 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi, we are a family of 5 who are wondering how doable it is to drive to Austria from the southeast of England via the Eurotunnel this Christmas? We have driven to the French and Swiss Alps before in high season and found this relatively easy. However, I have heard that you need winter tyres to drive to Austria, but I'm not sure if this is correct? It's also a longer drive. I am also struggling to find affordable self-catering accommodation in Austria looking at VRBO and AirBnB. Can anyone recommend an Austrian snow sure resort with affordable self-catering accommodation? Preferably ski in/ski out, although my understanding is that this is quite rare in Austria. Not sure how true this is though. We have never been to Austria before, so know very little about it. Thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Motherofthree, a couple of points. Yes it is a bit longer driving to Austria compared to most French or Swiss resorts, but as a fraction of the total driving time it's not that much of an increase. Many people choose to drive via Luxembourg and fill up there as fuel is cheaper there than most other EU countries. Is there just one driver or more than one to share the driving?
As regards winter tyres then it's not just Austria who may require them (or more accurately they require winter or all season tyres that have the 3PMSF symbol), I'm pretty certain that French alpine departments also have a similar requirement in winter? In any case I'd highly recommended that you should have either winter or all season tyres when driving to any destination in the alps. There are several threads on sHs about winter tyres e.g https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=4996584&highlight=winter+tyres#4996584
As regards finding self catering accommodation then apart from VRBO and AirBnB the local tourist office websites should have details of all accommodations e.g in the Zillertal https://www.zillertal.at/en/accommodations/accommodations
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Motherofthree, We used to do the trip when ours were little. It can be done in one go but you're looking at 12 or so Hours from Calais so best to plan a stop on route. Christmas will always be more expensive but in Austria a lot of self-catering places sign up to their local tourist offices rather than Airbnb. For example, here in Flachau, "Happy Flachau" apartments is listed and they have space at Christmas. Price is pretty reasonable too. This place is about 100m from where I live, 50m from the skibus stop or 400m to the lift and I've never heard a bad word about them. Link here: https://www.happy-flachau.at/. The Snowspace Salzburg is our local area and linked to Zauchensee, so definately snow sure. You're correct in that there isn't a lot of Ski in Ski out options as most Austrian Ski Resorts are valley based. More broadly, Lift Passes are about the same cost as France, Ski Lessons similar, but you'll probably save 20% on costs of eating lunches compared to France/Switzerland. DM me if you need more help.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Motherofthree, When our sons were younger we did the trip 3 times, Kirchberg, Serfaus and Ischgl, for Feb HT via the tunnel. For the trips to Kirchberg and Ischgl we left on the Friday and stopped overnight in Gunzburg and Metz respectively, for the trip to Serfaus we did in one go. Each tip we drove back in 1 go. Sons were mid teens so were fully entertained by electronic devices.
There are loads of threads for best routes and we've done both via Belgium/Lux and France via Metz. Personally I don't think it makes much of a difference, and many SHs have their favourites.
Looking at my old TR https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3021357&highlight=serfaus#3021357 I see it took 14 hours to get to Serfaus. Probably similar for return trips.
as @Alastair Pink, and @RedandWhiteFlachau, say use the resorts website accommodation section. I've found the Austrian tourist office websites much better for finding accommodation than French ones.
We didn't stay in ski in/out places, but don't in France, and it isn't an issue to us.
I would recommend giving Austria a go. If you don't like it, you can always return to France, if you enjoy Austria it adds another alpine area to visit. We alternated between France and Austria after the Kirchberg trip.
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| Quote: |
I'm pretty certain that French alpine departments also have a similar requirement in winter?
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No they don't.
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| pam w wrote: |
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I'm pretty certain that French alpine departments also have a similar requirement in winter?
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No they don't. |
Thanks, it seems the requirement is either to have winter tyres or carry snow chains? Personally I'd have both, as winter tyres will get you through lots of snow covered roads where the alternative of having to fix chains is a bit of an inconvenience to say the least, and when you have alternating stretches of snow covered and then clear roads then having chains on limits your speed and it's not a good idea to drive with chains on a clear road for too long as the chains will get a lot more wear and tear.
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No, for sure winter tyres are a big asset. But not compulsory in France. I always had winter tyres - but I had chains too.
