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My thoughts on UCPA off piste course

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

I remember signing up for Skiers Lodge in La Grave and finding myself massively out of my depth. It made me realise how much better I needed to get but fortunately I found that inspiring rather than intimidating. Although it was quite a tough week, I think it set me on a different track from what might have been the case if I’d gone for a more gentle introduction.


I had a similar realisation halfway down the Rama. It is virtually impossible to learn without getting in over your head at some point. Mainly because it is impossible to learn anything new without making mistakes. The important thing is what you take from those mistakes and ensuring that the mistakes occur in an environment where they don't have serious consequences. Like the Rama.

Having now seen the OP's Warren video, my advice remains: get better on piste and then start doing gentle off piste with the same instructors. If you like skiing with Warren then go to Verbier and ski itinerary runs until it no longer freaks you out. Then book some more tuition.

You are not going to sort out fundamental technique issues - like balance on your skis - while you are skiing off piste. You need to have the basics to a higher level before moving on.
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@gorilla, nothing like the Rama for a bit of self-discovery Laughing
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moffatross wrote:
horizon wrote:
I am 100% with @BobinCH on this. AndreSilva is very courageous for not having bailed out, stronger technically than I would expect for someone with his experience

There's no doubt about that. It was a proper test of courage for Andre.


+1
Well done. Took guts!

But he was good enough to get down it (black run skier) and there was a very low probability of him falling.

He needed better fitness and jump turns though. I wonder if the instructor took them down some blacks as warm-up/work on technique?

Bet if he did it twice more, he’d cane it the third time Very Happy
Am I right, Andre?
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Arno wrote:
@gorilla, nothing like the Rama for a bit of self-discovery Laughing


Hey Arno, wasn't it in a variant of Rama where we got that 2m ice "wall" that Pierre was shouting at us to get over faster? That was a bit of a surprise... (the ice wall I mean, not Pierre shouting!)
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Arno wrote:
@gorilla, nothing like the Rama for a bit of self-discovery Laughing


Any pics?
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AndreSilva wrote:

I'll definitely try off-piste again, but I'll wait 2 or 3 seasons to improve on-piste things like my balance and stance, doing some jumps and moguls before I go back to the off-piste.


You make it sound like you've been put off a bit.

I read the UCPA description with some interest. There seem to be 4 days of full on skiing over 23 hours.They expect you to be something like advanced intermediate on piste - about the usual level for going off piste with some competence.

From the link you sent:-

I note that for the final two days this is on the programme:
Quote:
Réalisation d'itinéraires de plus grande ampleur en fonction du niveau technique du groupe et des conditions du moment. Perfectionnement et adaptation technique aux différents terrains (ski en forêt, pente plus raide,... )


which would seem to correspond to the video you sent or indeed something more serious. I assume all was lift served.

The first couple of days seem to be focused on technique on more open terrain, did you do this? Not having a good idea of what you covered and when it is hard to make a comment.

The video you sent is what we would call a Couloir école. A learner couloir, if you like. It is not too narrow but you can't always turn where you want but it is not too steep and from what I can see the chalky snow isn't icy and gives good grip. Not an easy pitch by any means. For some people having it scralped like it is would make it easier to ski but obviously with 40cm of powder you could just ski straight down with linked turns. The main issue I can see is you don't have your weight forward when you turn so your skis run away across the slope, I would have expected this to have been addressed in the first couple of days with the instructor.

I guess it depends what you want to achieve? Good powder skiing? That relies on powder snow which may not be easy to find in Chamonix, especially this year. Toute neige, tout terrain - well there should have been a lot of cut snow, off piste bumps etc out in the sun where the snow is soft. Spring skiing? again should have been good this year. It sounds like the course was a bit of technique then looking for some more adventurous terrain whereas you needed more work on technique.
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Kudos - but wtf?! Who enjoys skiing down that sort of stuff? ... hoping for some snow before Gnarliibug so we are not reduced to 'testing' ourselves on this type of terrain
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horizon wrote:
Arno wrote:
@gorilla, nothing like the Rama for a bit of self-discovery Laughing


Hey Arno, wasn't it in a variant of Rama where we got that 2m ice "wall" that Pierre was shouting at us to get over faster? That was a bit of a surprise... (the ice wall I mean, not Pierre shouting!)


