 Poster: A snowHead
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There was another thread started by Stanton but got hijacked into environmental/global warming/whataboutery which was not what thread was about. I think this is very serious topic though, looks like Russia is indeed about to completely cut energy supply to Europe and a very major impact on ski resorts is not avoidable.
How will this look at ski resorts? Any SHs have any inside knowledge? (without getting drawn into arguments about global warming, energy sources, politics etc)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Are resorts not very energy-efficient anyway? I read that in Switzerland they're responsible for 0.3% of consumption so I doubt they'll turn them off. They made a point of keeping them going during corona as well so although the price might be bumped up hopefully that will be it.
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@eightbobnote, I am sure there will be skiing, I think when there's brownouts (I can't see how there won't be) and energy threats to critical services and industry (hospitals, airports, meatpacking plants) it won't be business as usual in resorts
Possible things on menu are reduced lift opening hours, reduced frequency of cable cars that will wait till full before going, reduced snowmaking and grooming, possibly some sectors possibly not opening at all, 19 degree limit for heating in hotels, restaurants, no heating in boot rooms, reduced frequency of bus or shuttle services.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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While it is clear that ski resort operators, and perhaps almost everyone, have been trying to reduce energy consumption for some time, it is also clear that there is more low-hanging fruit to be picked: California is roasting and yesterday folks were asked to reduce usage and they immediately did, to a significant degree. This avoided a brownout. So hopefully we, as well as the people who run the resorts will similarly heed the call when it comes. It is coming, and it is doable.
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If it comes to it I reckon snowmaking will be the first to be cut out, followed by lifts that only service single slopes.
What could be interesting/problematic are the international ski areas - what if Italy imposes restrictions, but not France or Switzerland?
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I feel stupid asking this question, but can someone explain to me like I'm a dummy: why is peak energy demand between 4 and 7 pm?? I would have thought during office hours. People cooking? People on devices drawing energy from data centres?? (Is there such a thing?) (Turning on heat/lights at home surely balanced by turning off in office?)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| I feel stupid asking this question, but can someone explain to me like I'm a dummy: why is peak energy demand between 4 and 7 pm?? I would have thought during office hours. People cooking? People on devices drawing energy from data centres?? (Is there such a thing?) (Turning on heat/lights at home surely balanced by turning off in office?) |
Cooking, yes. Here in Switzerland it's quite normal for some supplies to be limited at that time - in some apartment blocks, for instance, laundry facilities will be turned off for a while, same at lunchtime. Here we have our hot water and the old (thankfully now replaced by a pellet-fired system) electric radiator circuits which are controlled directly by the supplier and turned off for an hour or so around that time, although oddly it's not the same time in each apartment, nor exactly the same each day, presumably related to actual demand at the time. It resulted, and presumably still does for anyone still using it, in people leaving the heating on all day so they didn't come back from skiing to a cold apartment with no heating available until after 7-ish, with an overall much higher usage, just without the peak demand being quite so high.
I once worked on a system to predict electricity demand across part of the UK, in half-hour intervals, for a year or more in advance, and one of the most significant peaks was always on cup-final (and similar) days, when the effect of everyone switching kettles on for their half-time brew was hugely significant. In much of Europe piped gas supplies are not common, so if even half the population start turning their electric ovens and hobs on at around the same time each day it's going to be even more so.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Nevis Range in Scotland have moved to a 5 day a week trading and will be closed Tuesday and Wednesday until further notice.
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There are two distinct but related issues, aren't there? The overall cost to users, and the capacity of the system to meet peak demand - along with how to store "spare" energy efficiently at other times. There's surely scope for providing more incentives for us to use things like washing machines or dishwashers at 2am?
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You know it makes sense.
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This message from the company who operate ski lifts in Alpe d'Huez, Les Deux Alpes and La Grave has been posted on social media:
OFFICIAL COMMUNICATION OF FABRICE BOUTET, Managing Director Sata Group Aeon
Dear Customers, Partners,
Following the many requests about the possible closure of ski resorts for the coming winter, I want to reassure you. There is NO QUESTION that SATA Group operates domains are closing for the season. Our three stations: L'Alpe d'Huez, Les 2 Alps, La Grave, will remain open.
We do our best to ensure that the organization of the skiable areas gives full satisfaction to all our customers. Our group has been committed for many years to reducing its energy impact in operation. The crisis that all French and European companies are facing prompts SATA Group to accelerate its process of reducing energy consumption. The effects of this economic situation will not affect neither the opening perimeter of our domains nor the rates already announced.
