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Barefoot running shoes...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I know there are a fair few runners and also people with some decent knowledge of running etc on here.

Just back from the Keswick Mountain Festival and spent some time talking to the chaps at vivobarefoot. Now clearly they are pushing minimalistic shoes, but wondering if anyone has or still does run in them?

There was a load of hype a fair few years ago about them, the pendulum seems to have swung a bit into they can be good for building up feet, achilles and arch support, but wondering if anyone has any real life experience?

Found a decent article here https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/shoes-and-boots/best-barefoot-shoes/buying-advice

cheers,

Greg
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For running, I have a pair of Vibram 5 Finger off-road shoes (what they now call the V-Trail I think). I like them a lot for hill running and hill walking and always feel like there's tons of grip, despite the sole being much less aggresively lugged than other fell shoes I own. I've never got on with them for use on harder surfaces though and I use regular trainers for that. I just found them hard work on my calf/achilles on tarmac, etc. and would be sore after a run. I suspect I just wasn't patient enough with starting small and building up the distance. I never really had that problem in the hills, which I guess is down to a combination of softer surface and the fact that every foot placement is different when you're hill running. I also use a zero-drop, very thin soled fell shoe from Inov-8. I feel like I get the same benefits as the 5 Finger shoes, with loads of grip and feeling very connected through my foot. I actually default to these nowadays for the hills and the 5 finger shoes get a lot less use.

For casual use, I have shoes and boots from Vivobarefoot. Again, I like them for the feeling of using my foot, achilles and calf more.

On the downside, they can be colder in winter due to the thin soles. You also get very little impact protection from sharp stones, etc., which can be quite sore on occasion, especially for the heel and arch of your foot.

Overall I'd be hard pushed to say that I've noticed a big difference from using them some of the time. However, I just like the idea of making my foot and ankle work a little more naturally for more of the time.
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@RobMcQ, cheers! What shoe do you use for tarmac running??
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Quote:

There was a load of hype a fair few years ago about them, the pendulum seems to have swung a bit


I'm not sure there was that much hype. People read born to run and got carried away. It became a bit of a cult, as much focused on anti-corporation as it was running. Then they all got calf injuries and it kind of died.

The trend for the last few years has been the exact opposite of barefoot running - bigger stack heights, and more cushioning. For tarmac it seems to be the way to go.
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@kitenski, think twice, and then think again, before doing this. Marketing hype is one thing, reality is unfortunately the other. Sure running 5km a week won't change much, but if you will be running anything more, make yourself and your body favor and don't go this way. There's plenty of researches and plenty of doctors dealing with athletes telling that barefoot running actually makes more problems then not.
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@primoz, thanks, do you have any recent links to that research? All I’ve found is from 2017 and around that time.
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@kitenski, honestly no. I have seen quite few in past when this barefoot running was at highest hype (could be from around year you mentioned). All of them were showing running in cushioned shoes was better for all the joints, from ankles, knees and hips to back. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it, but I would say that when running anything more then kilometer or two, go with proper running shoes, and use barefoot for walking if you want to do barefoot thing.
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@kitenski, I had the biggest flare up in my knee since my ACL replacement after using these for a few months. Maybe a coincidence but I’m back using normal running shoes and my knee has been much happier since
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@kitenski, I use the Asics GT-1000 for tarmac. For hard trails I have Inov-8 trail shoes.

Looking at some of the other comments, I'll throw in my conclusions based on my experience. Barefoot stuff works for me on softer, uneven ground, where your foot placement is different each step and the surface is relatively forgiving. It doesn't work for me on hard, even surfaces, where you're repeating the same motion over and over again and the ground isn't absorbing much, if any, of the force. That might be because I didn't take long enough to build up mileage / intensity slowly and let my body get used to it. Or it might be that your foot and leg joints / muscles just aren't designed to run on those hard, even surfaces and actually some cushioning is really beneficial to avoid injury.
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@Arno, aha cheers, did you start slow and build up distance on them and which ones did you try? Might be a case for me of if it's not broken don't fix it! Although I do have sore knees after the Keswick 10.7km trail run (probably due to the downhills) and do get achy hip flexors (probably down to being old and not stretching enough!)
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@kitenski, it’s a while ago but I generally used them for walking around and running on a treadmill at the gym - not particularly long distances. I suspect walking on pavement caused me the most problems because the treadmill has some give and I could run without a big heel strike
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I've run for about 15 years in Vibram 5 Finger's. Bit of a fair weather runner, but been happily running 50km a week in them on tarmac.

