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My thoughts on UCPA off piste course

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
philhitch wrote:
I think you got the 'really, really good' feedback because you go the instructor out of the poo by getting down in one piece.

I'll second that. No disrespect to you Andre but she is having a fckn laugh with that comment and was thinking the same as philhitch.

In my younger days I would overstretch myself with sh*t like this sometimes. But that was young exhuberance rather than paid for guidance!

In fairness I think there has been a lack of snow over the last few weeks and I can imagine that couloir being great fun if conditions were a bit better.

Do keep going off piste as much as you can - it's really the only way to learn. And if you've done that and still want more you will be just fine.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Strong work re not dying or getting injured. I would go back and spend a week getting your technique dialled in on piste and then use the same instructor or ski school to gradually ramp up the difficulty off piste. You want to be skiing a black run with linked short turns in control rather than just getting down it before you make the next step on. Also look at resorts which offer itinerary runs where you can get used to skiing ungroomed snow without dealing with the same sorts of alpine hazards as exist off piste.

The footage suggests that you are both tired and pretty gripped and those things are creating a feedback loop. You can see that you are very backseated when turning, even from the gopro footage, which is natural when things are steep and frightening. As you've realised, there is no value in returning to that sort of terrain as it is too far beyond your current skill set to teach you anything.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

No disrespect to you Andre but she is having a fckn laugh with that comment


+1
Maybe she was chatting you up?! You missed your chance there Andre.
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AndreSilva wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
@AndreSilva, Do you feel that you got value for money on your coaching week with UPCA?

Hmmm... difficult to say.
I was expecting a training course but it was just a guiding. My instructor didn't teach me any new skills or drills, they already expected me to have it.
As I said in the first post, I have a technique good enough to handle anything on piste, I go to black slopes quite often and very rarely fall, but it was not enough for this.

1.000 euros for 6 nights(5 days skiing) + equipment + meals is a pretty good deal in my opinion, but I really expected more from the instructor, not just to show me which way to go and wait for me to get there.


I really don't mean to spam this thread or sell you anything but as a comparison we run a similar course led by an ex BASI trainer, 4* accommodation, avalanche safety equipment and training with a group size of 6 for £1k. I would think you would actually learn something and have an enjoyable week for an extra few hundred Euros... There are other companies who do similar courses, Snoworks, Warren Smith Academy who I would suggest would offer you a better experience.

I didn't mention it earlier but from the video it would appear that not all of the group had backpacks on. The avi risk was probably very low but did the course include avi safety equipment and training ?
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Congratulations on your perseverance, and for posting the video Smile

Having skied many UCPA off-piste weeks, my tips would be to:

    - Check carefully the level of ski expertise they require - that particular week is marked 'Confirmé' (Experienced - you can ski with ease on all slopes...). After only 35 days on snow, that was very ambitious! I'd been on skis for way longer than that before my first.
    - Generally their off-piste weeks involve coaching on how to adapt and improve your existing good technique to off-piste conditions, rather than a ski school 'course'
    - Choose a level that you're comfortable with for your first UCPA week, and get an opinion at the end of that about what you should sign up to the next time.
    - If you go during peak season, they will probably have a wider range of on-piste and off-piste courses, with the ability to switch you to a more appropriate skiing level if necessary

More generally, I'd suggest building up your experience on-piste, plus skiing the 'immediate off-piste' along the piste edge.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 14-02-22 14:52; edited 2 times in total
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@AndreSilva, A coaching week is a very good idea, and worth every penny, for your future off piste fun.
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I did the introduction to off piste course in Serre Chevalier years ago, my level of skiing and overall experience was similar to the OP I think. Accepting that it's a week of guiding and not instruction (which I knew before I went), I do love the UCPA and have been back another 4 times for the advanced course over the years. Serre Chevalier, Val D'isere, Les Contamines, Argentiere, Val Thorens - my experience has always been consistent that it's guiding and not instruction and the guide has pushed the group depending on the overall level of the group.

Absolutely their approach isn't for everyone, but it worked for me and I've enjoyed every trip.
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I do think making the transition from an “I can get down everything on piste” to a competent off pister is a tricky thing. I remember signing up for Skiers Lodge in La Grave and finding myself massively out of my depth. It made me realise how much better I needed to get but fortunately I found that inspiring rather than intimidating. Although it was quite a tough week, I think it set me on a different track from what might have been the case if I’d gone for a more gentle introduction.
Wouldn’t necessarily be the case for everyone though Madeye-Smiley
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fireice wrote:
Congratulations on your perseverance, and for posting the video Smile

Having skied many UCPA off-piste weeks, my tips would be to:

    - Check carefully the level of ski expertise they require - that particular week is marked 'Confirmé' (Experienced - you can ski with ease on all slopes...). After only 35 days on snow, that was very ambitious! I'd been on skis for way longer than that before my first.
    - Generally their off-piste weeks involve coaching on how to adapt and improve your existing good technique to off-piste conditions, rather than a ski school 'course'
    - Choose a level that you're comfortable with for your first UCPA week, and get an opinion at the end of that about what you should sign up to the next time.
    - If you go during peak season, they will probably have a wider range of on-piste and off-piste courses, with the ability to switch you to a more appropriate skiing level if necessary

More generally, I'd suggest building up your experience on-piste, plus skiing the 'immediate off-piste' along the piste edge.