Do you mean the Olympique? That’s a variation of Rama we have done but don’t remember an ice wall there. I think you’re thinking of some super secret walking track he took us down which ended up near Les Freaux?
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Introductory?! Lethal more like. As others have said definitely try the SoPB. Had similarly terrifying experiences in the past, but the instructors on SoPB are a joy.
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@AndreSilva, Best thing I ever did for learning how to ski off piste was go out to North America. Everything inside the resort boundary is avalanche controlled so you can ski off piste at your own pace just dipping into what looks good and gradually upping the difficulty. While you can (and should) keep getting better on piste, off piste is a little different at some point you really need to practice it to get good.

As for the video, it doesn't look particularly beginner friendly (hard pack snow, tight, steep). Clearly you were struggling. The instructor probably shouldn't have taken you there. Not trying to defend the instructor, but i've seen people that ski flawlessly on piste, but struggle off piste as they have the ability but not the psychology (start to panic when things get steep or narrow). For those people the best thing can be pushing them a bit to the point where they get comfortable on steeper stuff, although it's a fine line between pushing them out their comfort zone and completely destroying their confidence. The instructor definitely didn't get that balance right here.
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@davidof,
Good post.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
zzz wrote:
@davidof,
Good post.


+1
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Rogerdodger wrote:
This thread and discussion is fascinating. The breadth of opinion on the "what constitutes introductory" is bizarre!
Where is the harm in skiing easy angled terrain to build confidence, develope some technique and possibly iron-out a few faults.
I think Ali Ross.....many years ago talked about "straight running" in powder to gain feel and confidence.
There's plenty of time to ski the steeps, why not assemble a tool rack in a safe area in order to enjoy those steeps sometime in the future.


I agree somewhat. However, there is probably some pressure on the guides too. I suspect any off piste course at Chamonix - even "introductory" tends to attract more "adventurous" skiers that want to be pushed and experience "extreme" terrain. If I'd signed up and I felt we were just doing boring routes because one member of the group wasn't up to the same level I'd probably be quite annoyed. Not defending the guide, but it would be interesting to hear the view of others in the group.

I used to take people out at kicking horse (not as a guide, just show people around) and many wanted to ski stuff way out their ability. They would mostly side slip down it with no real style and a few falls. I'm sure most have experienced similar of guys that want to ski whatever route is considered hardest at a particular resort. There are a lot of people (yes mainly men Laughing ) that get a kick out of the fact they "skied" (survived is probably a more accurate term) a tough line. So while OP understandably found it hell, the rest of the group while a similar ability may have loved it.
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^^ very valid points

What was level of other skiers in this group? Were they able for where you were brought?

I have definitely experienced in e.g. esf class 4 or piste to powder group 2 or 3, if someone signs up for a particular level and they're not up to it, but everyone else in the group is, then rather than having an argument with the client after the first run, the instructor/guide will drive on, do things appropriate to everyone else's level, and then it becomes much more mutual decision for the lagging client to leave the group

Of course more complicated if you have booked a package including instruction and there isn't a lower group you can be easily put down to
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Also in terms of making groups, someone pointed out above, French and Swedish can be quite understated about their abilities. Add to that group Irish. And Norwegians! (my rule of thumb is if you're in a group of Norwegians, you're probably in wrong group!)
British, Americans, and I'm sorry but Brazilians also definitely seem to overstate their ability

I don't know how UCPA operates. Who are instructors? Are they esf or their own? Does someone vet your ability over phone when you book (like British companies are usually very adept at) or are you supposed to just know that UCPA cham is simply not for beginners?
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davidof wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:

I'll definitely try off-piste again, but I'll wait 2 or 3 seasons to improve on-piste things like my balance and stance, doing some jumps and moguls before I go back to the off-piste.

...
The first couple of days seem to be focused on technique on more open terrain, did you do this? Not having a good idea of what you covered and when it is hard to make a comment.
...

Definitely not Laughing
On the first day, after 2h we were already in the middle of a quite narrow path through the trees with massive bumps at the end.
My biggest problem with how the course went is that at no point she was checking our technique and trying to fix it, 90% of the time she had the "follow me" mentality and was in front of the group instead of waiting to see how each one can handle it.

