 Poster: A snowHead
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Has anybody had any practical experience of driving a Tesla from UK to Alps. Thinking of Tigne in December, will have a Long Range M3 replacing existing car by then.
Comfortable with getting to the Chunnel but literally clueless as to what it’s realistically like on the other side.
Anybody done it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A better route planner :
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
Totally feasible. Go into resort well charged up so you can get some distance away. Winter tyres a must as I doubt you can get chains on a M3. Get your head around the Ionity network and that optimal charging is best between 0-50% - anything after slows up massively so better off driving and charging again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@userscott, there’s quite a long thread on this already somewhere on the forum. Several folk have done the trip.
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The Ski Podcast have also done an episode on this…..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thank you everybody, sorry - I had searched and somehow didn't find what I was looking for. Sugarmoma, those two links have answered 10000% of my questions.
The winter tires on Aero rims have arrived.. sadly no idea where the car is. 
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What range will the long range model 3 do in winter? My friend has the regular model and I’m sure he’s down to around 120 miles in the colder months 
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| damanpunk wrote: |
| What range will the long range model 3 do in winter? My friend has the regular model and I’m sure he’s down to around 120 miles in the colder months |
That sounds unlikely. In a worse case freezing scenario the SR should hit 200 miles in freezing cold conditions and the LR 225 miles, but anecdotal evidence from the various groups and trackers shows better performance with a widely agreed view that a standard range model should do 210 miles.
Don't forget, even with the reduced range they are still wildly more efficient. Even assuming worse case of 200 miles to a tank, that's 100 MPGe (!) and the current SR model should charge at 100 miles for every 9 minutes it's on charge.
Of course, a heavy right foot might be the cause - it is not a great idea to exceed 70 mph in any EV if range is important.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| userscott wrote: |
| damanpunk wrote: |
| What range will the long range model 3 do in winter? My friend has the regular model and I’m sure he’s down to around 120 miles in the colder months |
That sounds unlikely. In a worse case freezing scenario the SR should hit 200 miles in freezing cold conditions and the LR 225 miles, but anecdotal evidence from the various groups and trackers shows better performance with a widely agreed view that a standard range model should do 210 miles.
Don't forget, even with the reduced range they are still wildly more efficient. Even assuming worse case of 200 miles to a tank, that's 100 MPGe (!) and the current SR model should charge at 100 miles for every 9 minutes it's on charge.
Of course, a heavy right foot might be the cause - it is not a great idea to exceed 70 mph in any EV if range is important. |
Just checked my messages, he said 60% of regular range when it's snow/minus temps, around 120 miles he thought. Certainly made me think when he said he wouldn't attempt Aberdeen to the Lecht on winter range! No idea what the manufacturers figures are but that's the real world range he said.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think he may benefit from reviewing the guidance notes from Tesla and other manufacturers on driving in winter. There really are very few sources that state 120 miles or, to be honest, even close to 120 miles, in winter. These sort of figures are being achieved by people deliberately running the cars with the heaters, seat heaters, battery heaters etc on and in places with temps closer to -15/-20c. Unless there is a material fault with his car or driving style he really should be closer to 200 miles in the depths of a British winter. The average European range of an M3 in Standard Range configuration is closer to 220/240 miles, which is a figure taken from averaging a very broad spectrum of independent tests of M3 range in France/Germany/Austria/UK.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Our Kia gets very similar range to an M3, and I've _never_ seen it below 200miles on a full charge in over 3 years of ownership. It's very rare to see it below 200miles on a standard 80% charge.
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You know it makes sense.
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| luigi wrote: |
I really can't see the point of driving to the Alps for a ski holiday, esp from N of England and if you've got to buy a new set of rims and winter tyres just to do it!!
Surely it's cheaper/quicker to fly or even train?? And if you really do need a car while you're there, rent one. |
A topic that's been done to death, I'm sure. Personally I can't see the point in flying. Once you do the cost benefit analysis, with four lads with a few sets of skis, the driving becomes very cheap indeed. The time, well, I accidentally drove the entire way to Val Disere in December from Calais as I hadn't kept my eye on the clock and exchanged driving roles with my two co-drivers. It's just not a big deal for me.
I have a few cars, and all have winter wheels and tires. I frequently commute the length and breadth of the UK and wouldn't consider having a car in active service between November to February without them. It takes me an hour at start and end of season to exchange, and the cost of a set of wheels and chains isn't one that really affects me.
