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Carbon footprint for a self drive ski holiday

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Mr.Egg, you can. But you need to use the word "net". And the target is to be net nil. This doesn't mean no carbon emissions ever get produced.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Haggis_Trap, you made the assertion, not me. Onus on you to back it up, if called. You just kept deflecting and then getting abusive. I am not surprised. You have form. rolling eyes

Back to the topic… electricity to run the lifts is only part of the carbon cost of an alpine report. Add to it, energy to collect & move water for ski-making, slope grooming (summer and winter), build, maintain, & heat the resort buildings, staff travel, transportation, & sustenance, build & maintain the lifts, etc, etc. I have not seen anything like that quantified.

Finally, a reality check. If you live within (say), 1000km of your intended destination, then driving is probably an option. Using a train probably expands that circle somewhat, but only if you and your destination are conveniently located to a train route. For everybody else, little option but to fly. In that case, if you believe the carbon footprint from flying is not acceptable, then ski holidays are out for you.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@ulmerhutte, depends where you go. Most of France's electricity comes from nuclear (different conversation), so lifts and snow making have a low carbon footprint. Piste bashers, wood fires, etc will be the worst culprits there.

Not sure your logic regarding distance from the train station stacks up. If you're going to fly, presumably most people don't live in the airport, so will need to get there by some form of transport. They could chose to use this transport to go to the their nearest train station.

I'm lucky enough to have a train station in my village so I managed (last weekend) to go all the way from my house to the alps using entirely train travel apart from the last 15 miles which were by taxi.
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ulmerhutte wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, you made the assertion, not me. Onus on you to back it up, if called. You just kept deflecting and then getting abusive. I am not surprised. You have form. rolling eyes


Uhhhmmm : the assertion you subsequently questioned in a 2nd post (... that travel produces majority of CO2 from a ski holiday) was correct.

ulmerhutte wrote:
Back to the topic… electricity to run the lifts is only part of the carbon cost of an alpine report. Add to it, energy to collect & move water for ski-making, slope grooming (summer and winter), build, maintain, & heat the resort buildings, staff travel, transportation, & sustenance, build & maintain the lifts, etc, etc. I have not seen anything like that quantified.


If travel to resort produces 70-80% of emissions from a ski holiday (see previous link) then surely that is the place to start reducing emissions ?

ulmerhutte wrote:
Finally, a reality check. If you live within (say), 1000km of your intended destination, then driving is probably an option. Using a train probably expands that circle somewhat, but only if you and your destination are conveniently located to a train route. For everybody else, little option but to fly. In that case, if you believe the carbon footprint from flying is not acceptable, then ski holidays are out for you.


Correct - becoming greener is not necessarily convenient or easy.
Society has some difficult choices to make.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Haggis_Trap, so very true…

Correct - becoming greener is not necessarily convenient or easy.
Society has some difficult choices to make.

‘I have a right to ski’…

Do I? What if the impact of what I do affects others - both alive now and alive in the future?
We value politicians who ‘have a dream’ - this gave us the NHS, civil rights…

I definitely am changing my behaviour…cycling more, taking responsibility for the hidden impact of my lifestyle - have already changed the house we live in and the way we heat it. And focussing more on mountain biking than skiing…I am looking more at what I can do from my back door than travelling hundreds of miles to do it.

400kg of CO2 to drive to the Alps? 400kg!
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valais2 wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, so very true…

Correct - becoming greener is not necessarily convenient or easy.
Society has some difficult choices to make.

‘I have a right to ski’…

Do I? What if the impact of what I do affects others - both alive now and alive in the future?
We value politicians who ‘have a dream’ - this gave us the NHS, civil rights…

I definitely am changing my behaviour…cycling more, taking responsibility for the hidden impact of my lifestyle - have already changed the house we live in and the way we heat it. And focussing more on mountain biking than skiing…I am looking more at what I can do from my back door than travelling hundreds of miles to do it.

