Two-tiered pricing based on liability waiver!?

A snowHead

I received an email from Mt.Bachelor yesterday announcing several things but most notably this:

Season Pass Pricing
Mt. Bachelor has implemented a new pricing approach for season pass products, which will be followed by a similar change in pricing for many of our ticket products for the upcoming winter season. In simple terms there will now be two prices for these lift access products, a lower priced option that, similar to year’s past, requires you to sign our standard release of liability and a new higher priced option that does not require you to sign a release of liability.

This change is a result of the current legal landscape in Oregon. In recent years large lawsuits against outdoor recreation providers in Oregon, including many related to the inherent risks of skiing, snowboarding, and mountain biking, have started to significantly threaten the outdoor recreation industry. (end of copy)

I read the waiver and you are giving up everything; basically its a covenant not to sue. For my senior midweek pass it would cost $140 more to not sign the waiver.

As off-putting as this is, I can't necessarily say I wouldn't do the same thing given some of the damage awards that operators have had to pay out. Bachelor is owned by Powdr (sic) Corp, as is Snowbird and some others. I did not see this change applying to the other areas, so their comments about this being driven by the Oregon legal landscape appear to be somewhat legit.

So far we have Dolomiti Superski requiring third party liability insurance, and now this. What's next? Don't answer that!

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Scooter in Seattle, Switzerland requires 3rd party liability insurance just to live there … it’s not so weird … if you did not live in such a litigious country it wouldn’t be a problem.

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Liability insurance avoids the need for stupid litigation.

When I knocked a €700 camera lens off an edge; I just phoned up the insurance and the owner was compensated within days of sending in repair quote.
That was insurance at less than a handful a month...

Much cheaper than the resort value a single week at $140 to insure it.

I know which system I prefer.

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Interesting development but how can they hold up on an total waiver not to sue? Waivers aren't effective against outright negligence or deliberate action are they? E.g. a resort skidoo driver runs me over while I am on a marked run. It's a bit concerning the free for all it would make it on dilligence from the resort owner if every passholder waived.

3rd party insurance requirements in Europe are generally no big deal. Travel insurance policies are cheap and I feel a bit better knowing there may be something backing up that drunk prick who just took me out etc.

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Isn't the 3rd party liability cover is an Italian requirement not just Dolomites?

@Scooter in Seattle, are you skiing without insurance cover? Are your pockets so deep you can afford to just cover any eventuality? Or are you're arms just too short (and you keep your fingers crossed)?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

In English law (or Canadian), you can't sign away your rights. Plus this kind of thing is written by lawyers - it's hardly a fair contract as the customer obviously doesn't have legal advice. A lot of it seems like theatre. Every heli company has a compulsory waiver... and it doesn't add up to much, other than that customers can't claim that they knew it was vaguely dangerous.

I wonder specifically which type of risk they're trying to trade off there, exactly. It may be the same thing: almost all customers will likely opt for the cheaper option, and the effect is that the resort can claim that they knowingly therefore accepted greater risk. I'm not convinced that will work in court, but time will tell.

Nothing signed between resort and punter would affect the liability between customers, of course.

After all it is free

This is interesting (and yes, it is two somewhat related issues). I do have applicable liability insurance, but it is not specific or limited to winter sports. The entire subject of "winter sports insurance" is simply not a thing over here; I just googled it and its about travel insurance, not liability. I've been skiing for 49 years and the only place I've ever come upon the subject is on this site. Apparently as with avi risk, it is handled differently and the line is neither bright nor straight.

I'm curious, do y'all get "summer sports insurance" when you go to a lake? I would not, because again my coverage (and I have no reason to think mine is atypical) is on a broad enough form. If you hit a big 'ol hook from the 8th tee into someone's window, are you saying your homeowners/auto/liability coverages wouldn't apply, and you would've needed special coverage? (and less top hand Very Happy

)

To me, much of this winter sports insurance stuff looks like a way to make money selling insurance to people who may already have it, like at the rental car counter.

I've read that Mt.B is chapped at having to pay out a large sum to the estate of someone who died there in a place where that's definitely possible if your luck was bad. And the massive implied waiver on the ticket apparently was insufficient to "protect" the area from the claim, and this new one is their response. Its nasty.