Good to mention again: No one in my group had any off-piste experience, although most of them were much better on piste than I am.
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peanuthead wrote:
Also in terms of making groups, someone pointed out above, French and Swedish can be quite understated about their abilities. Add to that group Irish. And Norwegians! (my rule of thumb is if you're in a group of Norwegians, you're probably in wrong group!)
British, Americans, and I'm sorry but Brazilians also definitely seem to overstate their ability

I don't know how UCPA operates. Who are instructors? Are they esf or their own? Does someone vet your ability over phone when you book (like British companies are usually very adept at) or are you supposed to just know that UCPA cham is simply not for beginners?

I don't think I overstated my ability, I was 100% aware that I have zero experience with off-piste, that's why I booked an introductory course, otherwise, I would go for an advanced one.
If you check the level on the course page I mentioned on the first post, this is what is says:

Off-piste skiing - Discovery
Technical level - Confirmed (you evolve with ease on all the slopes of the ski area by piloting your skis, even if you are less comfortable when the terrain is more rugged - moguls, ice, powder) You have at least a 'Confirmed' level in skiing or snowboarding. You want to discover off-piste. This course will introduce you to the use of safety equipment, learn techniques to ski more easily in all types of snow and all terrains and make your first outings. A qualified instructor in a group made up of a maximum of 10 participants.


That is exactly where I am at: I am comfortable on all on-piste slopes, can't blame me for believing in the description wink
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peanuthead wrote:
^^ very valid points

What was level of other skiers in this group? Were they able for where you were brought?
...


Nobody had ever tried off-piste, it was the first time for all 4 of us.
One guy was very experienced(20 years on-piste experience), the other two were 5 and 7 year experience, all on-piste only.
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AL9000 wrote:
moffatross wrote:
horizon wrote:
I am 100% with @BobinCH on this. AndreSilva is very courageous for not having bailed out, stronger technically than I would expect for someone with his experience

There's no doubt about that. It was a proper test of courage for Andre.


+1
Well done. Took guts!

But he was good enough to get down it (black run skier) and there was a very low probability of him falling.

He needed better fitness and jump turns though. I wonder if the instructor took them down some blacks as warm-up/work on technique?

Bet if he did it twice more, he’d cane it the third time Very Happy
Am I right, Andre?

Maybe Laughing
Thanks for the kind words guys, I felt very proud that I was able to go down and not freeze in the middle of it, but as some guys said it here: it was more of a survival skiing than fun skiing snowHead
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@AndreSilva, don’t sweat it. Sounds like you got a hopeless instructor. Can’t imagine anyone less suitable for leading an intro to off piste group. I would recommend you provide UCPA some feedback about the lack of instruction and terrain choices (send them the vid) - might save the next group of victims!
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AndreSilva wrote:

Good to mention again: No one in my group had any off-piste experience, although most of them were much better on piste than I am.

Did they cope any better with that gully than you did? Were there any comments about the suitability of it, given the title of the course?
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Old Fartbag wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:

Good to mention again: No one in my group had any off-piste experience, although most of them were much better on piste than I am.

Did they cope any better with that gully than you did? Were there any comments about the suitability of it, given the title of the course?

All of them fell at least once going down that one.
They enjoyed it and were not as scared as I was. On the last day, we all had the same feeling when week was over: it was nice but more challenging than we expected, even for the experienced guy.
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AndreSilva wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:

Good to mention again: No one in my group had any off-piste experience, although most of them were much better on piste than I am.

Did they cope any better with that gully than you did? Were there any comments about the suitability of it, given the title of the course?

All of them fell at least once going down that one.
They enjoyed it and were not as scared as I was. On the last day, we all had the same feeling when week was over: it was nice but more challenging than we expected, even for the experienced guy.