I confirm for you the following opening dates:
- Alpe d'Huez: December 3, 2022 to April 23, 2023
- The 2 Alps: December 3, 2022 to April 30, 2023
- La Grave: December 17, 2022 to May 1, 2023
We look forward to welcoming you to our domains and sharing with you this new winter season 22.23.
Sincerely,
BOUTET Factory
General Manager
SATA GROUP AEON
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@pam w, Yes to your points on the market but putting on appliances at night unattended will give fire fighters more to do. Also many flat leases prohibit the use of washing machines through the night via noise clauses.
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Poster: A snowHead
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But most of us don't live in flats. And the whole point of the late, unlamented "night storage heaters" was to use cheaper power? I just googled "when do most house fires break out" and the answer is 6 - 8 pm, so shifting the use of some appliances to the wee small hours would not seem to constitute a huge risk?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, Mum and Dad still have storage heaters as does my rental flat all on what Economy 7 is called this week. Really going off what my brother in law told us as a fire fighter and what not to use at night. Dishwashers and tumble dryers especially. The risk does not increase but the consequences do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anyway, those firemen are just sitting on their bottoms at 3 am........
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Another ski resort thread hijacked by household warming whatabouterry. I could never run a washing machine at 2am as the clothes would dry damp by the the time you hung them up. Maybe 6am would work just before the off peak cut off at 7….I used to do this via timer. Nowadays my solar bank does the washing in the middle of the day.
Been doing a lot of testing of KWH consumption, so I’ll share my top tips (every little helps when you are saving the planet). Light bulbs and portable devices are pretty much irrelevant under normal use, likewise tv’s, computers, music….but worth plugging out if idle for long periods, some will draw power in standby.
The kilowatt killers are nearly always about heat / cold or suction / blowing….oven, hob, fridge, w/m, d/w, hoover, hairdryer. Obviously things like tumble dryers and hot tubs should be discouraged.
I had a spare American fridge freezer in the garage for storing excess garden veg / soups / and enough cold drinks for spontaneous party. That’s now gone once I finish all the soup as it was costing 500 EUR a year for little reason….could end up being very expensive soup.
The other easy thing to do is lower your d/w temp from 65 to 50, keep salt topped up and filter clean.
Also noticed my w/m run at 60 degrees will draw 2000w but reducing to 30 will only draw a few hundred. Huge differences in consumption will no noticeable difference in performance
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Alastair Pink, I believe, but do not know for certain, that Alpe d'Huez and other local communes has some sort of everlasting agreement with edf over some sort of subsidy on electricity supply prices that came with the deal to build the Grand Maison pumped storage scheme. Scheme includes the Lac du Verney just above Allemont village. Perhaps our local knowledge man @davidof can verify ?
Maybe ski resorts should think about constructing something similar in a "spare" valley ? Pump the water up at night with cheap(er) off peak and then regenerate the following day when the lifts are open.
I think Grand Maison scheme took about 10 years to build though........
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I should think the payback on a large pumped storage scheme would be well beyond the investment horizons of a ski resort. But I think a number of them already have local schemes to pump water up to the top of a local hill in order to feed the snow cannons.
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@pam w, It might well be but piggy backing on a scheme like the Grand Maison example could be possible. That scheme definitely paid for the big expansion of the ski area in the 80's.
Tignes was also built with "compo" money from flooding the old village, albeit that was for pure hydro. I think there were others. Convert them to pumped storage ?
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I don't know enough about the subject to have sensible ideas, really. But clearly pumped storage is inefficient, overall, and only makes sense as a means of coping with peak demand. Per KwH it pushes up costs and is bad for the planet. From a completely ignorant point of view I would advocate moving to punitive tariffs for peak time consumption. And road pricing, with punitive costs for rush hours. Like the railways.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I don't know enough about the subject to have sensible ideas, really. But clearly pumped storage is inefficient, overall, and only makes sense as a means of coping with peak demand. Per KwH it pushes up costs and is bad for the planet. From a completely ignorant point of view I would advocate moving to punitive tariffs for peak time consumption. And road pricing, with punitive costs for rush hours. Like the railways. |
Pumped storage is typically ~80% efficient which is pretty good. The main issue is such installations are expensive to build and require a suitable location, which is often in mountain areas of natural beauty. Lately there has been some interest in using old mines for pumped hydro storage.
Pumped storage is really useful for storing excess (nuclear) baseload and wind power during the night, plus of course making half time cups of tea during the World Cup.