When and if I hear from a lawyer licensed to practice in Oregon I'll update. Right now, I'm not going to sign that thing.

@Scooter in Seattle, The winter sports insurance in Europe is mainly to cover getting taken off the hill after an injury. Helicopter rides are expensive.

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Has Batchelor had to fork out to that family where the father killed the kid through poor/ ignorant decision making?

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The difference is probably that, for most people here, our skiing is outside our home country. Most people living in the UK won't need / take out additional third-party liability insurance for a weekend away in the UK, because it is probably covered by their home insurance policy. When going abroad, whether winter or summer, additional insurance is strongly recommended and in some places compulsory.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@rjs, here's why: in spite of being a lifelong skier with many other lifelong skier-friends in the US, until I saw mention here about the requirement in Dolomiti, the concept of "winter sports insurance" had never presented itself to me. So for me, this instantly went from "never heard of it" and frankly "sounds like BS" to a compulsory requirement, including the necessity to prove coverage if asked by the authorities. So yes, that's kind of a big deal, and one I wanted to get sorted before getting on the plane. And it is another example of why I choose to spend time here: I learn stuff. The takeaway for me is: I got this one covered, but it got me to thinking maybe I need to revisit repatriation coverage.

A snowHead

The OP mentioned Dolomiti. I think that was covered previously elsewhere, but I can’t remember where. But for information, the site on Dolomiti ski passes does have this in its FAQs (my emphasis):

“Must I possess a third-party liability insurance policy covering damage to third parties or is it included in the skipass?
From 01/01/2022 on, every user of the ski areas must have third-party liability insurance. The insurance is not included in the skipass. Those who do not have this insurance can buy it at the skipass offices.
Possession of third party liability insurance does not have to be proven at the time of purchase of the ski pass, but must be shown in case of police controls.”

So the skier doesn’t necessarily need to have previously bought ‘wintersports insurance’ - the 3rd party cover can be bought on the day, at a price, with the pass, by those who need to do that then.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The Nz way of doing this is great - can’t sue anybody for injury. It’s all covered by a state run scheme - get a tiny payout for getting murdered or whatever and 80% of your wages for as long as it takes to recover, along with healthcare costs covered.

The net result is those of us in Nz are free to do whatever dumb poo-poo we feel like safe in the knowledge that lawyers are just there for buying and selling houses, and physios get loads of work.

No off piste insurance needed either. Just push that red button on the inreach and sit back and wait for the free chopper ride to hospital Very Happy

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Reminds me of a tale from when I was a London despatch-rider in the 80's:

Plod to newly arrived Kiwi motorcycle-courier "licence and insurance please sir"
Newly arrived Kiwi courier "insurance... er... what's that mate?"
Plod "come with me sonny..." Laughing

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Haha yeh insurance is optional on cars

Makes for a lot of 16 year olds driving around in noisy Subaru Imprezas

There’s a % of the annual car licence fee that goes to the insurance scheme. Businesses with staff have to pay a % of wages into it every year and it’s risk based so a ski area would pay more than a library

I never read the heli ski waiver but I’m fairly sure it’s just a consent to allow use of photos on social media Very Happy

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@philwig, ^^That's Canada? You're doing it all wrong there....

I've never signed anything like that to get on a heli in NZ ! I also dont pay until the end of the day. So they only get my money if I come back in one piece Very Happy

From memory, the form here is like a quick age, weight, perceived level of ego, emergency contact thing and thats about it. I'll have a look next time I go and see what the fine print says.

After all it is free

@Chaletbeauroc, ah, perhaps that’s what I was thinking of, maybe.

I seem to recall I had third party liability with my push bike licence too.

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@under a new name, Cycle insurance, which would include liability, was compulsory up until around 2012. It's still available, although I imagine is much more expensive now; I've never felt it necessary, nor a general liability insurance, although I was careful to ensure that liability on my property was covered by the household policy.

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@Chaletbeauroc, yeah it was 2006 when we moved to CH and cycle insurance was compulsory, although not iirc (entirely possible i don’t!) terribly well controlled.

I may also have been conflating the 3rd party we need for the rentals.