Having flown/driven all over Europe I know which I prefer, especially given the state of travel at the moment. My friends whom were flying out last winter didn't make it. We all had a wonderful time in fresh powder, and we didn't have to queue once! I even took three sets of skis!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@HilbertSpace, winter tyres if driving into the Alps in winter, I thought it was law but in any event it’s minimum standard for me, I have 2 sets of wheels/ tyres and swap both our cars over to winters November to March here in U.K.
Re original point - I could not contemplate stopping every 120 miles on route to charge my car. It’d drive me crazy. Once on the continent we just bash on through stopping only to refuel or at 200 miles intermediate to swap drivers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Re original point - I could not contemplate stopping every 120 miles on route to charge my car. It’d drive me crazy. Once on the continent we just bash on through stopping only to refuel or at 200 miles intermediate to swap drivers. |
It's going to be difficult for me, too, my current vehicle does 700 to a tank (C Class) but I am hoping to get 220 miles between charges. I will still have a dedicated diesel ski van, just in case.... so if the Tesla doesn't work out the Berlingo will be taken next time... We have been doing multiple trips a season these last few years..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Having just done the ashford to StG drive yesterday, in near perfect traffic conditions, it still took us 12 hours door to door & we stopped 3 times, the longest being no more than 30 minutes.
Having to take longer breaks is ok but it’s going to elongate your journey
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| userscott wrote: |
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Re original point - I could not contemplate stopping every 120 miles on route to charge my car. It’d drive me crazy. Once on the continent we just bash on through stopping only to refuel or at 200 miles intermediate to swap drivers. |
It's going to be difficult for me, too, my current vehicle does 700 to a tank (C Class) but I am hoping to get 220 miles between charges. I will still have a dedicated diesel ski van, just in case.... so if the Tesla doesn't work out the Berlingo will be taken next time... We have been doing multiple trips a season these last few years.. |
220 miles, whilst maybe possible, will take longer. The cars don't charge at a constant rate - as they fill up with electrons* the charging rate drops. When 50% "full", the charging rate is (roughly) half speed. That's why most of the route calculators typically do 1h30 stints, with a 20-25 min charge in between to get you from 10% to 70% ish. Getting that last 30% of charge in will double your charge time - which might be Ok if you're stopping for a meal or shopping anyway, but otherwise plan on more shorter stops.
*yes, I know they don't fill up with electrons - the electrons that are already there are elevated to a higher energy state.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| userscott wrote: |
Has anybody had any practical experience of driving a Tesla from UK to Alps. Thinking of Tigne in December, will have a Long Range M3 replacing existing car by then.
Comfortable with getting to the Chunnel but literally clueless as to what it’s realistically like on the other side.
Anybody done it? |
I've done it 3 times in the last 6 months in my M3 (to Tux, 3 valleys and Gressoney). Very low stress. I typically charge 5 times between London and the Alps because of shorter charging times to 70-80% and increased peace of mind in not running to below 15% or so. Usually I just put the destination in and stop where the car tells me to stop. Most stops are ~20 mins - occasionally it means I have a coffee when I might not otherwise have stopped, but on the whole the rhythm really suits me. And while the self driving is generally overhyped, it *does* work brilliantly on French motorways. Not sure what the trip would be like in a non Tesla, although there do seem to be a lot more non Tesla high speed chargers in France than the UK.
It's a long day if you do it in a single hit though, think it took me about 17 hours Tux to London door to door (but sticking to the speed limit all the way and stopping for sit down lunch and dinner)
Incidentally, I simply don't believe the 120 mile cold weather range your friend quoted. I have never seen anything even vaguely approaching that kind of range drop when cold.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| turbosmurf wrote: |
| userscott wrote: |
Has anybody had any practical experience of driving a Tesla from UK to Alps. Thinking of Tigne in December, will have a Long Range M3 replacing existing car by then.
Comfortable with getting to the Chunnel but literally clueless as to what it’s realistically like on the other side.
Anybody done it? |
I've done it 3 times in the last 6 months in my M3 (to Tux, 3 valleys and Gressoney). Very low stress. I typically charge 5 times between London and the Alps because of shorter charging times to 70-80% and increased peace of mind in not running to below 15% or so. Usually I just put the destination in and stop where the car tells me to stop. Most stops are ~20 mins - occasionally it means I have a coffee when I might not otherwise have stopped, but on the whole the rhythm really suits me. And while the self driving is generally overhyped, it *does* work brilliantly on French motorways. Not sure what the trip would be like in a non Tesla, although there do seem to be a lot more non Tesla high speed chargers in France than the UK.