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S-i-law has a number of tourist properties in Chamonix and just received a note from her gas supplier, any comsumption over last "few" years average will be billed at 2x rate.
She'll be blocking the heating at 21 degrees and any cold clients who can be bothered can light a stove. Contributing of course, to the local air pollution.
Of course, anyone in the business will be familiar with the "heating/air con not working" conversation ...
"is there a window open?"
"yes"
"well it's set to not work if the window's open. close the window."
"but we like the fresh air"
"..."
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've read that sites where glaciers used to be are often good candidates for pumped storage locations. Makes sense. Those opposed might have a tougher road, given that the site formerly held water, just in a different phase. Ye gods, a lake? We can't have that!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
She'll be blocking the heating at 21 degrees |
21 degrees, what is she running? A sauna?
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| davidof wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
She'll be blocking the heating at 21 degrees |
21 degrees, what is she running? A sauna? |
Maybe thats 21F?
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You know it makes sense.
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| skitow wrote: |
| @pam w, It might well be but piggy backing on a scheme like the Grand Maison example could be possible. That scheme definitely paid for the big expansion of the ski area in the 80's. |
that was my understanding, but only on the Allemont side of the area. I believe they get a rental but I have no idea about cheap electricity as mentioned above. I doubt that would be possible due to European competition legislation now.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@davidof, haha. 
But seriously, that's unreasonably cold for many people it seems. We ended up fitting wifi thermometers to the apartments so when people said "we're cold" we could reasonably and politely tell them to F-off.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
@davidof, haha.
But seriously, that's unreasonably cold for many people it seems. We ended up fitting wifi thermometers to the apartments so when people said "we're cold" we could reasonably and politely tell them to F-off. |
It’s crazy. Here in Australia there is a common thought that air conditioning is a basic human right. “How can kids be expected to learn in a classroom without air conditioning in summer”?
There’s a whole lot of 50 year old doctors, engineers, accountants, scientists etc that did just that.
Back on topic. When I visit France in January I will be turning off the heating if possible just like I have on every other ski holiday I’ve been on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sbooker wrote: |
| When I visit France in January I will be turning off the heating if possible just like I have on every other ski holiday I’ve been on. |
This! And open the windows once the lights are out!
Over here we are rightly accused of being heavy on the AC. In the Alps it seems they want to bake you. In Lech I finally asked for what they called "summer bedding"-big help.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
Of course, anyone in the business will be familiar with the "heating/air con not working" conversation ...
"is there a window open?"
"yes"
"well it's set to not work if the window's open. close the window."
"but we like the fresh air"
"..." |
Hah! I wish. The heating controls bit, I mean. Guests who insist on opening windows in the winter while the heating is on should be shot. Or burned at the stake, perhaps.
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@Chaletbeauroc, at least at the stake they’d be warm 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hmmm.
https://skiinglab.com/how-does-ski-lifts-work/
'How Much Electricity Does A Ski Lift Use?
The total cost of running a ski lift would depend on a number of factors. These include size of the lift, the capacity, the weight that it has to haul and other such factors. However, if we are to go by average any modern day ski lift would require a daily running expense of around $2,200 to $2,500 and a significant portion of it would go towards electricity costs.
While the consumption would vary depending on the factors mentioned above here are some figures that might be interesting to the readers. A fully loaded gondola or chair lift or even double-decker lift would require a power of around 1400 to 1600 amps for a period of 10 seconds. This is for a car with a weight of 450 lbs. When running at full speed it would require anything between 1000 and 1200 amps when it is running at full speed. When the lift stops and starts again you would need additional power to start the motor. Hence, the above would perhaps have given the readers a rough idea about the total electricity that would be required. The power consumption for a ski lift can range from 7.5 KW or 10 HP to around 750 KW or 100 HP depending on various factors mentioned above.'
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I'm wary of any website that quotes power in Amps.
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@Chaletbeauroc, ^+1
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@Bob, at least one lift round here has a 975kW max (and (I think) it’s neither the biggest, longest, nor fastest …)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Austrian snowsports website discussing energy usage.
Quote "The power requirement of all cable cars in Austria is 750 GWh (= 1.2% of the total domestic energy requirement) including technical snowmaking. To get a sense of the scale: more than 800 GWh per year are wasted in Austria just by standby losses of electrical appliances.
The total energy consumption per skier and day (for cable cars, snowmaking, slope preparation, gastronomy, heating and infrastructure) is 18.0 kWh."
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@Alastair Pink, that’s slightly sounding like ski resorts are marginal in the round …
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