 Poster: A snowHead
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Any snowheads dropping 400 quid per night for a bed in a mountain refuge?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/super-rich-ruined-ski-holidays-luxury-chalets-courchevel/
As a paid-up member of the middle class, I have always, arrogantly, considered skiing as something of birthright, along with National Trust membership and the occasional evening at the theatre. But, having begun with full disclosure, I sadly now have to expose how the mighty have fallen. Caught out recently in a discussion about the best ski schools for kids, I realised I have been having quite different holidays from the one per cent. Of course, I knew to namedrop a good independent operation – Evolution 2 perhaps, or Oxygene, both of whom I’ve had good experiences with. No, no, no. Apparently, Reeds is a much better option for young chargers. Affiliated to the Surrey public school of the same name – which counts actor Tom Hardy among its alumni – its Ski Racing Academy is the place for aspiring Winter Olympians. I’ve been outclassed at my own game. But what’s new? Luxury holidays have always existed and have always been slightly out of reach for most. That’s the appeal. Ogle at Chalet Coquelicot in Courchevel – at anything up to €280,000 per week, it is hard to imagine who could be comfortable there. Or set your cap at Les Fermes de Marie in Megeve – a classic haunt of the jet set. For £1,300 per night during the February half term and a minimum seven-night stay, they should have called it Les Fermes de Marie Antoinette. Royals or the super-rich need only apply. What is new, however, is that the super-luxe market has grown in the last two years, despite the fact that ski holidays are more expensive than ever and the cost of living crisis is taking its toll on the average skier.
“The reality is, there is resilience in that sector,” said Simon McIntyre, managing director of online travel agency, Iglu.com. “Luxury and five-star accommodation is performing well in comparison to this time last year, with double-digit growth.” So who are these favoured few flocking to – and monopolising – the slopes? According to the trade body, Mountain Trade Network, they are the 12 per cent of UK skiers (up from eight per cent in 2022) who take an average of two ski breaks a year. A decent salary might afford most of us a Three Valleys lift pass – full area from £325 a week this winter – but not a private jet or skiing butler. Evidently, there are different levels of luxury: the haves and have-yachts. The truly loaded have fuelled endless development in the Alps in recent years, with super chalets that cost a cool half a million for a week’s stay, notably featuring a helipad and cinema. When there is this type of money to be spent, is there any wonder previously affordable resorts start to court the super-rich? Val Thorens, for example, once the haunt of student ski trips and shoebox-sized apartments, has been tastefully upgrading itself for the past decade with five-star addresses such as the Koh-I-Nor and the Pashmina.
But rest easy my middle-class friends, it’s not all bad news. As Rupert Longsdon, CEO of the Oxford Ski Company pointed out: “What would have been a fairly ropey block of apartments has now been knocked down to make way for a well-built, well-appointed equivalent, and there is a market for this.”
How to spot the super-rich on the slopes Their skis cost more than your holiday You could turn a few heads on a pair of Head 8 Series x Porsche Design skis, complete with Dakar Rally-inspired racing stripes. But they only cost £1,470. Why not spec a pair of Bentleys instead? Crewe’s finest luxury car maker has a partnership with Bomber Ski, whose Centenary Gold Edition at £3,069 cost over twice as much as the Porsche planks, and come with 24-karat gold plated inserts – a reference, apparently, to the Bentley EXP100 GT. They sport moon boots – intentionally Sweaty Betty thermals don’t cut it for the super-rich. They prefer curated couture, styling expensive unironic moon boots with Chanel or Fendi undies, topped off with a Bogner one-piece, reminiscent of Roger Moore’s yellow number from The Spy Who Loved Me. Does your teen want a £1,500 Moncler jacket to wear to school? Blame Kylie Jenner.
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Their huts are more plush than your chalet Mountain refuges – isolated high-altitude huts offering cheap dorms and cooking facilities – are a lifeline for hikers and ski tourers on long-distance adventures. Val d’Isère’s version – the new Refuge de Solaise – is something else altogether. It offers luxury suites, a spa, a cinema room and a library – all from a modest £400 per night. For wealthy walkers only. They’re annoyingly good The super-rich are usually very good at skiing. All of those lessons with the top instructors did not go to waste, so you can’t even escape them by selecting the toughest pistes. *Ben and Florence have taken a helicopter transfer to Courchevel 1850. They’re having lunch at Le Cap Horn then après ski at La Folie Douce.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Another example is this in Braemar, it used to be a reasonably priced place to stay to ski at Glenshee.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjs, aye, before it had its makeover I seem to recall it was quite a popular place for an overnight stay for coach parties on a tour of the Highlands. I doubt they'll be getting many of that clientele now.... 
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I can't get too worked up about relatively rich people complaining about very rich people.