400kg of CO2 to drive to the Alps? 400kg!


If it's a family of 4 in the car, that is still about 1/2 the footprint of flying!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yet we will still see a parade of range rovers heading down towards the Alps in the next few weeks
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
For the sake of saying something positive, if anyone does feel like they want to contribute to the future of our planet and make a (collective) difference now before we screw our future generations over you can try this: https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/blog/2020/01/carbon-donation/
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
WindOfChange wrote:
The point is that leisure travel in its very nature creates needless journeys.
Once you decide that you're going to do that then it seems strange to start questioning your carbon footprint.
If it worries you then don't do it.


Utter ballcocks.
The world is not going to solve climate change by
a) not doing all the things humans love
b) not changing anything

WHat it needs to do is make absolutely everything a little bit more CO2 efficient on an ongoing basis over the next 50 years. This means pulling just about every lever. No silver bullet.

It absolutely makes sense to do what you want to do in a more CO2 efficient way.

I think people who want to rubbish that are just feeling guilty that they can't be bothered. There is no logical reason to have a go at people for reducing their CO2 impact. How can it be a bad thing?

"The don't go on holiday if you care about climate change" is simply making the perfect the enemy of the good. That will not address the problem.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@jedster, well said
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Jonny996 wrote:
Yet we will still see a parade of range rovers heading down towards the Alps in the next few weeks


Indeed, it's a well-known fact that you can't drive to a skiing holiday on wheels less than 22".......
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jedster, …good stuff..
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

Finally, a reality check. If you live within (say), 1000km of your intended destination, then driving is probably an option. Using a train probably expands that circle somewhat, but only if you and your destination are conveniently located to a train route. For everybody else, little option but to fly. In that case, if you believe the carbon footprint from flying is not acceptable, then ski holidays are out for you.

It depends on what you are prepared to compromise. For last year's PSB, I did Gothenburg-Tignes mostly by train. The big compromise was my time: the journey took 2 days extra (in combined, elapsed time) compared to flying. Indirectly, it cost me an extra day of holiday. Gothenburg is on a mainline route, and i did complete the journey by (shared) car but the latter was because other SHs were already driving that leg, so I could join them with minimal overall extra impact; i could have and would have done the whole lot by train and coach. Details in this thread for anyone who's interested and has time to spare. Overall conclusion is that by changing expectations and accepting compromise, it's possible to do stuff that on the face of it isn't practical. My next trip to the Alps will likely be by plane, because the compromises get too much for me personally (effectively 3 days each way, together with some really long waits on stations). But I'll definitely look at the train more, now.

Virtue signalling? Maybe. Or alternatively, revisiting priorities and sharing the experience (which definitely won't be right for some - I would not try to do the same journey with my family, others might). I am troubled by the impact my skiing has, so I will try ways to reduce that impact. I don't expect to get to net zero any time soon, but even a few percent less is better than nothing IMHO. I also don't expect that what works for me, will work for everyone. But if people don't share their ideas and experiences, most of us will never change.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Jonny996 wrote:
Yet we will still see a parade of range rovers heading down towards the Alps in the next few weeks


Isn't that just a communist view based on class Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Haggis_Trap wrote:

Correct - becoming greener is not necessarily convenient or easy.
Society has some difficult choices to make.


the only way to become greener is to make the things we do that are not green, green
No difficult choices, as the vast majority will give little toss in making difficult choices when the difficult decision costs pounds instead of pence.

Would I drive an electric car? Yes
Would I choose an electric car for green reasons? No
I would choose one based on costs & running costs. I wonder about charging facilities. If I wanted to drive to Scotland, I can stop for 5mins, fill up & go.
I could not do that with an electric. I could fly, but maybe I want my car to explore. I could fly & rent, but why would I want to go to the expense of all that?

So the choice is easy. Stick with a diesel for convenience.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Mr.Egg, …we have changed a lot of what we do. Some makes no economic sense and is inconvenient. But it seems a necessity. It isn’t virtue signalling…it’s heavily fuelled by concern…which in turn is driven by science.

