 Poster: A snowHead
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We've never done this, and aren't planning to, but a friend has asked if I'd tap into the SH wisdom to ask:
Where will be as snowsure as it can reasonably be 'guessed'; with short airport (<2 hrs) transfers?
France Switzerland or Austria are on the table.
We only know France, so thought Avoriaz/Morzine? But early December?
Looking for people's experience really, with all the caveats about past weather etc.
Oh, it's an adult couple, 1 week, no kids, beginners !
Thanks
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 8-08-22 14:36; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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go high.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've done Tignes and Zermatt successfully at that time but they are both beyond 2 hour transfers. Solden might be worth considering
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@DCG, Ok, thanks for that. @Bob, Names, need names 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have done 3 valleys in mid December - the snow happened to arrive the week before - decent enough covering but some runs were still closed, and not much below 1600 was open.
Maybe...consider going North? Scandinavian resorts would be more favourably snow sure, and a good for learners and families, and the Scandinavian Mountains Airport makes transfers short.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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While one is never certain of exactly the plan of the snowgods - a few areas that statistically tend to fair better in early December:
France: Tignes/Val D/Isere - the PSB was great last year, If I recall its been 7/10 years great - consider joining the bash?
France: Val Thorens - though could be limited depending on how early in December you are thinking - have done opening weekends in late November a handful of times and snow was decent - though links still closed
Italy - Cervinia
Switzerland - Zermatt, Verbier (if its a good year, weekend opening usually starts in November), Engelberg
Austria: Soelden would be my Austrian pick, Hintertux limiting for more than 2 days, the same with Kitzstienhorn. Added advantage of Soelden is not just the glacier, but also being the otztal valley if its a good year you can drive/bus to Hochgurgl or Obergurgl for more ski area.
Appreciate your short transfer time - if its a weekend trip the traffic is really not bad if you're driving - though you may struggle to find transfer companies operating if you want to book onto a shared one.
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@Richard_Sideways, Mmm, 3V I do know, and a bit risky? Or will snowmaking suffice?
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Book late, nowhere will sell out.
Nowhere really has particularly guaranteed conditions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If they are prepared to hire a car Cervinia is less than 2 hours from Turin airport. Just over two hours from Milan (Malpenso). Just need to make sure they specify winter tyres (the Swiss give you them automatically, the Italians don’t). Cervinia is usually good early December.
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@Charliegolf, I went to Cervinia 11th December last year and it was an easy journey from Milan. We didn't have the same depth of snowfall that my friends arrived at Val Thorens to but there was certainly plenty of good skiing to be had.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| T Bar wrote: |
Book late, nowhere will sell out.
Nowhere really has particularly guaranteed conditions. |
This.
As a general rule the East of Europe has better early season snow as do the Southern French Alps and Pyrenees due to the prevailing autumn weather systems (Mediterranean low pressure systems).
The issue is then, is anywhere actually open before Christmas. Generally that would mean higher resorts or those that are based near towns like les Sept Laux or Chamrousse where they will get the local punters out and don't rely on tourist traffic. You don't want to arrive at MegaBigResort on the first weekend of December and find it shuttered because there are no clients.
Last season we had continuous skiable snow (ie we could ski through to the end of the season) from the 28th November; generally the season starts a week or two earlier (Northern French Alps). First day piste skiing was the 5th December 2021 at les 7 Laux (1400 meters) but only one lift open ! They were late opening post Covid.
In 2019 we skied from mid November at les 7 Laux and most lifts were open by the end of November
16th November 2019.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As @davidof, wrote above it’s about whose open rather what’s the snow like . How’s this for a different prospective Try Spain .
Because of the early December Spanish national Holidays they fire up the snow making machines and prepare the pistes earlier in the Pyrenees earlier than the Alps and quite oddly the Pyrenees seem to get quite good early snow from memory.
A very good example is that Baqueira Beret, Spain premier resort , easy reach from Barcelona or Madrid , plan to open on the 25 Nov this year , this is worth reading
https://www.baqueira.es/en/news/baqueira-beret-closes-best-season-its-history
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| davidof wrote: |
.. as do the Southern French Alps and Pyrenees due to the prevailing autumn weather systems (Mediterranean low pressure systems) |
I'm not aware of any consistency there, would like to see some data if you have any.
I had a look at the PdS threads for first days skiing in the last 7 seasons.....some years it repeated on and off until xmas, others the early snow melted....but I think only 2015 had very poor coverage by normal lift opening (3rd week of Dec).
On average I'm talking about snow at 1500m.....some years it was to the valley.
2015: 21 Nov
2016: 5 Nov (50cm)
2017: 14 Sep (also snowed in Oct and Nov)
2018: 27 Oct (and again Nov)
2019: 5 Nov (the only really poor pre Dec year)
2020: 26 Sep
2021: 4 Nov
So first snow might be only 6-7 weeks away, but more likely late Oct - early Nov. It's another La Nina year which tends to bring NW flow to central europe early season.....as happened in 16, 17, 20 and 21.
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You know it makes sense.
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Going back to @Richard_Sideways, point earlier.. I note VT is opening in November. Might that be a goer in Dec?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Flaine normally opens the first week of December - short transfer as well
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Going back to @Richard_Sideways, point earlier.. I note VT is opening in November. Might that be a goer in Dec? |
VT in December is fine but for the 3V in general it depends what you mean by early December - w/c 3/12 or w/c 10/12? 3/12 limits you only to VT/Orelle or C1850 with no links in-between.
