 Poster: A snowHead
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Concerning things like grade of steel used in edges, robustness of top sheet material etc. The reason I ask is that after 2 weeks of skiing this year (including me twice accidentally trying to drive the tip of my poles through my skis with full strength) my new Atomic skis look pretty much as new, whereas after 2 weeks my previous Volkls looked years old and very ragged. Now I appreciate this was not a controlled experiment but it raises the question and I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@greengriff, I always use my skis for about 5-7 years. With high end Völkl they have always retained their spring and edges have always held. I made one excursion to Atomic and found the ski was like a wet sponge in it's third season. Dreadful. Never bothered to look at the condition of the tops!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Steilhang, That's very interesting thank you. I didn't think about the durability of the core material. My Volkls still ski fine, but have needed a base grind. Again I appreciate that it's impossible to compare unless I took the same skis to the same places and did the same runs at the same time. Do you (or anybody else) know about the grade of steel different makers use for edges? Or are they are much the same?
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All ski edges are made from very similar material (about 48 rockwell hardness) any harder and they'd be prone to shattering at the thickness needed for edging material. It's why they don't use stainless steel which starts at about 70ish.
You can get some thicker material but not much in it between most brands.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 2-02-22 18:05; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are definitely some differences, though I don't know specifically about the metals. Some skis are made of proper wood and feel really sturdy, or carbon fibre and/or titanal which also lasts well. Others are made out of sawdust and chewing gum. @spyderjon will know, as he's probably drilled most brands many times.
Top sheet materials vary massively as well, longevity-wise, though this doesn't seem to be particularly related to price or prestige. My Atomics have a textured top sheet with metal bumpers that looks as good as the day they were bought. My mate's Countdowns have disintegrated around the front (granted, he's not the most careful, but they haven't lasted very well).
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AIUI there are very few suppliers of things like edges etc. There used to be big differences in durability when a lot of mass market skis had foam cores. Nowaways its probably about attention to detail in manufacture and quality of materials and the design spec and I wouldn't say any brand has a universally good reputation - a pricepoint skis is still made to a pricepoint and a factory that turns out shoddy tunes and uneven bases probably still does it no matter what brand it is manufacturing subject to differing QC procedures.
Someone like @spyderjon who drills a lot of skis and sees a lot of damaged stuff can probably give a more rounded view.
PS top sheets don't really matter for performance at all - chipped and dinged is the badge of a life well lived if not the hallmark of high resale value.
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A lot of it will come down to the ski itself and where it sits in the manufacturers line up. The more you pay the better the build will be much like anything in life.
I've had head skis as an intermediate which didnt last very long but at the same time have had some of the more expensive "WC" style ones which are bomb proof.
my current volkl kendo's are solid and very well made.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
All ski edges are made from very similar material (about 48 rockwell hardness) any harder and they'd be prone to shattering at the thickness needed for edging material. It's why they don't use stainless steel which starts at about 70ish.
You can get some thicker material but not much in it between most brands. |
I think Burton use (or used to use) stainless on their Custom X. Never tried it so have no idea if it offers any advantage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| Others are made out of sawdust and chewing gum.. |
 ...if that particular combo gives good performance though...
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@greengriff, There is. And I don’t want the lawyers to be sharpening their pencils…
But here goes.
When all manufacture is in-house, and has been for a long time, then you tend to get Nice Things. I like Capita boards. I like German-made Volkls. I like Chamonix-made Dynastars (remember those?). I have heard very good things about Whitedot but do not own any.
Some VERY famous brands have offshored their production at times, and the whole process of driving the production remotely through specifications etc (rather than watching how the skis are as they enter finishing) and running QC remotely can lead to some weak lines (read horror stories). And then some companies try to cut corners or bring in new designers…
And then there are the stalwarts, who actually make skis for other companies as well as produce their own, which all benefit from massive accumulation of knowledge and expertise. Atomic and Elan fall into this category I think.
There are then items of weirdness. I have some budget skis from the early 2000s which my daughter tends to use. These have the least promising construction of any ski in our garage. They are delaminating, have a bizarre highly pronounced camber, the top sheets are marked to hell, and they look awful. But they ski really well and just keep going, bless them. Amusingly, this was said about them in a consumer review…
‘…However, in stone-hard artisans, the ski is not as rigid and subdued as a "racing carver". When it is steep and hard, the skid must be driven with a certain angle and force to avoid losing the track. At high speed, it feels a bit wary and tends to go more well than say to answer the edges…’
Ah…maybe they should go in the recycling after all….
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@greengriff, I doubt it - Its too hard and would be horrible to work an edge onto with so little of it to work with - it'd be like trying to sharpen a fully pein-hardened edge.
quick one on this - titanal is an aluminium alloy, not dissimilar to your coke can, NOT anything to do with titanium.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@valais2, Very interesting post, thank you!