It's a long day if you do it in a single hit though, think it took me about 17 hours Tux to London door to door (but sticking to the speed limit all the way and stopping for sit down lunch and dinner)
Incidentally, I simply don't believe the 120 mile cold weather range your friend quoted. I have never seen anything even vaguely approaching that kind of range drop when cold. |
Are you sure the difference isn't the numbers I'm being told is regular day to day driving in the NE of Scotland winter vs. what I assume is going for all out economy? You realise I have nothing to gain by lying about this, nor does he  Even if there was another 20-30 miles on top of that range the numbers still aren't great for the distance I'd be travelling, I note you're starting form London so that's a lot more manageable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| userscott wrote: |
| Once you do the cost benefit analysis... |
I guess it makes more sense for some situations, if you're staying for a long duration, already fitting winter tyres for UK use and/or you want to carry a load of specialised ski equipment ( I always rent), but a lot of people overlook the real cost of the wear & tear and depreciation of your vehicle.
Fleet costs for running a Merc C Class over 3yrs/60k are around 65p/mile, prob more now fuel is up 40%. Manchester to Val d'Isere is 950 miles, so true cost is £1235, plus tolls of £75 each way, plus cost of Tunnel £90 each way, total £1565. I doubt a Tesla using public charging networks would come out much cheaper. Pretty sure you could get 4 flights plus car hire for less than that!
Some stay overnight each way, so hotels/extra food on top of that, then you would have to amortise the cost of the winter tyres if you weren't planning to fit them anyway.
Everyone works out the cost/benefits differently I guess, each to his own!! 
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| damanpunk wrote: |
| turbosmurf wrote: |
| userscott wrote: |
Has anybody had any practical experience of driving a Tesla from UK to Alps. Thinking of Tigne in December, will have a Long Range M3 replacing existing car by then.
Comfortable with getting to the Chunnel but literally clueless as to what it’s realistically like on the other side.
Anybody done it? |
I've done it 3 times in the last 6 months in my M3 (to Tux, 3 valleys and Gressoney). Very low stress. I typically charge 5 times between London and the Alps because of shorter charging times to 70-80% and increased peace of mind in not running to below 15% or so. Usually I just put the destination in and stop where the car tells me to stop. Most stops are ~20 mins - occasionally it means I have a coffee when I might not otherwise have stopped, but on the whole the rhythm really suits me. And while the self driving is generally overhyped, it *does* work brilliantly on French motorways. Not sure what the trip would be like in a non Tesla, although there do seem to be a lot more non Tesla high speed chargers in France than the UK.
It's a long day if you do it in a single hit though, think it took me about 17 hours Tux to London door to door (but sticking to the speed limit all the way and stopping for sit down lunch and dinner)
Incidentally, I simply don't believe the 120 mile cold weather range your friend quoted. I have never seen anything even vaguely approaching that kind of range drop when cold. |
Are you sure the difference isn't the numbers I'm being told is regular day to day driving in the NE of Scotland winter vs. what I assume is going for all out economy? You realise I have nothing to gain by lying about this, nor does he Even if there was another 20-30 miles on top of that range the numbers still aren't great for the distance I'd be travelling, I note you're starting form London so that's a lot more manageable. |
If it’s day to day driving short distances with lots of cold starts it may be true. But then it’s a misleading reply to the question the OP was asking.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That's fair then to be honest. To add some balance I asked another guy I used to work with what his does... 200-225 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 11-07-22 17:06; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@luigi, But you're paying the lease whether you do 0 or 10k a year, so that's pretty misleading The only 'per mile' costs are fuel and any excess mileage charge.
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| damanpunk wrote: |
| turbosmurf wrote: |
[
Incidentally, I simply don't believe the 120 mile cold weather range your friend quoted. I have never seen anything even vaguely approaching that kind of range drop when cold. |
Are you sure the difference isn't the numbers I'm being told is regular day to day driving in the NE of Scotland winter vs. what I assume is going for all out economy? You realise I have nothing to gain by lying about this, nor does he Even if there was another 20-30 miles on top of that range the numbers still aren't great for the distance I'd be travelling, I note you're starting form London so that's a lot more manageable. |
Wasn't suggesting anyone was lying, just that I don't believe it's correct. I've really not noticed much range drop in cold weather, and a bit of internet research suggests the same.
It could be that the range drops that much when the battery is really cold, but the car heats the battery in use, so unless on lots of very short trips in very cold weather I don't think the range drop is anything even close to that.
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You know it makes sense.