Currently we have two diesel cars. I am waiting to know whether hydrogen or electric is the way forward. And I need a load carrier … Rivian? Ford?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
RobinS wrote:
@Elsie80, Don't have an answer to your question I'm afraid, and while I am more keen on reducing carbon output in the first place, offsetting is better than nothing. If you put this alongside general awareness and efforts to reduce your carbon footprint good for you, and I wish you well. The responses of some on here are an indication of why the planet is in the mess it is.


Thank you! Can’t believe some of the responses. A simple question which I thought would have a fairly simple answer seems to have created a really disappointing thread. I do everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint at home and on holiday - from recycling to green energy through to carbon offsetting. It is everyone’s responsibility to ensure we are doing our bit. Especially as one day skiing in some areas of Europe might not exist because of climate change and probably use more energy to try and keep them open for us enthusiasts that love the sport.

Sad to think that we are not all thinking in the same way. If everyone did this - reduced there emissions from travel - offsetting what they can then they are helping and doing their small bit. Sitting back and thinking that it’s others responsibility or you not caring is so sad.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I had a really big poo this morning - would that count as part of my carbon footprint?

It was more interesting than this turd of a thread
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Mr.Egg wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:

Correct - becoming greener is not necessarily convenient or easy.
Society has some difficult choices to make.


the only way to become greener is to make the things we do that are not green, green

No difficult choices, as the vast majority will give little toss in making difficult choices when the difficult decision costs pounds instead of pence.

Would I drive an electric car? Yes
Would I choose an electric car for green reasons? No
I would choose one based on costs & running costs. I wonder about charging facilities. If I wanted to drive to Scotland, I can stop for 5mins, fill up & go.
I could not do that with an electric. I could fly, but maybe I want my car to explore. I could fly & rent, but why would I want to go to the expense of all that?

So the choice is easy. Stick with a diesel for convenience.


Firstly it's not. We can still produce carbon dioxide into the atmosphere so long as we also have an equal and opposite way of sequestering carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. That is why carbon targets are net.

Secondly, do you mean 'green' or 'greener'? If the latter, then surely that includes getting the train to the Alps or driving an electric car, because both of those options are currently available and considerably greener. Or would you only consider that an option if the train will get you from Bristol to GVA in 1.5 hours, or an electric car has the range and refilling times of a diesel? Or if it your mode of transport produced 1g of CO2 per 100 miles, this would make it not fully green, so diesel it is?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Elsie80, don’t despair…firstly the thread does contain the research-grounded information you asked for. Secondly, the thread reflects the diversity of views, most of which do acknowledge what was heavily contested even five years ago - is climate change happening? To which I think there is a consensus: yes. We are now in a more difficult phase of discussion….what should we do…and a lot of that is difficult stuff…
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@Mr.Egg, @ulmerhutte, @WindOfChange, what should we do about climate change and all that then?
I'll leave it to you to define 'we' in any way you like.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Elsie80 wrote:
RobinS wrote:
@Elsie80, Don't have an answer to your question I'm afraid, and while I am more keen on reducing carbon output in the first place, offsetting is better than nothing. If you put this alongside general awareness and efforts to reduce your carbon footprint good for you, and I wish you well. The responses of some on here are an indication of why the planet is in the mess it is.


Thank you! Can’t believe some of the responses. A simple question which I thought would have a fairly simple answer seems to have created a really disappointing thread. I do everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint at home and on holiday - from recycling to green energy through to carbon offsetting. It is everyone’s responsibility to ensure we are doing our bit. Especially as one day skiing in some areas of Europe might not exist because of climate change and probably use more energy to try and keep them open for us enthusiasts that love the sport.

Sad to think that we are not all thinking in the same way. If everyone did this - reduced there emissions from travel - offsetting what they can then they are helping and doing their small bit. Sitting back and thinking that it’s others responsibility or you not caring is so sad.