With rising lift pass costs the traditional ski holiday is becoming even further out the reach of "ordinary" people. Especially if you want to go to the likes of courcheval, which has for a long time been considered one of the more upmarket places.
Even the summer refuges are hardly "cheap". But then again most hikers expect a nice 3 course meal these days.
That's not to say there's not options out there. HI in Canada has a wilderness pass - 7 months of unlimited stays at 8 wilderness hostels for just £250. (You can only stay a week at a time so you can't actually live in one all winter). Of course no lifts so you need to earn your turns.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Funny but still Telegraph Clickbait. Plenty of cheap, crappy accommodation available, especially in France! And Decathlon skis have never been better.
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Is Le Cap Horn better than Soucoupe in 1850? I shall have to give it a try next time I'm up there, provided my DLX jacket doesn't get me barred 
And Folie Douce is just classless bling with a few good dance acts. But what would I know...
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Sorry I lost interest when i read skiing is something of a birthright..... dry your eyes out mate.
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It's been trending that way for the past decade.
Luxury is the new middleclass.
There are plenty options for poor people, like Bulgaria or Greece.
The rich folk can cruise around Switzerland or Colorado.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Notice the lazy journalist doesn't mention Refuge de Solaise also has a dormitory.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Funny but still Telegraph Clickbait. Plenty of cheap, crappy accommodation available, especially in France! And Decathlon skis have never been better. |
And plenty of reasonably priced, good accommodation available in resorts all across Europe which don't get mentioned in The Telegraph which have lift pass prices relative to how far the average recreational skier/boarder can travel in a day
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Such a non-event of an article. And lazy assumptions. Like people who have yachts are mega-rich. I had one once. Kept on the Cote d'Azur. Had to pee in a bucket. I now sail Other People's Boats. Even cheaper.
Skiing has always, as pointed out above, been an expensive holiday, out of the reach of most people. Was certainly out of reach of my family, when I was a child.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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"The rich" haven't ruined my holiday - why would that happen? They haven't ruined my sailing, either. If they want to spend silly money, that's their lookout. I feel all the "branding" is a bit pathetic but you don't have to go on a ski holiday to encounter people whose precarious sense of themselves depends on making sure people know they've spent a lot of money!
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You know it makes sense.
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@pam w, but don't you just smile when you realise they are skiing exactly the same slopes as you and possibly having as much fun.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I did our "boys" trip to Val D'Isere last January for £740 a head self catering (inc lift passes).
We stayed in a decent enough apartment that was a 3 minute walk to the main lifts and you could ski back to, so yes, while the mega-rich can spend thousands in Val, the 3V or whatever, it can still be done on a reasonable budget, and we still ski the same slopes, dance to the same bands in Cocorico's!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Tut
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
don't you just smile when you realise they are skiing exactly the same slopes as you and possibly having as much fun
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TBH, I don't give the matter a second thought!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Surely we need author Matt on here. It's his... birthright 
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Yes, I always considered skiing to be a rich people's activity, for certain values of 'rich'. The fact is that for Brits the ski market got much cheaper and easier with the advent of budget airlines and the channel tunnel, together with the ridiculously underpaid staff that UK operators used to be able to staff their accommodation with. So for a while it was more of an everyman thing, but since Brexit and Covid it's more reverting to its previous position in the class structure 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My impression of the super rich-most can't ski very well, and stop after a hugely expensive lunch in the latest place to be seen. The blingier the ski wear and the dafter and more "designer" the skis, the crappier they perform on the slopes. The article is just journalistic ski fodder to pad out the Telegraph's ski section.Entertaining, but not to be taken too seriously! There are still plenty of small apartments in the 3V for those on a budget! And we do all ski on exactly the same pistes..
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| johnE wrote: |
| @pam w, but don't you just smile when you realise they are skiing exactly the same slopes as you and possibly having as much fun. |
Exactly this
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| Quote: |
So for a while it was more of an everyman thing
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I don't think it's ever been an "everyman thing". It's just that those of us well off enough to take families skiing tend to know other people in the same income bracket! The staff in the old-style British catered chalets were on to a good thing. Their contemporaries working in hospitality in the UK could not have afforded to go drinking most nights and skiing on many days. It was a highly competitive job market and, from my own quite extensive experience of "lower budget" catered chalets, the kids who got the jobs were pretty smart, worked hard and played harder. It was a fun job, from which they learned a great deal. To suggest they were some kind of exploited under class is rubbish.
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| pam w wrote: |
| To suggest they were some kind of exploited under class is rubbish. |
I don't claim to know what @Chaletbeauroc was trying to say, but 'ridiculously underpaid' doesn't have to imply an exploited underclass: usually it means people with the ability (which usually means familial wealth) to be able to work for very little. Look at interns in journalism and the publishing industry, or jobbing actors, or humanities PhDs doing tiny amounts of paid teaching for years in the hope that they'll land the coveted academic job: they're all paid very little, and what the majority have in common is the largesse of wealthy parents.