I, and several people I know, were obliged by the police to put chains on top of winter tyres - or be sent back down the mountain. I have also lost traction, with four good winter tyres, on a not-very-steep hill with a couple of inches of very slushy snow, and had to put chains on. For that reason, whilst I would if necessary drive with all-season tyres and chains (which I can put on very quickly if necessary) I would not choose to drive with just winter tyres on a snowy day. One time I left my chains behind, as I had to pack a whole family and their skis into my car, I regretted it. Had to leave the car, stuck on a steep bend up to my apartment, hike up (with two small kids) to get them, then get down and put the chains on in order to avoid it getting buried and causing a blockage. But because a lot of Austrian resorts are down in the valleys, perhaps chains would very rarely be needed on top of winter tyres there.
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@Motherofthree, we've been driving from Cambridgeshire for the last 12 years at half term. It is fairly simple, as long as you prepare and have two drivers. We leave early on the Friday morning, stop overnight in Bavaria (previously in Ulm and Augsburg, now around Rosenheim), and then leave after breakfast with the aim of being on skis before lunch. On the way back, we leave at 6am and are home by 10pm with stops for lunch and then dinner at the tunnel or in Kent.
Chains and winter tyres are essential for Austria, though you'll not use the chains unless you are unlucky or you book accommodation up a steep slope. £40 will get you perfectly decent chains for most cars - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Goodyear-77912-passenger-chains-approved/dp/B00FSDNX3K?tag=amz07b-21?
Winter tyres can be bought on steel rims and delivered to your door or to your preferred fitter from https://www.mytyres.co.uk/steel-wheels-winter.html at prices which can be around £150 per corner unless you drive something obscure. They'll last you 4-5 years if you fit them from November to March each year, and the upfront cost is about the same as a peak period flight plus transfer for one person. You'll need somewhere to store them, though some tyre places may do that for you at about £20 per year because it gets them regular business.
Accommodation has been covered - go direct via the tourist office website or search for apartments or hotels in your preferred area. Easiest access is to the Skiwelt, Kitzbuhel and Zillertal via the Inntal route through Rosenheim/Kufstein, but we've also regularly visited Saalbach-Hinterglemm and the route to St Anton and the areas west of Innsbruck is a similar length overall.
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Both Austria & Germany require vehicles to be equipped with winter (or all season) tyres if the road conditions require it. In practice this means if you are driving to Austria in the winter months you will need to have winter tyres (snow chains are not an acceptable alternative). Unless you are heading up above the villages you are very unlikely to need snow chains (I have been living here for over 20 years and have never needed them despite going skiing in allsorts of weathers).
I would agree about tourist office being the best and cheapest source of accommodation in Austrian resorts, choose your resort then have a look. Ski in / out is far less common than in France as the resorts are generally villages in the valleys. Snow sure at Christmas is a tricky one, the most most snow sure are (in general) also the most expensive. Maybe look at the Zillertal resorts (Mayrhofen etc) as it has a glacier at the end of the valley. Ischgl or the Arlberg (St Anton / Lech) are perhaps the most snow sure but finding reasonably priced accommodation is not easy to say the least. Pretty much all the resorts now have extensive snow making set ups so if you choose one of the bigger places eg Saalbach Hinterglemm or Ski Amade you should be OK for at least some skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thank you so much for all your replies. That's interesting to know that the best place to find self catering accommodation in Austria is via the ski resorts' tourist offices. It sounds like quite a faff to drive all the way to Austria and the winter tyre requirement is an extra expense. The self catering accommodations I have been able to find are in general more expensive (and larger in size) than in the French Alps. I think we have come to the conclusion that if we are going to Austria, we will book a package through Crystal Ski or Sunweb, as that seems to be much easier and more competitively priced than the DIY option. At the moment we are looking at Zell am See for Christmas. My main worry is that there won't be much snow there at Christmas though, as I can see it's not a high ski resort....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Motherofthree, Christmas is early season - if good snow is your key criterion you need to put that at the top of your priorities and compromise on something else. As @munich_irish notes, the most snow-sure resorts are also the most expensive. You need to look high to have guaranteed ski in/ski out snow in France, too.