I am coming up to my 50 year anniversary for skiing in Dec this year. Shocked I am reasonably technically proficient for a holiday skier. I have learned techniques for skiing steep narrow gullies, in particular Jump turns/Anticipation/Banking etc - but if I hadn't skied for a year or two, let alone done this kind of Off Piste for a few years....I would certainly want a warm-up, a tune-up and would like to ease into that level of difficulty.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 16-02-22 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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@Old Fartbag, You’d be in a rifugio having hot choccy with me and few other snowHead
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AL9000 wrote:
@Old Fartbag, You’d be in a rifugio having hot choccy with me and few other snowHead

You might have a point....though sometimes I get the mad notion that I'm 40 years younger than my age would suggest. Denial is a strong emotion.
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@AndreSilva, I plan for an easy off-piste course with an instructor in St Foy. Skied there a lot with some small steps in off piste too. Brilliant place to learn. Nor sure of would work this year but would gladly go next year (by car or train from Brussels). Join if you fancy. I have more piste experience and just a bit of offpiste. Funny that I know how to ski off piste, doing it right is the difficult part Smile
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AL9000 wrote:
zzz wrote:
@davidof,
Good post.


+1


thank-you
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AndreSilva wrote:
davidof wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:

I'll definitely try off-piste again, but I'll wait 2 or 3 seasons to improve on-piste things like my balance and stance, doing some jumps and moguls before I go back to the off-piste.

...
The first couple of days seem to be focused on technique on more open terrain, did you do this? Not having a good idea of what you covered and when it is hard to make a comment.
...

Definitely not Laughing
On the first day, after 2h we were already in the middle of a quite narrow path through the trees with massive bumps at the end.


Ok, I'm not an alpine instructor but would have spent the first day in variable terrain off piste - probably starting on sunny east facing slopes then tackling more variable terrain on north sector slopes and seeing how people coped technique wise. To learn to ski steep terrain (I'm not sure that is even in the purview of your intro course) you don't start with some gnarly couloir but you find a steep slope (>40 degrees) with no consequences if you fall with easy, transformed spring snow.

Skiing narrow, icy paths is part and parcel of many off piste routes, even stuff that has a moderate rating, the end of the VB is like this, so not be be neglected but you don't need to start on a narrow, icy path with serious consequences if you get it wrong. You need to be able to ski a very narrow track down a slope - very short radius turns. You could mark this out with cones. Snow ploughing and side slipping are also useful skills as you demonstrated in your video.

I probably wouldn't do an introductory off piste course in Chamonix (for the reasons cited above, basically expectations) but I'm sure the terrain is there for it and then some easy off piste adventures afterwards - even the Vallée Blanche variant would be suitable for this although I doubt a UCPA instructor would be qualified. Maybe someone who knows the area better could comment? I know some of the stuff accessed on skins out of the Grand Montets is pretty easy, Chardonnet etc but I don't know the OP much.
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I often see UCPA in action here in Serre Chevalier and I have seen some less than professional antics.

The few local ESF Guide/Instructors I know really look down on the UCPA instructors as second rate, saying that they are a big accident about to happen etc etc, but think that's more of an elitist view held by the ESF.

I groan when they show up, as with a group of 12 in tow they can quickly trash an off-piste sector.

I suspect as has already been alluded to that Chamonix probably has a better standard of instructor than here, though going by that video I'm not too sure.

What we often find ridiculous is that they will take their groups into some pretty serious forest terrain which we have, and you'll come across a fair number hopelessly out of their depth / lost skis etc, though that is a speciality of mine Laughing and you almost feel, which I think is the law in France, that you should come to their aid if someone is in difficulty? @davidof, could probably confirm that?

FWIW it's very hard to teach off-piste, it's more down to time spent on the mountain, expanding your experience of what it can throw at you.

I'm still learning and I've been doing it a long time*, and I spend the winter out in the mountains skiing as soon as we get snow.

Even guides will very rarely advise you on your technique, though the "don't fall here" line always instils confidence, as well as "speed is your friend".

Skiing a gnarly corridor can be a totally different experience depending on the snow-pack (as people have said), some of the fatalities in La Grave have been when people ski some of the couloirs when it's hardpack boilerplate.

The ability to ski all types of snow can be far more technical than slide-slipping, and I still have to throw a downhill kick turn in every now and again to get out of trouble.

Windblown crust can be nigh on impossible to ski though I sort of perversely enjoy the challenge rolling eyes

Did the instructor even see/ask if you or others in your group could do a downhill kickturn in tricky terrain, because they are not easy to master as my OH knows?

@AndreSilva, but a 100% for effort and resilience for doing that and persevering!