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@under a new name, There was a yearly sticker you had to display on the bike. I definitely heard of cases when I worked in Basel where cyclists were being stopped and checked (also for lights, bell, etc. etc.), although I never was myself.

Rental policies are something I've heard of but have never come across, either as a renter or a landlord. I'm not sure if an agency could insist on it, but it's certainly not in any way a legal requirement.

@abc, yes we know where he resides. Have you not noticed he plans to ski in Europe?

I was referring to his Euro trip and annoyance at Italy (not just Dolomite) requiring 3rd party liability cover. Yes I know lots/most of NA residents will have cover. But if they're covered why has @Scooter in Seattle, got a beef about it.

As to what eventuality; As we're
discusing 3rd party insurance obviously, losses suffered by 3rd parties. Life changing injuries to a child that are deemed to be your fault are going to empty most bank account pretty quick (3rd party cover is usually in 7 figure region).

As to why most UK travelers take out ski holiday indurance, its often specifically excluded in other policies we hold and few of us have medical cover for normal life as we don't need it.

You know it makes sense.

@JudgeMent4l, so as you know he’s not living in the UK, it’s entirely possible ok to ski without extra insurance because it maybe already covered. Why were you sound so shocked that he “ski without insurance” only because YOUR policy excludes ski holiday?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Chaletbeauroc, pretty sure our bank insisted on it (and not just to protect themselves.

But all this stuff was a bit “fire and forget” *

* i.e. Mrs U manages it Twisted Evil

A snowHead

@Scooter in Seattle,
Have you never seen 'Blizzard of Ahhs'?

In the UK TOs require you to either take their travel insurance or prove details of your own insurance, if travelling abroad. IIR it should cover at the least cancellation, travel delay, personal injury (in resort and on the pistes), illness, 3rd party liability, kit loss/theft/damage.

The topic of season ski insurance is an annual event topic on snowheads - usually starting about this time of year!

A snowHead

@under a new name, Your bank? For rental insurance? Why would they be involved?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Brits have a rather different view on insurance than people in many other countries.

In the states, there’s a concept called “self-insurance”. Though oddly enough, not too many people heard of the term itself even though they practice it all the time. Basically, only potential lose that are so large that it would ruin a significant portion of your estate needs to be insured. Small lose can be better absorbed to offset the potential insurance premium.

With that view, majority of Americans don’t insure everything and anything. Trip delays? Sure, just pay for the extra hotel cost. Lost kits? Consider it an opportunity to upgrade your kit! So on and so forth. The concept of “come out ahead” above the premium paid is never a consideration. Because that’s not what “insurance” are for.

The two different approach toward insurance also created two different insurance marketplace. I’m always envious of the reasonable cost of annual winter sport insurance available to UK residents. But the same coverage in the state could easily cost 10x as much. The high cost simply justify “self-insurance”! About the only thing we US residents insure against are medical, home and car. (Both home and auto insurance also includes liability), because those are potentially large enough lose to justify the premium.

The past 2 years, because I’ve traveled rather a lot. Considering the odd of “something happening” with so much travel, I bought an annual travel insurance. I did have an incident that resulted in a claim. The recovery? Less than the premium I paid over the 2 years (but more than the 1 year premium, which in theory “justify” the purchase of the insurance). You get the drift…

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I "self insure" for travel delays and equipment loss, I wouldn't want to do it for a helicopter rescue from the hill. A friend needed a helicopter ride in Italy after dislocating his shoulder in a fall, the arm was stuck at an angle to his body and the patroller felt that it would risk nerve damage to take him down in a sled, it isn't just life threatening injuries that can require a flight.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Chaletbeauroc, no idea. Too long ago. Although it was an era when we could only use our mortgage provider's insurance Shocked

After all it is free

They should just not let you ski there unless you sign the waiver…

@Scooter in Seattle, have I got this right¿ mnt batchelor wants you to sign a disclaimer saying you will not sue them for THEIR negligence or pay them an extra fee. Could that be legal¿ it would not be in the uk.

The issue of you carrying third part insurance in Italy is a completely different matter.

@Kenzie, it’s been a couple years since I’ve used a tour operator but I cannot recall a demand that you supply insurance details, only that you decline theirs.

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Two-tiered pricing based on liability waiver!?

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