But they are not for everyone, obviously they only really suit people naturally light on their feet.

The only time I use more conventional trainers is the winter months when ground is near freezing. Lack of insulation numbs the soles of feet, which can then lead to bruising from running on sharp stones without noticing - until you get home and warm up!
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There is no evidence that barefoot running has any benefit, in fact the opposite is true for virtually everyone.

However, that is not to say that we should all run in the most padded running shoes. Too much padding can cause as many injuries as too little. There is a sweet spot which depends on your anatomy and gait etc. However it always involves some degree of padding and support.
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@NoMapNoCompass, do you have links to the evidence please?
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kitenski wrote:
@NoMapNoCompass, do you have links to the evidence please?


You don't need scientific papers. Just look at the real world examples. All the top road runners are using shoes with some cushioning -
in fact most of them are using pretty high stacks with a lot of cushioning. You might be able to get away with less for trails, but even there the trend seems to be more cushioning and decent stack height e.g. hoka speedgoats.

Running shoe companies spend millions in r&d, and it shows - shoes are better than ever. The difficult part might be finding the right shoe for your specific biomechanics and needs.

I have a friend who's a very competitive middle distance runner. She couldn't work out why each summer she kept getting niggling hip injuries. Eventually a physio worked out it was when the weather got warm she switched into flip flops with no arch support and the chain reaction of this was hip pain. Most people need some kind of arch support.
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@boarder2020, I'd like scientific papers, hence the request.
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kitenski wrote:
@boarder2020, I'd like scientific papers, hence the request.


I love sports science. But sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture of the real world rather than what happens in a lab. Running is tremendously complicated, we have been studying it for a long time and yet still can't identify which variables are linked to increased risk of injury. (Yes you can find papers regarding heel strike, impact forces etc., but the next one will contradict it).

You are not going to find a magic study that proves or disproves barefoot running. You will find a lot of polarised anecdotal evidence from individuals that suggest it's either the solution to all life's problems or the worst thing you can do to your body. The actual science is unclear:

We do know for sure biomechanics changes tend to happen when barefoot - decreased heel strike, shorter stride length etc.

But as this literature review from 2012 points out "at this moment, there is significantly more that we do not know about barefoot running than what we do know" (https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/fulltext/2012/09000/barefoot_running__biomechanics_and_implications.9.aspx) and our knowledge has not moved on much since.

Similar conclusion by this literature review "In conclusion, there remain more questions than answers at present. Future research may elucidate some of these answers, but current advice, based on tenuous justifications and associations between biomechanical factors and injury do not by themselves constitute a compelling argument for barefoot running. It may be that the running technique is more important, and so further research must distinguish between barefoot running and characteristics of barefoot running that may be implementable for shod running" (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/48/5/349).

This paper suggests overall injury rates are similar between barefoot and shod, but the types of injuries are different. Their conclusion is very misleading. When you look a bit more into the data the shod group are running nearly double the mileage (30vs16.5 miles per week) so musculoskeletal injury rate per 1000miles was actually higher in the barefoot group (although didn't reach statistical significance). It's not surprising that the two conditions produce different types of injuries, but this would suggest likelihood of overall injury is similar. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26130697/)

It's not rocket science. Look at what the people that are running high volume and staying injury free wear. The vast majority are much closer to the max cushion end of the spectrum than the barefoot end.
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@kitenski, I'd love to see the scientific papers as well, ideally based on a broad cohort of recreational runners over a decent period of time

@boarder2020, Adidas R&D E130m. Adidas Sales & Marketing and Selling & distribution costs €7.3bn. Shoes may or may not be better than ever, but good to see the E7.3bn is doing its job Happy
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@boarder2020, precisely my point, article from 2012 saying more research needed. I was hoping by 2022 they’d be more! I’m an open mind and interested to learn.