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@Motherofthree, if you're going to Zell am See (a very pretty location with a Christmas market held in the town square) then if the snow conditions should be poor there is the insurance of skiing on the glacier at nearby Kaprun which is included in the lift pass.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks, yes I am aware that the most snow-sure resorts are the most expensive ones. I have noted that there is the nearby Kaprun and Saalbach Hinterglemm if the snow conditions in Zell am See are not great, but it seems to be a bit of a trek to get to these places from Zell am See. How easy/difficult is it to get to Kaprun if you're staying at the bottom of the Schmittenhöhebahn in Zell am See? Can you get there by skiing, or do you have to take a bus? I can`t tell from looking at the piste map. It would be interesting to know what the snow conditions have been like historically in Zell am See at Christmas.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Motherofthree, see https://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Zell-am-See/history for details of average weather patterns across the season.
December is usually OK, and from Christmas onwards is prime season and there will likely be good snow all the way to the valley with air temperatures likely to be around +2 to -2 during the day and maybe down to -10 overnight if you are lucky. That early in the season the lake will not be frozen, and indeed in recent years it has remained unfrozen for all or almost all of the winter.
Kaprun is a 10 minute bus ride away from the centre of Zell, but that's just to the edge of the village. The Maiskogel slope there is actually lower than much of Zell, but it now links to the glacier via a long gondola, saving the extra 15 minutes on the bus to the glacier base station. Kaprun's glacier is a good option at either end of the season, but it's a small area with a lot of drag lifts and it can be very cold and windy and it's no place to be in a whiteout as there are no trees or indeed anything else to guide you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Motherofthree wrote: |
| Thanks, yes I am aware that the most snow-sure resorts are the most expensive ones. I have noted that there is the nearby Kaprun and Saalbach Hinterglemm if the snow conditions in Zell am See are not great, but it seems to be a bit of a trek to get to these places from Zell am See. How easy/difficult is it to get to Kaprun if you're staying at the bottom of the Schmittenhöhebahn in Zell am See? Can you get there by skiing, or do you have to take a bus? I can`t tell from looking at the piste map. It would be interesting to know what the snow conditions have been like historically in Zell am See at Christmas. |
We have skied most years at Christmas in Zell since we bought our apartment there in 2012 and have always been able to ski the majority of the Schmittenhohe, conditions haave varied from a strip of artificial snow to perfect grromed pistes with plenty of fresh powder but they have always had the resort open and able to ski back to the town.
To access the Kitssteinhorn, if you have your car anyway I would recomend driving to the Gletscherjet/Panoramabahm as the queues at the Maiskogel first thing can be big, there is loads of free parking at Gletsherjet and its a quicker route to the glacier. If you get there early you can park very close to the lifts. We also regularly drive to Salbach but parking can be a little more tricky and an early start would be recomended.
Let me know if you have any more questions
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Motherofthree, if you are thinking of flying, I'd be tempted to DIY it. Most tour operators in my experience are not great for families of 5. Pretty much every Austrian hotel will have family rooms that usually are 2 bed affairs with interconnected bedrooms - but you won't or rarely get these on tour operators. Plenty of great snow sure resorts within 60-90 mins from both Innsbruck and Salzburg.
My sister has a place in Zell and us a lovely area. If you do end up there I'd recommend staying central. We absolutely love Hinterglemm and Saalbach which is now linked depending on conditions although we have never skied over to Zell yet
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Motherofthree, Good shout on Sunweb, they have some great options here in Flachau.
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@Motherofthree, in terms of hassle in advance of the holiday, booking with a tour operator like Crystal or Sunweb is indeed the easiest option. You simply pay your money and then wait in the hope that the company is still functioning by the time you leave 
DIY means a bit of legwork up front, and being more organised. Booking flights and transfers yourself is not difficult, but you also have to be well insured and prepared to rearrange to cope with delays, cancellations and life generally. Driving means extra expense on tyres and chains and insurance and breakdown cover and headlamp deflectors and spare bulb kits and hi-vis vests and so on, and then the driving itself will be long and may mean an overnight stop somewhere.
For us, driving makes sense because flights at peak times are around £400 per person, transfers are around £80 per person each way, and parking at our nearest airport is about £120 for the week. That's £2360 plus accommodation, kit hire and passes before you even get to meals and drinks. Driving is £200 on Eurotunnel, £300 on fuel, overnight in Kent at £40 and an overnight in Germany for £100. European breakdown cover and insurance can be split between a skiing trip and a summer holiday if that works for you, so with insurance plus breakdown plus other car bits including tyres and chains, it's about £200 per year, for a total of £840. Yes, there's an upfront cost in the first year in buying tyres and chains, but if you'll be going again annually the first year is pretty much 2/3rds of the price of flying, while the second to fourth years are about 1/3rd of the price.