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
@greengriff, I doubt it - Its too hard and would be horrible to work an edge onto with so little of it to work with - it'd be like trying to sharpen a fully pein-hardened edge.
quick one on this - titanal is an aluminium alloy, not dissimilar to your coke can, NOT anything to do with titanium. |
And they make it sound so exotic...
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You know it makes sense.
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@greengriff, you're making up your own jokes now...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
@greengriff, I doubt it - Its too hard and would be horrible to work an edge onto with so little of it to work with - it'd be like trying to sharpen a fully pein-hardened edge.
quick one on this - titanal is an aluminium alloy, not dissimilar to your coke can, NOT anything to do with titanium. |
Yep, Titanal is effectively a brand naming "Titan" & "Aluminium" used to enhance promotion. It's logical normal identification would be "Duralumin" in engineering workshop parlance. Most closely familiar use in aircraft skin and long term durability structures, so highly competent in it's own right but not Titanium as the marketing alludes to.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Stainless is not generally used for critical sharpness as it doesn't hold such a keen edge as a carbon steel alternative. Hence many kitchen knives (the most used a sought after) are raised carbon steel, which also have to be oiled to protect them from corrosion when not in use.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ski3 wrote: |
| Stainless is not generally used for critical sharpness as it doesn't hold such a keen edge as a carbon steel alternative. Hence many kitchen knives (the most used a sought after) are raised carbon steel, which also have to be oiled to protect them from corrosion when not in use. |
What about wear resistance? I presumed manufacturers didn't use stainless because it would be harder on tools (and therefore more expensive to produce). Interesting that it might lack performance too.
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Mostly the abrasives are carborundum (silicone carbide) will cut any steel within reason and without much in the the way of wear.
Never found a ski edge that I can't cut with a metal file though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, …indeed…I have some 30 year old genuine Sabatier (not the licensed ones) - made in the Isere valley and Thiers and boy are they razor sharp. I get bloody annoyed when they get left in a basin of water after being used, though. The family are now getting quite good at NOT DOING THAT!!! … calming down now….
Another weird exception are the brilliant Zwilling knives (German) boy are their stainless knives great.
I have now hidden my favourite Zwilling knife since I had an earful when I bought it (….not another ++++ knife….) only to find it being used for everything due to its fantastic balance, fine edge and stiffness. I use it on birthdays.
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What's the origin of Decathlon's Wedze ski brand? A mainstream European ski manufacturer? Or knocked out by a factory in the Far East?
No idea what they ski like, but have seen a few pairs on the slopes.
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@mountainaddict, ...ANSWER...both.
Skis have to include country of manufacture. Some state:
Made in Austria (probably Atomic then)
Made in Slovenia (probably Elan then)
Made in France (probably Rossignol then)
Made in China (no one knows)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@valais2, yes there's different characteristics sought in the metallurgical specification to push something closer to it's performance edge. Manipulation of the chromium and nickel content to "tune" the properties. More stainless generally gives less long term elasticity.
Stainless in stress environments is difficult in many guises (not many stainless springs in general use) whereas titanium (mtb use) has no real problem, with weight advantage over steel)
It's possible that the Zwilling will ultimately be effected by corrosion in the wrong conditions in order to enhance it's sharpening properties, but for example won't have to continuously flex as in a ski edge, making it unsuitable for that application.
It starts to build a picture of the various choices the manufacturer has in determining their finished product.
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Cheers valais2.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@mountainaddict, ...ANSWER...both.
Skis have to include country of manufacture. Some state:
Made in Austria (probably Atomic then)
Made in Slovenia (probably Elan then)
Made in France (probably Rossignol then)
Made in China (no one knows) |
I think quite a lot of Rossi empire skis are made in Spanish factory
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@ski3, goodness me nice to hear some sense about titanal...
There’s this in Ski magazine:
‘... is an aluminum alloy with titanium, vanadium, and several other alloying elements that give it exceptionally high yield strength,” says K2’s lead ski engineer Jed Yeiser. “It is used extensively in skis (and aircraft, for that matter) due to its high bulk modulus and extremely high yield strength compared to other aluminum alloys. The material has better inherent damping properties than many composites, especially carbon fiber, Kevlar, and, to a lesser extent, ...’
Nope. Not as I understand it.
From ‘unofficial networks’:
‘....The short answer is Titanal is a metal that is about 85% aluminum with smaller amounts of zinc, magnesium, and copper. Despite the deceiving name, titanium is not among the list of periodic ingredients. Titanal is produced by a single company called AMAG or Austria Metall AG. It should come at no surprise the Austrians are behind this. Austrian and German companies like Volkl, Fisher, and Blizzard are known for producing some of the stiffest and most powerful skis in the world. This is especially true in the world of racing.