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| luigi wrote: |
| userscott wrote: |
| Once you do the cost benefit analysis... |
I guess it makes more sense for some situations, if you're staying for a long duration, already fitting winter tyres for UK use and/or you want to carry a load of specialised ski equipment ( I always rent), but a lot of people overlook the real cost of the wear & tear and depreciation of your vehicle.
Fleet costs for running a Merc C Class over 3yrs/60k are around 65p/mile, prob more now fuel is up 40%. Manchester to Val d'Isere is 950 miles, so true cost is £1235, plus tolls of £75 each way, plus cost of Tunnel £90 each way, total £1565. I doubt a Tesla using public charging networks would come out much cheaper. Pretty sure you could get 4 flights plus car hire for less than that!
Some stay overnight each way, so hotels/extra food on top of that, then you would have to amortise the cost of the winter tyres if you weren't planning to fit them anyway.
Everyone works out the cost/benefits differently I guess, each to his own!! |
I agree with you, but most of those who are convinced that driving to the alps is better than flying are also completely convinced that their car is free and the only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. Of course that is patently nonsense. Especially the "lease is already paid" argument. But that is how many see it, and why many insist it is so cheap to drive to the alps. I live in Scotland, it is definitely more expensive to drive than fly and hire a car at the other end. And would definitely take much, much longer to drive than fly. I like the idea of driving, but it just does not stack up for us.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| MorningGory wrote: |
| @luigi, But you're paying the lease whether you do 0 or 10k a year, so that's pretty misleading The only 'per mile' costs are fuel and any excess mileage charge. |
Do you have an unlimited mileage lease? If so please let me know who it is with as we live in rural Scotland and are a high milage family so that would be great for us! Oh and can you let me know how you get free brakes/tyres/oil and other maintenance effected by milage?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Especially the "lease is already paid" argument. But that is how many see it, and why many insist it is so cheap to drive to the alps. I live in Scotland, it is definitely more expensive to drive than fly and hire a car at the other end. And would definitely take much, much longer to drive than fly. I like the idea of driving, but it just does not stack up for us. |
To be fair, the lease is paid whether you take the car or not...
I priced up our trip to the Grand Massif a month or so ago. Flying was £225 each with Easyjet from Manchester to Geneva, with 1 ski bag. Parking for the week was another £60, diesel to drive there and back, £36, transfer to GM, £400 (!). Which works out at £473 each ((2 of us).
Driving in our Peugeot diesel estate (which despite a quoted figure of 80mpg has averaged 57mpg over the last 6000 miles), assuming £2/l and £190 for the tunnel (I've already paid it!), plus hotel in Troyes on way out and Brauy on way back at £50night works out at £375 each. And we may have another passenger, which brings it down further. And then there's the benefit of not having to be at the airport 3 hours before a 7am flight, huge queues, crowds and the possibility of cancelled flights...
We have a Tesla as well, which if we'd taken that (it's leased on 12k/year through the company) would have (according to ABRP, tempt set to 2C, with headwind and rain) taken 4 charge stops. This tallies with what we got through the winter, which is a cold weather range of about 250-60 miles - it's a long-range. Not taking it though, because tyres are included in the lease and they're specced as Michelin Pilot Sport, which aren't winter; the Peugeot has Bridgestone Weather Control.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Driving definitely cheaper for me than flying and hiring a car. Enterprise are quoting £3,200 for a seven-seater during half term from Geneva. That's more than my car is worth!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| zikomo wrote: |
| I agree with you, but most of those who are convinced that driving to the alps is better than flying are also completely convinced that their car is free and the only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. Of course that is patently nonsense. Especially the "lease is already paid" argument. But that is how many see it, and why many insist it is so cheap to drive to the alps. |
But you're missing a really important point to help satisfy your argument. The lease IS already paid. The only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. If I chose to fly, Lex will not refund me 7 days of lease charges for my car.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| userscott wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| I agree with you, but most of those who are convinced that driving to the alps is better than flying are also completely convinced that their car is free and the only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. Of course that is patently nonsense. Especially the "lease is already paid" argument. But that is how many see it, and why many insist it is so cheap to drive to the alps. |
But you're missing a really important point to help satisfy your argument. The lease IS already paid. The only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. If I chose to fly, Lex will not refund me 7 days of lease charges for my car. |
Ignoring the fact that most people have a time and milage defined lease, and most people choose a milage that is as close as possible to what they normally drive to minimise the cost of the lease.. Recognising that there is an inherent cost/mile for the car. I am sure you would pay more for a low milage second hand car than for a high milage one. The same works for ex-lease cars. Plus maintenance is milage related. You can fool yourself all you like but every mile you travel in your car costs money, and it is a cost per mile. HMRC is not know for generosity but does recognise this reality. I get that many people prefer to drive and that makes sense to me. I also get that most who do drive see it as a smaller upfront cost - and I can (sort of) understand that perception. But you pay for the usage of the car either way, and that is spread across the milage that you do. Leasing is not any different to buying in that regard.