I've also often heard people say that driving involves a long time sat in a car, and it does - our outbound journey is a leisurely 2 hour evening drive to a hotel in Kent, 90 minutes via Eurotunnel to France, 10 hours including breaks across 4 countries to an overnight in Bavaria and then 30-90 minutes the following day. Our return from Austria is typically 14 hours of driving and 2.5 hours of breaks in total split across two sit-down meals and two coffee/loo stops. However, they're wrong in thinking that this is much worse than flying - for us, flying looked like this:
4am start to drive an hour to the airport
Park the car, wait 10 minutes for a bus, take the bus for 10 minutes to the airport
Queue for 20 minutes to check in the bags
Queue for 30-60 minutes to get through security
Walk 3 miles through Shopping Hell to get to the main waiting area 
Wait 60-90 minutes for the gate to open
Wait 20 minutes at the gate to board
Wait 20 minutes on the plane to depart at 07:30
2 hour flight to Salzburg, arrive 10:30 local time complete with headache due to the 3 lads from London who were singing Arsenal songs all the way having started drinking at 7am in the airport
Wait 30 minutes for luggage
Find the TO rep and get pointed to the correct transfer bus
Wait an unexplained 90 minutes for the delayed flight from Manchester, with no communication from the rep apart from "Don't leave the bus"
Depart the airport at 13:00 with no food apart from a bag of crisps between 4 people because you expected to have lunch on arrival in the resort
90 minute journey to Hinterglemm, plus:
- Stop in Kaprun to drop off passengers, 10 minutes plus 15 minute detour
- Stop in Zell to drop off passengers, 15 minutes
- Stop in 3 places in Saalbach to drop off passengers, 15 minutes
Arrive in Hinterglemm, 15:45
Total journey time - 11 hours... so not a lot in it really, and we typically arrive less tired and stressed than people who flew.
Plus by driving we usually ski at least 5 hours on the Saturday, we can drive to the supermarket rather than carrying shopping back in bags for over a mile, we have more luggage allowance, and we can easily have a day trip out to other ski areas or can eat out elsewhere, e.g. from Saalbach we've driven to Zell for the evening, and had a day out in Maria Alm or Kaprun without having to worry about how we got back.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Motherofthree, I don't get why you think there is faff in driving to Austria compared to France? OK getting winter tyres, but as other have mentioned above you can switch these for the seasons and effectively extend the life or normal UK tyres, or change to all seasons.
Driving time is similar to say 3 valleys, Alpe D Huez and others. When we went at HT we expected a shitty drive. Some trips were good, some bad.
As @ousekjarr, explains so brilliantly, I would prefer driving to flying, but I'm lucky as the tunnel is close by, but I have an hour drive to LGW in the "wrong" direction 
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Thank you everyone for your replies, they are very helpful. @ousekjerr, I think you are right that driving can be less stressful than flying and getting a transfer bus. I can definitely see the advantages of driving, especially the fact that you can stop at a big supermarket en route and you can have the extra skiing time on the Saturday, but we still find the long journey very tiring plus the queues approaching the ski resort on a Saturday in peak time can be horrendous. Plus if we had to buy new winter tyres just to go to Austria, this is a big extra expense. We live quite near the Eurotunnel, so for us it is a shorter drive to France than to Austria. Regarding the weather, I'm reading between the lines that there is not always great snow in Zell am See at Christmas and I would be very disappointed if there was only a strip of artificial snow there.
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@Motherofthree, snow cover at Christmas is always a risk just about anywhere except on a glacier. Zell will have >80% of the resort open 7 years out of 8. Saalbach will be something like 19 out of 20. Kaprun is there as backup, with glacier skiing from September to June.
By comparison many French resorts will have snow everywhere, but maybe not enough to cover the rocks, while the lifts will close 2 days per week due to high winds.
If you want a 100% guarantee of snow, don't go in December, or go somewhere high and preferably with a glacier.
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@Motherofthree, whilst it is impossible to know what the weather will be doing a few months hence there are some general observations that are useful. Snow tends to fall at lower levels in the eastern alps than in the western alps (its further from the sea) and the resorts are generally valley based rather than higher up the mountains. This means more of the slopes, especially the lower ones, are grassy meadows which need a lot less snow to to provide reasonable coverage. I too would be a bit cautious about booking a Christmas ski trip to Zell but in recent years Austria seems to have had better early season snow than France, of course no guarantee for this season but the risk is there for most places especially with climate change becoming more noticeable.