“AMAG’s high-strength TITANAL and special alloys stand for unique properties that are ideally suited to the needs of the sports industry. In particular, the unsurpassed combination of best formability, anodizing and gluing excels in high-grade products such as sprockets, skis, hiking and ski poles as well as various mountaineering articles that must reliably withstand the strongest loads.” – AMAG...’
From Carvers.IT
‘...Titanal® is produced by an Austrian company known as AMAG Rolling. This company has a sports division with a long history of providing high strength aluminum alloys for recreational manufacturing. AMAG Rolling describes Titanal® as follows : “ Titanal® is a high strength, age hardenable aluminum-wrought-alloy”. Contrary to what many people may believe, Titanal® is not titanium and in fact does not contain any titanium. The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium. Knowing the chemical composition allows for a comparison of this alloy to other familiar aluminum alloys...’.
And finally, from ‘AL - the Journal of Aluminium’ (trade journal):
‘...Key to ski performance is the amount of bending and flexing the skis can do at the same time that they maintain a stiffness that prevents cracking or bending. One solution is a material called Titanal, made by the Austrian firm AMAG. Titanal is a very hard, aerospace-grade aluminium alloy that was specifically created for skiing, but despite the trade name, Titanal has no actual titanium in it...’
Rather like the Mars Bar...which has no red planetary dust in it at all .... or does it?.....
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You know it makes sense.
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I've learnt a bit here - the fact that there is the expression "Ti" on my skis does not represent the standard chemical abbreviation. No matter, I bought them after trying them out for what I was looking for.
I assume Decathlon outsource manufacturing, but I believe they have their own technical and test staff so presumably they are made to their own specifications wherever the factory is. As someone said, it ought to be on the label.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@valais2, origins here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duralumin as most are derived from this type and understanding.
My background originally in 1st tier aerospace research and development, in which you can't work on any material without knowing it's composition, specification, date, ageing, welding potential, batch identification etc.
Materials through a roller mill effectively "forged" too, in that the grain structure is refined throughout the rolling process such that granularity is more aligned as in tree fiber growth. This adding raised integrity to product if the finished surface is included as it left rolling.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@valais2, ok so it's a slightly misleading name. But notwithstanding the misleading aspect, it sounds like it's the dog's dangleys... right?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| j b wrote: |
I've learnt a bit here - the fact that there is the expression "Ti" on my skis does not represent the standard chemical abbreviation. No matter, I bought them after trying them out for what I was looking for.
I assume Decathlon outsource manufacturing, but I believe they have their own technical and test staff so presumably they are made to their own specifications wherever the factory is. As someone said, it ought to be on the label. |
Certainly it's not a secondary choice, an extraordinarily high performance metal, and more than a match for viable alternatives, just not with the perceived marketing "snap" the titanium illusion forwards.
Skin of Concorde for one notable example, is of this ilk. Mostly, nothing comes close.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So does my ski jacket, which has "Titanium" emblazoned across the chest, not incorporate an exotic metal?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, thanks for the information you have given here ... very thoughtful...I defer very much to your background in materials science and engineering - definitely an interest for me but not a professional one - I suddenly realised that people might think I was criticising Titanal and AMAG - not at all - they are an extraordinary company and the material is entirely fit for purpose.
I am fascinated by alloying and the qualities which it brings to metals - I have a deep interest in the bike industry and am extremely picky about frame material, fabrication techniques and tube design. Ovalised 853...mmm...nice.
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@BoardieK, 
I saw a plane the other day. It had Virgin on the side.
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I think it is mainly materials - full wood core and titanal plus the construction method. Basically their skis are made like other brands' real race skis. I suspect they are no more durable than other race skis just race skis are more durable than recreational ones.
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| j b wrote: |
I assume Decathlon outsource manufacturing, but I believe they have their own technical and test staff so presumably they are made to their own specifications wherever the factory is. As someone said, it ought to be on the label. |
I remember reading that the Decathlon gear is actually designed just down the hill in their Passy design store & tested on the StG slopes. I’m not sure on the manufacture.
Does decathlon/wezz not sponsor the French Olympic snowboard team?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
I think it is mainly materials - full wood core and titanal plus the construction method. Basically their skis are made like other brands' real race skis. I suspect they are no more durable than other race skis just race skis are more durable than recreational ones. |
Mrs t_m bought a pair for teaching a few years back. Previously we had favoured Atomics. She subsequently bought another pair purely for fun skiing. I bought my first pair last season, and I have to say they're like nothing else. Expensive, yes, but if you ski a lot they’re well worth the outlay. Some mornings on the cable car out of our village probably 50% of skis are Stöcklis.
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Never read reviews.
Never even consider All Mountain skis.
Never, ever, buy Salomon skis. Ever.
Always try loads of skis before you buy and base your decisions from this.
Great question.
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FAQ