Nike throw money and 5% faster shoes at elite athletes they ain’t turning that down!
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Quote:

@kitenski, I'd love to see the scientific papers as well, ideally based on a broad cohort of recreational runners over a decent period of time


This doesn't exist. And even if it did there are too many variables you would have to account for. As one of the literature reviews I posted above points out - you would also have to distinguish between barefoot running itself and characteristics of barefoot running (e.g. changes in biomechanics) that could be implemented in shod running.

But again my question is - if barefoot running is so fantastic why do none of the top runners do it?

Quote:

Shoes may or may not be better than ever


If we are judging purely on speed there is zero doubt the current pebex (or similar foams) carbon plated shoes are massively better than anything before.
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kitenski wrote:
@boarder2020, precisely my point, article from 2012 saying more research needed. I was hoping by 2022 they’d be more! I’m an open mind and interested to learn.

Nike throw money and 5% faster shoes at elite athletes they ain’t turning that down!


People stopped researching it because there was no real interest one the born to run hype died down. It was always more novelty than serious research area.

Exactly, a shoe that improves economy by 4%, brands have shoes for over/under pronators, increased drop for those that suffer with Achilles problems etc. It's almost like using technology to design shoes is an improvement snowHead Go to amateur races and your local track club and look at what non-sponsored club runners are wearing - they have no financial incentives and are probably running at a more comparable level. Not many (any) in minimalist shoes!
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@boarder2020, carbon is certainly interesting but when I looked into it the seemed to be race only shoes as would wear out quickly for just training/park run etc
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There was a lawsuit against Vibram, making false claims regarding the benefits of their 5 finger shoes - as the health benefits couldnt be proven.

https://feelboosted.com/vibram-fivefingers-lawsuit-are-bad/
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kitenski wrote:
@boarder2020, carbon is certainly interesting but when I looked into it the seemed to be race only shoes as would wear out quickly for just training/park run etc


Yep most more serious runners have a shoe rotation - similar to skiers quiver. Tends to be something a little more cushioned for easy base mileage, something a bit snappier for tempo work/intervals, and then a race day shoe with a carbon plate. Some even use their race shoe for intervals - which probably makes sense from a training point of view, but financially can get expensive quick. Saying that there are some people that have put 300 miles plus into the Nike's and they are still going (I'm guessing there is some performance loss though).

There are a few shoes bridging the gap (e.g. saucony endorphin line have a nylon plate rather than carbon). Also decathlons kiprun line are bringing out their own carbon plated race shoe later this year which is made using the same pebex foam as the Nike's and while not cheap is more affordable at around £150.
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There have been a few top athletes, including Olympic medallists, who trained and/or competed barefoot. (And really barefoot, not with minimalist shoes). Zola Budd, Bikila, Herb Elliott, Tulloh, ...
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They certainly couldn't win now - it is impossible to win in a half or marathon distance event currently unless wearing Nike Vaporfly (or clones) style shoes. Such is the advantage.
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ecureuil wrote:
There have been a few top athletes, including Olympic medallists, who trained and/or competed barefoot. (And really barefoot, not with minimalist shoes). Zola Budd, Bikila, Herb Elliott, Tulloh, ...


Yep, there are always exceptions to the rule. But to give it some perspective:

- track spikes have traditionally been about as minimalist as you can get (ask anyone that probably bruised their heels the first time stopping in them!). For shorter track distances biomechanics are more similar to barefoot running (mid/forefoot landing, shorter stride, faster cadence etc.). Elite athlete doing sub 3min kms on a track probably needs less support and cushioning than an average person plodding qlong on tarmac. There is little doubt spikes give better traction than barefoot thouh, which seems like an advantage enough to wear them.