The heavy traffic tends to be on the autobahn south of Munich but not so much at Christmas more weekends from late January to early March depending on various countries' half term weeks. There are some well known queuing points eg the Zillertal but with the resorts more spread out than in France and also most resorts in the valley rather than a long way above the valley the traffic is usually OK. Going home on a Sunday evening is often the worst.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Of course no one has pointed out the main advantage to driving to Austria instead of France is that you will end up in Austria and not France!!
I’m driving to Austria in January after many years of saying I would but never getting round to it. I’m not doing it to save money I’m doing it because I want to drive through the Alps in winter. In fact it’s costing at least double what it would have cost me to fly on a package.
A couple of things that I don’t think have been mentioned that might be worth considering - and this could be for Austria or France. Accommodation can still be booked through a tour operator if you are driving, I’ve booked with Crystal and the hotel I wanted is £600 accom only instead of £1000 as a package. And if you time it right you can fit all season tyres to your car for not a lot more than similar quality standard tyres. They might not last just as long and they are probably a bit worse for mpg but you don’t have the hassle of extra wheels hanging around and having to change them etc. Just need a set of chains as you would normally.
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Thanks for your replies everyone. After having read your replies and given driving to Austria some thought, we have decided to give it a miss and fly to Zell Am See on a packaged deal. I wonder what the situation is like in Zell Am See in the (few) years when there is barely any snow? Also, how easy/complicated is it to get to Kaprun and Saalbach Hinterglemm by bus, if you're staying in a hotel by the Trassxpress lift?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Motherofthree, easy .just get the direct bus on the main street. Google it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Motherofthree, very easy to be a 'ski bus banker' to Kitzsteinhorn glacier (kaprun). Zell is going to be a gamble at Christmas but the town is beautiful, truly so with snow. There is also an excellent vaulted Bierkeller under, I think, Hotel Zebzelter which is well worth a visit. You can ski across to Saalbach via an often icy red run. Regarding driving from south-east England, it is very doable, we used to stop over in Stuttgart which is around 6.5 hours from Calais and opens up a lot of Austria in 3-4 hours the next day. We usually fly to Munich and hire as it saves time and money!
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Thanks for your replies, that's good to know it's easy to get a bus to Kaprun and Saalbach from Zell Am See.
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You know it makes sense.
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We've driven to Alpbach in Austria several times, usually due to making a last minute decision to go meaning flights were too expensive. It's a hell of a drive, especially when we would do it in one hit, without an overnight halt, usually 14 hours. Last time we did it we stopped in Metz overnight. The first time we did it, we bought winter tyres and chains, but never needed them as we were staying in the valley. We then changed the car a few months later and were left with the tyres that wouldn't fit. To be perfectly honest you can get away without them unless of course you're going to be driving on conditions that necessitate them. Its better to decide if you need them based on necessity rather than letter of the law, hope that helps.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BRi87, that's dangerously misinformed. You may have had a visit where there was no snow and the temperatures were always +7C or higher, in which case you can indeed "get away with it". On the other hand, you could find that it starts snowing heavily, the temperature is -2, the road hasn't been gritted and is now completely white, and your options are to plough on and probably write off your car or someone else's car and/or life and then discover that you are uninsured and also facing a fine or prison time in Germany or Austria, or you can pull over and wait for the weather to change, which could be hours or days.
The Austrian police occasionally set up roadblocks on popular routes to check for winter tyres, partially because the Dutch are notorious for ignoring the requirement and then having accidents. Don't take the risk - you probably wouldn't drive in the UK on bald tyres, so why is it suddenly OK to drive in Austria on something which is just as dangerous for others?
Having found myself driving in heavy snow on multiple occasions, I was very glad of the winter tyres, the -30 screen wash, and the chains I had as backup. I've used my chains once - to get up the 300m steep slope to the apartment we were staying in during heavy snowfall, but they were essential then, and I carry them for that reason. The alternative was to carry all the luggage up that hill by hand, or drive up it the next day when the road was clearer (which would have meant turning around and parking half a mile away).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks everyone for your replies. We have changed our mind regarding Austria and have booked a self-catering apartment in Courchevel 1650 instead. We think it will be easier to drive there and we feel more confident driving to France as we have done it before. We also don't need to buy winter tyres, as snow chains are enough in France.
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FAQ