Meribel valley, LM, StM etc. open on 10/12 so the links will also be open that week. Around 30-40% of runs and big lifts only will be open on 10/12 across the 3V, this is normal. It will be very quiet though and you'll walk straight on to whichever lift you want.
Personally, I think the snow conditions are usually better in C1850 in early December than VT because it's less exposed and wind-scoured. VT can be great in December or brutal. It's not unusual for large parts of it to be closed for too much snow and/or too high winds. I would stay slightly lower in C1850 (you'll get a good deal that early) or Meribel/Mottaret/Reberty and just go to VT if the conditions are good.
If your friends don't mind a French oriented place or self-catering then Reberty would work well. Bruyeres is often the only way to the top from LM in the first week and they'd be next to it so straight in to VT or wherever else they want to go. I'm pretty sure the new La Masse lift opened first weekend last year as well and that will be a great area to ski in early December.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Charliegolf,
How early in December? What dates are they looking at?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Going back to @Richard_Sideways, point earlier.. I note VT is opening in November. Might that be a goer in Dec? |
But that's a 3+hour transfer isn't it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Kenzie, First or second week
@DCG, Yes, but I'm wondering if I shoud suggest they suck that up, for more sure snow. IF that would be the case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fly to Innsbruck stay in Obergurgle. We did this early December one year. Got a fantastic package via Inghams.... though haven't seen a deal like it since (iirc came with free lift passes)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Maybe...consider going North? Scandinavian resorts would be more favourably snow sure, and a good for learners and families, and the Scandinavian Mountains Airport makes transfers short.
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Much as I think the Scandi resorts are great, especially for beginners or more family-oriented groups, i wouldn't recommend them for early December unless you're local. It will be dark (very dark) and the weather can be brutal. Trysil will likely be open mid-late November, but that doesn't mean the snow will be good. Sälen tends not to be open until mid December. Åre is also close to an airport, and will be open, but quite possibly only the lower mountain, which is fairly restrictive and misses a lot of the best skiing.
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| T Bar wrote: |
Book late, nowhere will sell out.
Nowhere really has particularly guaranteed conditions. |
Absolutely this.
But if they HAVE to book flights earlier than a ~week before though, then Tirol is probably the safest bet at that time for combination of likelihood of early snowfall and glacier back-up if not. Even in the leanest years would normally have 5 glaciers open, and Ischgl and Obergurgl would normally be fully open by then too.
Caveat this year is if energy use will be restricted for snowmaking...
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
@Kenzie, First or second week
@DCG, Yes, but I'm wondering if I shoud suggest they suck that up, for more sure snow. IF that would be the case. |
Tignes or Val D'Isere.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Re. above weather patterns I should add that a med low does not have much impact on the Pyrenees. Med (genoa) low is good for southern alps...all 4 main ski countries and maybe further east into Croatia.
The Pyrenees benefit from an Iberian / biscay low, or NW flow that is too far west for the alps....often dragging up warm air into southern alps. Point is, it would be unusual to have a pattern that benefits both Pyrenees and southern alps....not impossible, but improbable.
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@polo, when was there ever lift served skiing in PdS in mid Sep? (Not counting commuter access lifts) … 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, eh, never. We’re talking early snow patterns, you don’t need lifts to be running to get snow, or slide down a hill
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| Fly to Innsbruck stay in Obergurgle. We did this early December one year. Got a fantastic package via Inghams.... though haven't seen a deal like it since (iirc came with free lift passes) |
I have checked Inghams etc and nothing like the bargain package we got in 2004. However sunweb do have some very attractive looking deals for Early December for there.... oh to not be tied to school holidays again..... not long now for me really (youngest turning 13 in Sep and eldest now 16)
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@polo, you need a bit more than "ooh ohh it's snowed on the webcams" from some over excited internaut though!!
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You know it makes sense.
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The usual advice is to go high and somewhere with a glacier. The high resorts tend to hold onto early Autumn snowfall but they often have poor weather and closed runs.
Lower resorts in the east that make all their snow often have more reliable skiing in December. Some of the lower Austrian and Dolomite resorts start to open in late November normally with better weather than the western alps and with more kilometres of runs and lifts open on their manmade snow. An additional bonus is that their skiing is easier to access and cheaper.
……..However there are possible problems brewing this year with water supplies and very high electricity and diesel costs. This will affect everywhere because all commercial ski resorts now rely on snow making and lots of piste grooming. Also how will the extraordinary summer heat affect the early season ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Verbier opens 7 days a week from the first weekend in December. It will have already been open on weekends from early November. Not typically a beginner resort but with Lac de Vaux and La Chaux you’re pretty much guaranteed decent snow, nice views and one of the best on mountain restaurants @ Dahu
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, those were all dates of my first slide, usually accompanied by photo / vid.....apart from Sep 17 which I didn't attempt. Having said that it only takes 10cm on a meadow to get me sliding, and it's often gone by afternoon. November has been reliable though to get either a decent dump, or some regular falls to build a base at 1500m.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@polo, you are clearly much more motivated than me, mind you, we need a few more cms.
Also, hardly data with which to plan an early trip, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Done several pre-Xmas weeks in Saalbach-Hinterglemm and never been disappointed.
Even in years with poor season starts they have 100% snowmaking, so in fact the skiing has been better in those years as so few people choose to go. Other years we have had fantastic early season powder
Short transfer times if you fly to Salzburg 
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FAQ