I buy cars brand new for cash and then drive them until they are unreliable. Should I therefore regard every mile I use the car for as "free" as I have already paid for the car? For sure the total cost per mile is a great deal less than for those who are leasing, but the logic seems to be lost for those who lease. Especially company car drivers - I was one in the past because I could not afford the car I wanted at the time not because I was fooling myself that my motoring was cheaper that way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| I buy cars brand new for cash and then drive them until they are unreliable. Should I therefore regard every mile I use the car for as "free" as I have already paid for the car? For sure the total cost per mile is a great deal less than for those who are leasing, but the logic seems to be lost for those who lease. Especially company car drivers - I was one in the past because I could not afford the car I wanted at the time not because I was fooling myself that my motoring was cheaper that way. |
But even when I apply a 9 day overlay for the lease period of the car to a 9 day trip to France, it's still cheaper than flying.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| userscott wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| I agree with you, but most of those who are convinced that driving to the alps is better than flying are also completely convinced that their car is free and the only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. Of course that is patently nonsense. Especially the "lease is already paid" argument. But that is how many see it, and why many insist it is so cheap to drive to the alps. |
But you're missing a really important point to help satisfy your argument. The lease IS already paid. The only costs are fuel/tunnel/tolls. If I chose to fly, Lex will not refund me 7 days of lease charges for my car. |
Ignoring the fact that most people have a time and milage defined lease, and most people choose a milage that is as close as possible to what they normally drive to minimise the cost of the lease.. Recognising that there is an inherent cost/mile for the car. I am sure you would pay more for a low milage second hand car than for a high milage one. The same works for ex-lease cars. Plus maintenance is milage related. You can fool yourself all you like but every mile you travel in your car costs money, and it is a cost per mile. HMRC is not know for generosity but does recognise this reality. I get that many people prefer to drive and that makes sense to me. I also get that most who do drive see it as a smaller upfront cost - and I can (sort of) understand that perception. But you pay for the usage of the car either way, and that is spread across the milage that you do. Leasing is not any different to buying in that regard.
I buy cars brand new for cash and then drive them until they are unreliable. Should I therefore regard every mile I use the car for as "free" as I have already paid for the car? For sure the total cost per mile is a great deal less than for those who are leasing, but the logic seems to be lost for those who lease. Especially company car drivers - I was one in the past because I could not afford the car I wanted at the time not because I was fooling myself that my motoring was cheaper that way. |
It's a fair question re the cost of mileage in a car you own outright. Our octavia scout (bought new in cash) is now 7 years old with 70k on it. Motorway miles are pretty gentle on a 2l diesel engine which can purr along at low revs at 80 mph. There is certainly some tyre wear but I the genuine costs of a km on French autoroutes (beyond tolls and diesel) is very small. Do you feel differently?
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Everyone has their own economic model for their own vehicle with various levels of denial incorporated. Personally I'm probably closer to @jedster in age of vehicle, mileage/depn and the practical consequences of 1000km of gentle motorway cruising on a robust diesel engine. But I'm not daft enough to claim that most of the time for anything less than 3 people that car is a more cost effective way of getting to the alps. Hassle wise given the nadir air travel has slipped to, certainly likely preferable. Obviously airfares around school holiday weeks somewhat distort the calculation.
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| Quote: |
Obviously airfares around school holiday weeks somewhat distort the calculation.
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not to mention hire care rates and transfer costs!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Obviously airfares around school holiday weeks somewhat distort the calculation.
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not to mention hire care rates and transfer costs! |
And what about the 4 sets of ski carriage that is now mandatory for any SnowHeads compliant Alpine ski holiday: piste, all mountain, powder and touring setup!
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I have a company car, so I don't even think about depreciation, just the tax I pay, which I have to anyway. Driving is way cheaper for me. Me & my 3 mates are going out to Grand Massif in January and it will cost us just over £400 a head to be there and skiing, just add food and drink. We all have our own skis so those costs don't include hire, there's no way we could get close to that flying.
Mind you, it will be the last trip in my diesel company car, as it is being replaced by an EV (Mustang Mach-E), so the following one will be interesting (hence my interest in all these EV threads)
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FAQ