The description says something like “you’re comfortable on all pistes, have dabbled on the sides of the piste, come and learn to ski off piste with a qualified instructor”

And then the instructor, presumably knowing his level, takes them down a STEEP, narrow, hard packed couloir, littered with some nice big rocks for good measure!

Utter madness. Just totally stupid. He was brave to keep going. What would she have done if he’d totally frozen in the crux??? Honestly that instructor shouldn’t be taking groups anywhere IMO, let alone off piste.
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For context OP, do you have a video of you skiing on piste so we can see what level the instructor thought you were at?

Agreed that does not look introductory!
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It’s not that bad.
Snow looked fine.
He got a nice edge hold and was side-slipping nicely. Just his turns needed a bit of work.

Don’t know why he fell at the end though.
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AL9000 wrote:
It’s not that bad.
Snow looked fine.
He got a nice edge hold and was side-slipping nicely. Just his turns needed a bit of work.

Don’t know why he fell at the end though.


Physically and mentally exhausted from being taken into terrain way beyond his capability level
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I like to think I am a competent piste skier, been skiing for 15 yrs and have a BASI 1.
I am starting to develop my off piste skills (mainly because, L2 “variables” and bumps….). If I had been asked to ski that pitch there would have been snot, tears and a temper tantrum and it probably would have set my development back SEASONS. Especially given it was badged “intro to…”

Bad show instructor / guide.
Kudos to OP for surviving.
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You know it makes sense.
Whoa. Nothing to it but to do it, I guess.

I did learn jump turns at a pretty young age, just messing around with my friends. Have served me well many times.

I do plan on getting into off-piste in a couple of years but more in a controlled ski rando way, i.e. skin up a fairly well defined trail, have a good lunch and a sun bathe, then ski back down to my car!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@AndreSilva, I'd echo what many others have said about getting your on-piste technique dialled, to help off piste. You say you manage to get down anything on-piste but not necessarily with solid technique. Off-piste, all the extra variables will rapidly find your flaws!
If you can get some private lessons, tell your instructor that you are beginning to dabble off piste and want to make sure your technique will hold up. They can then focus on aspects that will help you most (probably not achieving huge edge angles Laughing ).

If holidays etc allow, the PSB is a really good way to get into off-piste: do the clinics (2× 2.5 hours with a top-notch instructor, in the first half of the week) then follow this up with an easy guided day or two (where the same great instructors will introduce you to suitable terrain). It's like 3 or 4 days of coaching for peanuts.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Having done an Introduction to Off Piste Week (Marmalade Meribel) which was pitched at a less hard core level than you experienced (they split into two groups at the end of the first day) I now make the point of booking one or two days one to one or one to two off piste to maintain my skills or perhaps improve them … for me this seems a good approach.

To my inexperienced eye, off piste can mean different things for different folks, and I am not sure that mastering gnarly couloirs is what I would be looking for until at a higher and and probably never attainable level.

Perhaps the most important thing when considering an Introduction to Off Piste course would be to ascertain at what level it is pitched before signing up.
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Worth mentioning that the UCPA's UK site sets out the standard expected in English:

    Advanced
    You can ski confidently on any kind of piste in the ski area, but some conditions are still challenging (moguls, ice, powder). You can carve effectively on groomed pistes, however your technique is not so consistent on steep or uneven terrain during challenging snow conditions. You can adjust your technique and mix short and long radius turns when required. You spend time in the side country practicing off piste technique.

    Off Piste 1
    You are at least 'advanced' level on piste and are confident to try new things. You should have a broad skill set of skiing techniques and are good in a wide range of conditions and different terrains.
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capability wrote:
For context OP, do you have a video of you skiing on piste so we can see what level the instructor thought you were at?

Agreed that does not look introductory!

Question from a non-native English speaker: What does OP mean ??? Laughing

Almost all of my videos are in my gopro, so you can't really see my technique.
I found one that it is is a bad quality last year in a Warren Smith summer course, that's when I learned carving, still need to work A LOT on my angles(damn kid was blocking me at the beginning):

http://youtube.com/v/8nJVSjhJ31M
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OP = “original poster”, meaning you Andre
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KNoceros wrote:
OP = “original poster”, meaning you Andre

Learning something every day Laughing
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AndreSilva wrote:
Learning something every day Laughing


Not carving, by the looks of it Toofy Grin
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AL9000 wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:
Learning something every day Laughing


Not carving, by the looks of it Toofy Grin

Not bad for 23 ski days of experience IMO.
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fireice wrote:
Worth mentioning that the UCPA's UK site sets out the standard expected in English:[list]

(you)... are confident to try new things.