- Zola bud - "I would not recommend running on the roads barefoot. I never did". Bikila only ran that one marathon barefoot because his shoes fell apart and he couldn't find any new ones that he found comfortable enough (he won again 4 years later wearing shoes).

- all these examples were competitive 30+ years ago. Times have moved on.
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there are biomechanical arguments that could on for days regarding barefoot running, suffice to say as a "training" tool on appropriate terrain it can be useful, as to switching to a "barefoot" shoe it isn't the way of the future.
maybe think of trying a lower drop shoe but with a traditional sole rather than getting rid of everything in one go

if you want to read about the benefits of NATURAL running (NOT BAREFOOT) then have a read of the boot "natural running" by Danny Abshire, he is the guy behind newton shoes, the book gives a lot of insight into changes in stride length verses cadence and all the drills required to transition from heel strike to mid foot strike properly and safely
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I dabbled in POSE running, https://posemethod.com/running/ some 25yrs or so ago, paying for a weekend course with the top dude, Nicholas Romanov, well it was the height of the Yuppy Years Laughing

Whilst not barefoot as such, it is very much based on the concept of running bare-feet.

I still recall having the image of a todler running along a beach implanted in me, as they run, they almost look as if they are going to fall forward and topple over, and it's this momentum that you are trying to achieve.

If you run barefoot on a beach you naturally change your style, though not so obvious.

Though I did change my style to run more forward, with loads of drills, I think it affected my calves, and that's an issue I've had ever since, but there again I do a lot of cycling as well and amongst triathletes issues of calf/Achilles issues are prevalent.

The logic to POSE running was to reduce impact to the joints, and light shoes were recommended, but this was before the likes of Newton and Vibram etc

Ironically a couple of days ago I was running down a 10% incline fire-trail and I was very much adapting my style to almost POSE (to reduce the impact on the knees) and even nowadays if attempting to increase my pace I can find myself running more forward.

My OH does a lot of barefoot running on beaches, though twice now she's damaged metatarsals in her feet which we think is age-related.

Where we are currently we have kms of sandy beaches, but they are damn hard to walk on let alone run, I've been up in the Parc behind us (Cape Trafalgar) and the trails are deep sand as you find in dunes and it's feckin hard work.

Big Chapeau to Marathon de Sable runners!

@boarder2020, have you heard of another similar concept which was quite a fad in the 90's, Kerb Running?

It was where you ran out along a road with one foot in the gutter and the other on the pavement, then on the return you swapped.

It was developed by an Israeli Sports Physiotherapist Dr Youvebin Adover.
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I had some of these back 5 years ago. Had them about a month and really liked them for work etc. However I then wore them out to my work Christmas do, which was a country dance, and snapped my Achilles’ tendon.
I do wonder if the thin sole, heel drop relative to other shoes, and lack of cushion is played a part. There was a lot of stamping and jumping going on, but I have done that before with no issue.
I’d not recommend them for this use.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Bikila only ran that one marathon barefoot because his shoes fell apart and he couldn't find any new ones that he found comfortable enough (he won again 4 years later wearing shoes).

.


Bob Mills recently covered Bikila on Fighting Talk. Something like he was asked after the 1960 marathon "So do you all grow up running barefoot like that?" (think he was the first African long distance gold) to which he replied "No, I got some new shoes and they didn't fit" Laughing
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@Weathercam, Happy
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Arno wrote:
@kitenski, it’s a while ago but I generally used them for walking around and running on this treadmill at the gym - not particularly long distances. I suspect walking on pavement caused me the most problems because the treadmill has some give and I could run without a big heel strike


Yes, running on an asphalt track can be very traumatic for the body, especially if a person does not know how to run and immediately decided to run 10 km. The best way to prepare is on a treadmill, where you can increase the load and track your performance.
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