*my first La Grave skiers lodge was in 1997


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 16-02-22 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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peanuthead wrote:
British, Americans, and I'm sorry but Brazilians also definitely seem to overstate their ability

That may be why the UK site is more explicit in mentioning the ability to carve, etc...

peanuthead wrote:
I don't know how UCPA operates. Who are instructors? Are they esf or their own?

They hire their own qualified instructors for on-piste work, and qualified mountain guides off-piste - though for an introductory off-piste course it might be either.

peanuthead wrote:
Does someone vet your ability over phone when you book (like British companies are usually very adept at)

Phone??? It's mostly online, so no; it's up to the person booking to verify the requirements. However it's normal for them to do a few test runs during the first morning, meet with other groups at lunch and swap a few people around.

davidof wrote:
even the Vallée Blanche variant would be suitable for this although I doubt a UCPA instructor would be qualified.

As above, they use qualified mountain guides off-piste - I've skied several routes down the Vallée Blanche with them over the years, on Alpine and touring skis.

AndreSilva wrote:
90% of the time she had the "follow me" mentality and was in front of the group instead of waiting to see how each one can handle it.

That's normal when the skiing is easy; when it's tricky I'd expect them to be watching from below / part-way (as indeed your instructor was in the video).

AndreSilva wrote:
at no point she was checking our technique and trying to fix it

I'd expect some coaching tips along the way, and ahead of tacking something like the gully, but not ski-school style 'lessons'.
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Jehu wrote:
That gully looks much too narrow for an introduction to off-piste. Instructors should not expect us to learn how to link turns by threatening us with rocks.
+1
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AndreSilva wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
moffatross wrote:
horizon wrote:
I am 100% with @BobinCH on this. AndreSilva is very courageous for not having bailed out, stronger technically than I would expect for someone with his experience

There's no doubt about that. It was a proper test of courage for Andre.


+1
Well done. Took guts!

But he was good enough to get down it (black run skier) and there was a very low probability of him falling.

He needed better fitness and jump turns though. I wonder if the instructor took them down some blacks as warm-up/work on technique?

Bet if he did it twice more, he’d cane it the third time Very Happy
Am I right, Andre?

Maybe Laughing
Thanks for the kind words guys, I felt very proud that I was able to go down and not freeze in the middle of it, but as some guys said it here: it was more of a survival skiing than fun skiing snowHead


Contrary to what others have said, I don't think your leader was particularly out of order. The gully she chose for you wasn't particularly steep, and I suspect she knew that, despite what some snowheads eyes perceived, there was nothing in the fall line for you to hurt yourself on. As davidof said, it was a learner's gully. I think that the error she made (not a small one) was that of timing, and perhaps just an hour earlier or later, the gully would have been full of sunlight, less threatening, easier to anticipate, and offer you softer snow that didn't throw you around quite so much.

I look like a bag of spanners when I ski, part of the problem starting in the sport at 30 years old I suppose, and I'm in absolute awe of some of my skiing buddies here in Scotland who can straight-line a 50 degree, less than a ski's width chute for 5 seconds or more before it opens up to safer ground, or who have the confidence to traverse narrow, you fall, you will die ledges to access never been skied before, no turning back lines. Every one of them started skiing when they were young children though. But as for children, pushing boundaries, making mistakes, and learning from them is how adults can progress too, if they've the fitness and stamina to overcome the failings in their technique. It's a long time now since I've fallen while skiing but every time I did fall (and I know about ragdolling first-hand Laughing ), it was a learning experience that had me working out where the fault was. On the day, you discovered that you can get down terrain (albeit like Bambi on ice) that you'd never have considered before, and I think that the leader took you there because she knew there was very little scope for serious harm. Next time though, make sure you go somewhere sunny Cool
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moffatross wrote:
I don't think your leader was particularly out of order. The gully she chose for you wasn't particularly steep, and I suspect she knew that, despite what some snowheads eyes perceived, there was nothing in the fall line for you to hurt yourself on. As davidof said, it was a learner's gully.