The OP certainly got the opportunity to try new things... (and new underpants too, I should imagine)
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red 27 wrote:
fireice wrote:
Worth mentioning that the UCPA's UK site sets out the standard expected in English:[list]

(you)... are confident to try new things.


The OP certainly got the opportunity to try new things... (and new underpants too, I should imagine)

Fun fact: I had to buy new ski pants, I ripped mine in one of the runs Laughing
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AndreSilva wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
AndreSilva wrote:
Learning something every day Laughing


Not carving, by the looks of it Toofy Grin

Not bad for 23 ski days of experience IMO.


Little Angel Keep at it….


http://youtube.com/v/dYhJ_Xt5SUY
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DavidYacht wrote:
... gnarly couloirs ...

That wasn't a gnarly couloir. At no point was it too narrow to send your planks sideways or turn them, it had no ice or rocks in the fall line, and the chalky snow was always grippy. It looked a bit shite though, overskied and rather gloomy. It also looked pretty disappointing as a route choice, and if it's representative of what Chamonix leaders/instructors offer their clients in mid-winter conditions, it's raspberry time.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 14-02-22 20:35; edited 1 time in total
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AndreSilva wrote:

Fun fact: I had to buy new ski pants, I ripped mine in one of the runs Laughing


I ripped mine just watching Toofy Grin snowHead
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@red 27, Laughing
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AndreSilva wrote:
Not bad for 23 ski days of experience IMO.

I'd agree. Firmly in 'intermediate' territory, but nothing wrong with that - keep up the positive attitude and add additional mileage Smile
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Booking off piste courses can be tricky, you never know till you're there is this a "fast" group or a "slow" group. I've been in intermediate groups that did some very serious skiing, and I was no way the best skiier there, and advanced groups which were disappointingly sedate

It ends up depending not just on individual levels, but other factors, e.g physical fitness, able to pick themselves up after fall, attitude.

However it's always a problem if your level is below or above the rest of group

Next time think about booking somewhere that does several different levels at same time, e.g. snoworks, they can put you into level most appropriate to you.

I predict by time 2-3 years have passed you'll be posting about experience booking into intermediate group, but a disappointment because everyone else way below your level!
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 Poster: A snowHead
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This thread and discussion is fascinating. The breadth of opinion on the "what constitutes introductory" is bizarre!
Where is the harm in skiing easy angled terrain to build confidence, develope some technique and possibly iron-out a few faults.
I think Ali Ross.....many years ago talked about "straight running" in powder to gain feel and confidence.
There's plenty of time to ski the steeps, why not assemble a tool rack in a safe area in order to enjoy those steeps sometime in the future.
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We did two UCPA off piste courses (while considerably over-age). The first, in Agentierre we had a 60 year old instructor, we were in the bottom of three off piste groups, and it was a genuine introductory week, challenging but doable as first proper off piste, though we had considerably more piste experience and skills than the OP. The second was in Flaine, supposedly the same standard, with a younger, but still very well qualified instructor. It was all much more gung-ho, and it was a good job we had done the other course first. We skied lots of terrain similar to the stuff the OP described, and seemed as if we were sking flat out all day. Very challenging, but we learned a lot, and had a great, if exhausting time.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 14-02-22 22:22; edited 1 time in total
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moffatross wrote:
DavidYacht wrote:
... gnarly couloirs ...

That wasn't a gnarly couloir.

It's all relative. I'd say for most punters (me included) the term would fit.

moffatross wrote:
At no point was it too narrow to send your planks sideways or turn them

Is that your definition of gnarly? For a pro freerider maybe but for us amateurs straightlining more than a few metres would rule anything out. Do you straightline couloirs regularly?

moffatross wrote:
it had no ice or rocks in the fall line

You mean apart from the massive lump of rock at the bottom.

moffatross wrote:
and the chalky snow was always grippy.

I'd grant you that.

moffatross wrote:
It looked a bit shite though, overskied and rather gloomy.

I'd grant you that also.

I think if I skied that after my first 35 days skiing I reckon I would have looked like the OP. After 350 (I've no idea how correct that is but it's ballpark) I'd like to think I could reasonably smoothly turn and side slip my way down. But I would see it as a bit of a challenge.
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@Layne, there definitely wasn't a massive lump of rock in the fall line, and no, the definition of gnarly isn't just having a chute through which turning, or bleeding speed is impossible. I don't actually want to ski that sort of gully because I'm too old, and I'm a coward, and I like to ski slowly and under control. But certainly a gully which needs straight-lining could be defined as gnarly, no ? A gully in which a fall would result in an instant rag-doll might also be described as gnarly, and the one in the video definitely wasn't that. Perhaps a gully in which an abseil was required would be described as gnarly too, but that one clearly wasn't either. But yeah, you're certainly right that gnarly is a relative thing. One person's gnarly is another's warm-up.