Thanks for raising the point. I will now look into it for our planned trip. Sadly, I also got similar patronising and snippy responses when I criticised the tone of another thread the other day. I used to use this forum regularly but some of the responses to that and this thread really disappoint me. Thank you for starting the thread.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 27-01-22 13:53; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Yellow Snow wrote:
I had a really big poo this morning - would that count as part of my carbon footprint?

It was more interesting than this turd of a thread


I do hope that you've found someone to change your diaper Toofy Grin
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Elsie80, it's only a disappointing thread if you pay any notice to certain well known posters. If you learn to ignore them then you'll find that others have the same feeling of responsibility.
Even I'm thinking of an electric car & I'm the most petrol of petrolheads
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Jonny996 wrote:

Even I'm thinking of an electric car & I'm the most petrol of petrolheads


Tesla the new Porsche Wink
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Elsie80 wrote:
I was looking at offsetting our carbon footprint for our ski holiday - trying to work out a rough carbon amount… anyone done this before? We are driving from Wiltshire to Spain and back.


What a load of absolute nonsense, virtue signalling. I drive to the Alps all the time and couldn't give a Be Nice please! about emissions, hopefully getting a 4.0 L pick up.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
nevis1003 wrote:
I drive to the Alps all the time and couldn't give a about emissions, hopefully getting a 4.0 L pick up.


oh well - with that attitude there wont be much snow in 40 years time.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
nevis1003 wrote:
Elsie80 wrote:
I was looking at offsetting our carbon footprint for our ski holiday - trying to work out a rough carbon amount… anyone done this before? We are driving from Wiltshire to Spain and back.


What a load of absolute nonsense, virtue signalling. I drive to the Alps all the time and couldn't give a about emissions, hopefully getting a 4.0 L pick up.


What a load of absolute nonsense, iniquity signalling.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As soon as the vehicle names are used in the form of lazy left wing journalistic code for "other" "the upper classes" (Range Rover, Porsche, Chelsea tractor etc) it implies that the target that should be fixing things is one that the author feels inferior to, effectively arguing on a class basis. What impact real or otherwise could that have on carbon footprint? If someone wishes to project that, has their further view any accurate impact on the thread.

I thought the OP asked a valid question, and responded constructively. It should be interesting to see fact based reasoning to help them determine practical quantification and get informed input on what is possible to diminish the effects that brings.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Elsie80, it’s good to calculate your carbon footprint from travelling to your ski holiday. But rather than engaging in a dubious greenwash offsetting scheme maybe better to work out direct actions you can take to mitigate this? Unnecessary journeys at home, doing all your laundry at 30 deg C (why wouldn’t anyone?), turn down heating thermostat, your food miles, etc?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
caughtanedge wrote:
@Mr.Egg, @ulmerhutte, @WindOfChange, what should we do about climate change and all that then?
I'll leave it to you to define 'we' in any way you like.


nothing. Any difference you do, would be the equivalent of trying to put the great fire of london out by spitting at it.
Every 1 ton of carbon saved in the UK, India is creating 5x more. So you need to address that problem first.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mr.Egg wrote:
caughtanedge wrote:
@Mr.Egg, @ulmerhutte, @WindOfChange, what should we do about climate change and all that then?
I'll leave it to you to define 'we' in any way you like.


Anything we can. Any difference you do, would be the equivalent of trying to put the great fire of london out by spitting at it, so we need to get millions of people spitting for it to have an impact and persuade people that shoving fingers in their ears and shouting 'lalalala I'm not listening' is part of the problem.
Every 1 ton of carbon saved in the UK, India is creating 5x more. So you need to address that problem whilst simultaneously sorting out our own bin fire..


FIFY
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Why do some people get so angry if others choose to make the choice to cut their carbon emissions? Evidently some on here feel they have no moral responsibility to do so, that's their choice, but why get so angry about it if others do.

