 Poster: A snowHead
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I've just been keeping an eye on last minute deals for ski holidays.
It seems to me that the package holiday operators use some pretty opaque tactics when it comes to last minute deals. Rather than showing something as unbookable on the website, they encourage us to call instead, which currently can mean wasting an hour just to be told that there's nothing available.
At the same time, tour operators seem to create artificial scarcity, only releasing a few holidays in dribs and drabs on their website, creating the feeling that there are very few left, I presume to make us buy now rather than watch and wait where we'd be in a stronger position to negotiate?
Are there any snowHeads with experience of working on strategy/marketing for a tour operator who'd like to comment on this? How does the last minute market/business model work, and how can we, as snowHeads (ahem, some less active than others...) use this knowledge to get the best deals?
Similarly, are there any snowHeads who've had experience of leaving things to the last minute, and not being able to get the package holiday that they wanted? I know that DIY is easily done last minute (apart from transfers this year!) so I'm more interested in packages please.
If you'd like to remain anonymous when answering, feel free to message me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
are there any snowHeads who've had experience of leaving things to the last minute, and not being able to get the package holiday that they wanted?
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I guess if there's a "package holiday you want" you have to book it at full price. The whole point of last minute booking is to be flexible. Maybe go to a resort that had never occurred to you......
Nice to hear from you, @Kramer 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Kramer, I booked exactly a week ago for a departure tomorrow and found that the only TO whose offers were genuine, and really were bookable online was Crystal. Inghams booking site frequently sent me up cul de sacs, and both Neilson and Igluski weren't bookable online at all, but front paged various anazing offers that, after waiting in phone for silly amounts of time, turned out to be non-existent.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@moffatross, that would be false advertising and illegal. If it really happens why not follow through with the ASA?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@moffatross, that’s exactly what I found too. However since I’ve booked with Crystal, more holidays have since appeared on their site. I’m wondering whether this was because of cancellations or a deliberate strategy on their part. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Kramer, basically it is all mind games. You can't know what they know - there might be more holidays available or not. Do what @pam w says, decide what you want to pay and the sort of place you are happy to go to, and when something appears book it. But you have to be flexible, if you hold out for precisely what you want you are likely to end up spending a week in the rainy UK.
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Firstly, I would call Iglu a travel agent, not a tour operator - of the many, many holidays they sell each year, only a few are holidays that they put together themselves - their ATOL is for less than 7,500 per annum and most of that is during the summer months. However, many, many skiers who book through Iglu will say “Igluski” when they are asked which tour operator they booked.
Secondly, once upon a time, I worked for Crystal. In those days they had the concept of streamed seats which meant that seats on a flight were split between guaranteed properties (i.e. where a non-refundable payment had been made up front) and non-guaranteed. Each week there was an availability meeting where sales were reviewed and decisions were made about changing the streaming mix. Allocating more seats to non-guaranteed properties allowed the system to sell more non-guaranteed holidays.
I am not saying that there were no opaque deals but I am saying that the over-riding, all important consideration was to put customers into beds (or onto flight seats) that had been paid for in advance as profitably as possible.
As someone once said on TV, when you book last-minute, you are booking what others don't want.
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@Nemisis, what’s the difference between a “guaranteed” and “non-guaranteed” property?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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“Guaranteed” is also known as “committed”.
With a self-catering property the contract can state what % of the total payment is paid when, usually reaching 100% before arrival. With a B&B or property with Half Board a typical contract would have been for non-refundable/non-cancellable (hence “guaranteed”) stage payments before the guest arrives and the property would then bill the TO for the relevant number of Bed-nights at so much per to cover meals, tourist-tax, etc.
This enables the accommodation to agree a contract knowing that the fixed costs will be covered in advance (whether or not the TO sells the room/apartment), billing afterwards for the variables included in the contract. The downside for the accommodation is that he guarantees to keep that accommodation for the TO’s clients and if he accepts a booking from elsewhere into a guaranteed room which the TO has a client for he is overbooking (the penalties for which could well be defined in the contract).
The upsides for the TO are that the accommodation/meals cost will be much lower than an ordinary contract, and the release date could well be zero, meaning that a client can book (on-line?) Friday evening to fly Saturday early morning. Clearly the TO should set his selling price high enough to cover the cost of financing the advance payments and, across the season, recuperating the cost of any unsold rooms (the occupancy factor). As an aside, these unsold last-minutes rooms and the need to get some contribution are what generate the late deals.
It is a similar situation with charter flights or trains – the TO pays a small deposit to reserve the aircraft movement and the balance a matter of days before the departure – again “guaranteed” in the sense that the TO knows how many seats there will be because nobody else will be able to sell them. Sometimes airport taxes + APD will be paid before departure, sometimes post departure. Scheduled/Low Cost airlines will also require full payment in advance but the individual contracts will say how much/when and the cut-off period/release.
There are differing levels of guarantee going as high as “fully guaranteed”.
And, as Covid has shown us, there will always be force-majeure get-out clauses.
A caveat: I said earlier “once upon a time” which was 15 years ago. Details will probably have changed since then!
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So, I think, what you’re suggesting, is that week by week, the Tour Operator is in contact with the airlines, coach companies and hotels, and as they sell out of packages, they negotiate to make more available, if possible?
And that, because of the increased risk of an empty room/seat the closer we get to the departure date, the economics of the fixed costs vs variable costs tends to mean that prices drop.
So that means, week by week there’s likely to be different availability right up until departure?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Kramer, if I understand @Nemisis right, that only applies to the "guaranteed" accommodation where the TO has to pay something even if not occupied. However if they have places on the flight they may be able to source "non-guaranteed" accommodation for you at whatever the local business charges - so when you follow the TO website instruction to phone for last-minute deals you may find they are not bargains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@j b, @Kramer,
The "non-guaranteed" accommodation, at the bargain end of the scale and last-minute, would be allocations held with a short release date but the selling price would be pitched a bit lower than normal if the TO needs to shift flight seats. I say “short release date” – I worked with some properties in the USA that, until just before arrival day, were happy with the concept of “sell and report” (i.e. sell as many rooms as you like and tell us every time you make a sale!).
The cynic in me says that the instruction to “call us for deals” is so that the call centre can sell up to a more expensive offer!
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some good deals on Crystal today.
We just booked for Austria 19th March, deal was too good to resist.
Normally I'd be booking independently, but the pricing is irresistible, so I'll suffer the indignity of using a T.O.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Nemisis wrote: |
@j b, @Kramer,
The "non-guaranteed" accommodation, at the bargain end of the scale and last-minute, would be allocations held with a short release date but the selling price would be pitched a bit lower than normal if the TO needs to shift flight seats. I say “short release date” – I worked with some properties in the USA that, until just before arrival day, were happy with the concept of “sell and report” (i.e. sell as many rooms as you like and tell us every time you make a sale!).
The cynic in me says that the instruction to “call us for deals” is so that the call centre can sell up to a more expensive offer! |
Indeed, or persuade you to go to something that they're trying to shift.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sunweb have anything for you? I have had numerous trips through them and good to deal with.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| king key wrote: |
| Sunweb have anything for you? I have had numerous trips through them and good to deal with. |
Thanks, we got something sorted last weekend. But more appeared this Friday, which was a big annoying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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