P.S. There's a ski run at Glencoe (Flypaper) that does actually have a massive lump of rock directly in the fall line, and its pitch is usually over 40 degrees. A fall anywhere on the upper run almost always results in an instant rag-doll, but there are rarely any injuries from bodies impacting the massive lump of rock because they mostly bounce right over it.
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Similar experience here with Chamonix UCPA, I booked the regular ski instruction course (mostly piste, I presumed since there is another off piste specific) and put myself to the “advanced” level. The first day after the skills “test” they thought I should join “expert” level instead. At the time I had zero experience off piste but like the OP get comfortable skiing any piste and very keen to improve on it. As I joined the new group the instructor set off, immediately into trees, narrow toboggan style track… and then into the soft snow.. the group were off piste oriented and the whole week was 75% off piste focused. I also considered giving up and rejoining a lower level, mentally and physically I was done after every day. At least I believe instructor was more sensible and didn’t take us this sort of off piste, so hats off for braving it. The lessons were good it just wasn’t what I signed up for.

The last day the off piste was closer to piste, harder snow and bumpy and I managed a lot better.

My wife had an off piste lesson with Evolution2 in Chamonix that was shambles, basically guided her to off piste in Le grand Montet, tricky conditions (for her), she had zero experience or training. She hated it and out put her off off piste… I don’t know if some instructors in Chamonix think because it’s Cham got to be hardcore..
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moffatross wrote:
@Layne, there definitely wasn't a massive lump of rock in the fall line


Have you been drinking?




Nice gentle slope for an intro Toofy Grin


There’s bucket loads of off piste to do in Cham without the need to expose students to confidence shattering, steep, tight, scalped couloirs that can only be side-stepped/jump turned down!
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A few observations from someone who has skied a lot with UCPA:

If this was three weeks ago, I was in Argentiere at the same time where they were not running any on piste groups at all and the centre was only half full. Not sure if this was the same in Chamonix but obviously reduced numbers makes it difficult to move people around and harmonise the groups, especially if you’re already in the lowest group. I guess this may have been the reason you found yourself in a group too advanced for your level. Obviously not ideal but not really typical of the UCPA experience in a normal year.

The French and Swedish at UCPA tend to underplay their skiing ability meaning the standard is often quite good, even in the less advanced off piste groups.

The standard in popular off piste centres like Argentiere, Chamonix and Val d’Isere is generally a lot higher than others. Beginner off piste in say La Plagne or Flaine would likely be a more mellow week.

Avalanche equipment instruction has always been very robust in my experience. The minimum has always been a basic transceiver search on day one, followed by a simulated multi victim search as a group later in the week.
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BobinCH wrote:

There’s bucket loads of off piste to do in Cham without the need to expose students to confidence shattering, steep, tight, scalped couloirs that can only be side-stepped/jump turned down!

Yes, it was properly rubbish, and I'd hope that there was too. As I said upthread, if a leader/instructor used that gully on a course I joined there, it would paint me a shite picture of Chamonix, and leave me scratching my head about what all the Chamonix hyperbole was for.

On the fall line thing, from those pictures and the video, it looked to me that if you lobbed something in at the top of the gully, or anywhere on the centreline on the way down, it would fall on the right hand side of the lump of rock at the bottom. But my initial observation wasn't about what was at the bottom, but rather that there weren't any lumps of rock or ice falls in the skier's line, just overskied, but grippy, chalky snow.
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I am 100% with @BobinCH on this. AndreSilva is very courageous for not having bailed out, stronger technically than I would expect for someone with his experience, and lucky not to have had a bad fall / injury. This is way too exposed and difficult for the third day of an intro to offpiste course. Someone said the snow was chalky, yes this helps as long as you dig in your edges and haven't fallen, but if you do fall you can accelerate quite quickly.

Plus, even if you don't fall and don't have an injury, I don't think you're learning any useful technical skills, probably destroying some.

I know GoPros can often give a false sense of perspective, but more often than not they make things look flatter than they are, not steeper.

I've noticed that Arno mentioned above that he benefitted from being stretched in one of his early offpiste courses. Having skied with him quite a lot, I know he's more courageous than I am.
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horizon wrote:
I am 100% with @BobinCH on this. AndreSilva is very courageous for not having bailed out, stronger technically than I would expect for someone with his experience

There's no doubt about that. It was a proper test of courage for Andre.
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