& one side effect of that is that the competition (as you say, @pam w, there was high demand for the low-paid jobs--indeed, that's what kept wages down) meant, along with cheap flights, that skiing became more affordable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@JayRo, I don't think that was the case - definitely not in the sort of chalets I stayed in. Kids got their keep and often a ski pass, a pair of tatty boots and skis, and £50 a week or so - plenty to buy some beers. How many school leavers in hospitality jobs in the UK in those days would have had £50 "pocket money" just to spend on having fun? they'd have struggled to keep a roof over their heads and feed themselves. Quite a few Snowheads did chalet or resort rep jobs, back in the day. Not because they had wealthy parents. It was not remotely like being an intern in a high flying financial institution. And in the days I did that "cheap flights" weren't really a big thing - all our early trips with our kids were packages.
And on the whole people doing the cheapest holidays didn't stay in catered chalets, more likely in rabbit hutch apartments. Several of our trips were cheap because of travel by coach.
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There was high demand for the low paid jobs in chalets because they were an absolutely fantastic way to spend a winter! And there still is - as many posts on Snowheads testify.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w, I'm in agreement. Chalet jobs were a great option for 18-21 year olds to experience a ski season, without any upfront savings needed. Of course, you weren't going to make any serious money, but the perks (free lift pass, free accomodation etc.) made up for it. It certainly was a better deal than being in UK working a minimum wage job while trying to cover rent and entertainment.
I've never worked a chalet job, but have done something similar working for little in terms of cash to live somewhere beautiful in the mountains. Worked for me and many others. Can't really call it exploitation when we know exactly what we are signing up. If you think it's a bad deal fine don't sign up for it, but for some of us it works.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I used to see chalet staff in the big supermarkets, sometimes, manhandling hugely laden trolleys. Cheerfully getting on with it, working together as a team. Coping with tight budgets, some stroppy guests. Terrific work experience. I admired them. Bags of initiative.
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Exploitation is just a communist word for envy.
Staffing a ski chalet is the easiest job in the world.
You serve some Cornflakes, scrub the dunny, go ski, microwave the meals, get on the smash, and do it all again the next day after 3hrs' sleep.
Everyone wants to do it. Anyone can do it.
Supply exceeds demand.
Pay is low.
Get over it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not sure how the rich has spoiled ski holidays.
Everyone holidays within their budget - surely? Excursions, heli rides, etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| I used to see chalet staff in the big supermarkets, sometimes, manhandling hugely laden trolleys. Cheerfully getting on with it, working together as a team. Coping with tight budgets, some stroppy guests. Terrific work experience. I admired them. Bags of initiative. |
Shouldnt this be in the cleverness thread?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Gored wrote: |
Not sure how the rich has spoiled ski holidays.
Everyone holidays within their budget - surely? Excursions, heli rides, etc. |
Exactly. But I think skiing has an expensive reputation. I know plenty of people who tell me that they could never afford to ski, but it transpires that their holiday is a two week all inclusive in the Canaries or Balaerics in the middle of August. Comparing two families with 2 adults and 2 children each, theirs usually comes in significantly more expensive than our £4k at Easter. They'll still argue that skiing is too expensive though.
The rich haven't spoiled it for me, but I've never skied at the typical upmarket resorts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think skiing, with kids, is just too much like hard work for lots of well off people - and they'd never consider it INSTEAD of two idle weeks all-inclusive in the Balearics.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Comparing two families with 2 adults and 2 children each, theirs usually comes in significantly more expensive than our £4k at Easter. They'll still argue that skiing is too expensive though.
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Is that comparing apples to apples though? I'm sure you can create a cheap ski trip for less than an August holiday. But most people would rather fly and have all inclusive than drive and self cater. Also the first ski trip you have the outlay of buying all the clothing.
Skiing is only "cheap" if you have the gear already and are willing to be a dirtbag and skibum the season. Even then it's still expensive compared to hiking for example (although you can probably match hiking if you are willing to ski tour 100%).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nah. The trend in upmarket more chi chi holiday accomodation has been going on in all markets for a while. Check out some AirBnB cottages in the Lakes or Dales or Cornwall for starters. What it means eventually it drags the baseline no frills price up because those places refurb too. But clearly there are only so many money no object customers and a lot of beds/ chairlifts to fill.
Europe's probably got off lightly for skiing compared to the US which has seem crazy post Covid accommodation price hikes. Like 100%+ in lots of places.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Owlette wrote: |
| I think skiing has an expensive reputation. |
I think you're right about that. As you and others have mentioned already, skiing is certainly more expensive than e.g. hiking, but it can be done much more cheaply than I think some non-skiers imagine, especially for a first trip when you really only need a suitable beginner slope and a handful of progression runs for later in the week.