+1
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I suspect the reason you had to get new pants was to fit your balls in- massive
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Weathercam wrote:


What we often find ridiculous is that they will take their groups into some pretty serious forest terrain which we have, and you'll come across a fair number hopelessly out of their depth / lost skis etc, though that is a speciality of mine Laughing and you almost feel, which I think is the law in France, that you should come to their aid if someone is in difficulty? @davidof, could probably confirm that?


In "danger" not "difficulty" although the line between the two may be quite fine.

I think there is a place for improving technique. I see far too many "randobeards" around here who could really do with a week doing technique on a lift served piste/off-piste course and my Cham friends tell me it is no better in the mecca of skiing. Practice makes permanent. Still by and large, apart from trashing slopes, they are not doing any real harm.

Given the professions of guide and instructor are different you don't want a guide for this. A guide is there to get you safely around the mountain and choose appropriate terrain with some tips at most, they don't have the training to analyze and instruct ski technique (even if some are very good at this). Similarly ski instructors don't have the baggage to negotiate the whole mountain with clients even if some like @offpisteskiing are extremely competent at this.
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I probably wouldn't do an introductory off piste course in Chamonix (for the reasons cited above, basically expectations) but I'm sure the terrain is there for it and then some easy off piste adventures afterwards - even the Vallée Blanche variant would be suitable for this although I doubt a UCPA instructor would be qualified. Maybe someone who knows the area better could comment? I know some of the stuff accessed on skins out of the Grand Montets is pretty easy, Chardonnet etc but I don't know the OP much.


There is a lot of suitable beginner terrain. I did an intro course there with Chamex years ago, which was pitched very well. Lots of time lapping the Bochard/Herse and top lifts at the GM. Bit of time at le Tour. Gros Rognon variant of the VB towards the end of the week. Bit of couloir skiing on the GM, which was harder than the couloir in the video.
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gorilla wrote:



There is a lot of suitable beginner terrain. I did an intro course there with Chamex years ago, which was pitched very well. Lots of time lapping the Bochard/Herse and top lifts at the GM. Bit of time at le Tour. Gros Rognon variant of the VB towards the end of the week. Bit of couloir skiing on the GM, which was harder than the couloir in the video.


I was going to mention Chamex. I think their off piste course looks really good. With a week's airbnb you'd be spending around 1100 euros out of peak season excl. food and travel.
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@davidof, it was run by Richard Mansfield, who was excellent. Not sure who they are using now and I think things have changed a lot since Russell Brice handed over to new management. They'd still be my go to for Chamonix based ski instruction off piste.
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fireice wrote:
peanuthead wrote:
British, Americans, and I'm sorry but Brazilians also definitely seem to overstate their ability

That may be why the UK site is more explicit in mentioning the ability to carve, etc...

peanuthead wrote:
I don't know how UCPA operates. Who are instructors? Are they esf or their own?

They hire their own qualified instructors for on-piste work, and qualified mountain guides off-piste - though for an introductory off-piste course it might be either.

peanuthead wrote:
Does someone vet your ability over phone when you book (like British companies are usually very adept at)

Phone??? It's mostly online, so no; it's up to the person booking to verify the requirements. However it's normal for them to do a few test runs during the first morning, meet with other groups at lunch and swap a few people around.

davidof wrote:
even the Vallée Blanche variant would be suitable for this although I doubt a UCPA instructor would be qualified.

As above, they use qualified mountain guides off-piste - I've skied several routes down the Vallée Blanche with them over the years, on Alpine and touring skis.

AndreSilva wrote:
90% of the time she had the "follow me" mentality and was in front of the group instead of waiting to see how each one can handle it.

That's normal when the skiing is easy; when it's tricky I'd expect them to be watching from below / part-way (as indeed your instructor was in the video).

AndreSilva wrote:
at no point she was checking our technique and trying to fix it

I'd expect some coaching tips along the way, and ahead of tacking something like the gully, but not ski-school style 'lessons'.


These points are my experience of many ucpa trips. The requirement is that you must be at least an advanced skier/ boarder (a real one not in your head one) to go off piste with ucpa. There are instructors who are also high mountain guides and live and breathe the mountains. But there are also youngsters who are in it for ... The chicas!!
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I've just signed up for an 'Intro to Off-Piste and Ski Touring' course with UCPA happening this January.

Does anyone know if standard ski clothing will suffice for this type of course, or do I need specialized backcountry ski attire?

Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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