go and rack up hours of relatively easy training and probably improve without much real thought as the sport is mostly physiology. Whereas skiing is much more technique based, so mindlessly racking up hours on snow is not enough. You need some kind of coaching/active learning/focus.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I haven't reliably counted my hours over the years, but I do know the vertical. I decided to convert that to hours figuring about 250 vertical (not traveled) feet per minute. Discovered that over 50 years of skiing it only equaled under 2000 hours.
Must be a math error somewhere here...
29,383,305 ÷ 250 ÷ 60 = 1,958.88
I'll run out of life without a hope of being an expert I guess. 
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