First time skiers or skiers on a budget can fall into the trap of "my friend who is an experienced skier raves about (e.g.) Zermatt, therefore I should go there"... whereas a beginner would be far more suited to most other ski areas, most of which would be much cheaper.
Having someone (or a forum) to point them in the right direction is really important, especially if budget is tight. If you piece it together carefully, the following prices for a couple are totally achievable for a week in Jan / Mar:
Flights (e.g. Grenoble): £200
Transfer (e.g. public transport or shared transfer): £150
Accommodation (Airbnb shoebox apartment): £250
Ski passes for beginners (e.g. Chamrousse, beginner area to start then more later in the week): £200
Ski hire: £150
= £425pp excluding food, which I don't think is overly expensive compared to many other holidays. A few years ago, before Covid / recent inflation it would have been cheaper still
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I just paid under 500 Euro for a (hopefully) nice flat in Briancon for 5 nights in the middle of the ski season. The 60 odd Euro for a lift ticket is great value for a full day of quality entertainment.
I don't see skiing as expensive at all really.
*The $2200aud return airfare from Australia is another story however. Although that is not a consideration to you Brits who can get to Europe for a fraction of the price.
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the only way I can drop more than $200 nz a day on snow sports is I if I pay for a helicopter, and even then it's "only" $1300 ish, which I consider to be excellent value for money
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| Quote: |
Flights (e.g. Grenoble): £200
Transfer (e.g. public transport or shared transfer): £150
Accommodation (Airbnb shoebox apartment): £250
Ski passes for beginners (e.g. Chamrousse, beginner area to start then more later in the week): £200
Ski hire: £150
= £425pp excluding food,
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Even if your prices are correct, you haven't added equipment costs. Many don't have suitable warm clothing. Would you want to rent a helmet, which may have taken a load of impacts? Buy or rent goggles?
Then of course you can't expect beginners to teach themselves so ski school at a minimum, but many snowheads will tell you private lessons are much more productive. I suspect even ski school is at least €200 per person for the week.
I get loads of emails from Jet2 offering all inclusive trips to the south of Spain at around £400pp and that's all inclusive in a decent hotel with pools, beach next door etc.
Short trips will never be "cheap". Season lift pass and lots of days to offset flights is the way to go for cheapest "cost per day" skiing. Of course cheap and good value is not the same thing. I can do a month in Canada for £2k all in (food, transport, accomodation , lift pass etc.) which is not "cheap", but I think decent value. Especially compared to what those having to go in school holidays pay. Although it used to be much cheaper (£3k for 2.5 months was doable a year or 2 before covid!).
In comparison, last year in Nepal costs were about £10 per day hiking (3 meals and accommodation), flights maybe around £600, permits around £50. Visa around £70. So 3 months hiking there comparable cost to 1 month skiing in Canada.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Comparing two families with 2 adults and 2 children each, theirs usually comes in significantly more expensive than our £4k at Easter. They'll still argue that skiing is too expensive though.
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Is that comparing apples to apples though? I'm sure you can create a cheap ski trip for less than an August holiday. But most people would rather fly and have all inclusive than drive and self cater. Also the first ski trip you have the outlay of buying all the clothing.
Skiing is only "cheap" if you have the gear already and are willing to be a dirtbag and skibum the season. Even then it's still expensive compared to hiking for example (although you can probably match hiking if you are willing to ski tour 100%). |
Ah, but saying what people would rather do is looking at it from a different perspective, not a cost one. We'd rather ski than spend two weeks on a sun lounger, but that's not a cost factor. Also, self catering wins for me. Buffets are my idea of food hell.
You don't have to spend a lot on clothing. My first salopettes were £3 on ebay with local collection. My jacket was given to me. Kitted out my eldest for £20 via gumtree. Lots of people also go 'holiday shopping' before an August trip, buying new clothes especially for it. These are the same families that tell me that skiing is too expensive.
We're pretty practical. We've just booked ski school for Easter week at €210 per child for 6 days at 2.5 hours a day. That works out at €14 ph per child, which is terrific value when you consider that that they're learning a skill, plus has the added value of acting as childcare for us parents for a couple of hours a day.
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@Owlette, what you are saying is that your family enjoys ski holidays and doesn't need to spend a fortune to enjoy them. The suggestion that some people's extravagance somehow spoils more modest holidays for the others, is very odd. Someone who can't relish something they have because other people have "better ones" is in for a very sad life.
But DOTM is quite right about the "chi chi" accommodation. Photos of an AirBnB cottage in remote areas now show mainly the "interior décor" and "lifestyle" touches such as a bottle of white wine in a smart bucket, or a vase of flowers. At one point the main concern of potential renters would have been whether there was an indoor toilet.
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