Tomorrow I'll travel by train to the Alps for the second time this season. I've turned down several (free) trips this season that would have involved flying, not because I never fly, but because I want to reduce the number of flights I take every year. That's my choice. Systemic global change will make more of a difference, but to me reducing your emissions is a moral issue.

@elsie80 - as long as your car has 3-4 passengers, you will likely reduce your emissions. More info available at www.skiflightfree.org
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Well - Max Planck said that ‘to get change (in science) you need to wait for the old scientists to die…’ and in a slightly different sense it has been said recently ‘science advances one funeral at a time…’

Hmmmmm……

In terms of change here, in India, and elsewhere, we ain’t seen nothing yet….just wait. But not long.
I recall the ‘The The’ lyric ‘all the bankers getting sweaty, beneath their white collars…’ and that’s the thing…look underneath at the rapidly changing patterns of investment. Billions of stranded assets in the petrochemical and aviation industries.

Iainm - that’s my position too.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
iainm wrote:
Why do some people get so angry if others choose to make the choice to cut their carbon emissions? Evidently some on here feel they have no moral responsibility to do so, that's their choice, but why get so angry about it if others do.

Tomorrow I'll travel by train to the Alps for the second time this season. I've turned down several (free) trips this season that would have involved flying, not because I never fly, but because I want to reduce the number of flights I take every year. That's my choice. Systemic global change will make more of a difference, but to me reducing your emissions is a moral issue.

@elsie80 - as long as your car has 3-4 passengers, you will likely reduce your emissions. More info available at www.skiflightfree.org


Because seeing others trying to do the right thing makes them feel inadequate and guilty.
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Mr.Egg wrote:
Timmycb5 wrote:
[

In Kohlberg's theory of moral development this is a hard 1.2


my moral compass is guided by whatever serves me best.
I will fly, drive, sail by whatever is the best value and quickest.


So like me then......no moral compass Very Happy Very Happy

My diesel gets down there on a £70 tank of gas each way - when India, The States, Russia, China's output reduces, meaning that my car isn't registering a mini, mini, mini miniscule amount of harmful gases then I will do my bit. But in the meantime all this cobblers on here is completely unimportant
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Elsie80 wrote:
RobinS wrote:
@Elsie80, Don't have an answer to your question I'm afraid, and while I am more keen on reducing carbon output in the first place, offsetting is better than nothing. If you put this alongside general awareness and efforts to reduce your carbon footprint good for you, and I wish you well. The responses of some on here are an indication of why the planet is in the mess it is.


Thank you! Can’t believe some of the responses. A simple question which I thought would have a fairly simple answer seems to have created a really disappointing thread. I do everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint at home and on holiday - from recycling to green energy through to carbon offsetting. It is everyone’s responsibility to ensure we are doing our bit. Especially as one day skiing in some areas of Europe might not exist because of climate change and probably use more energy to try and keep them open for us enthusiasts that love the sport.

Sad to think that we are not all thinking in the same way. If everyone did this - reduced there emissions from travel - offsetting what they can then they are helping and doing their small bit. Sitting back and thinking that it’s others responsibility or you not caring is so sad.


A couple of years ago I started a similar thread in Après Zone regarding carbon compensation for flights, and the majority response was not too far from many of the answers in this thread ("just don't go", "China and India dwarf anyway your impact so no point in doing anything", "this is virtue signalling", "none of the carbon compensation schemes work" etc.

I have to say that it's tough to maintain a positive attitude and try to do something that costs you money in the face of these reactions. Even planting trees is apparently pointless.

(I don't think that by and large I'm virtue signalling, I freely admit that my carbon footprint is rather large and that although I do some things to reduce it, there is still a lot more that I could do).
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Mr.Egg wrote:
caughtanedge wrote:
@Mr.Egg, @ulmerhutte, @WindOfChange, what should we do about climate change and all that then?
I'll leave it to you to define 'we' in any way you like.


nothing. Any difference you do, would be the equivalent of trying to put the great fire of london out by spitting at it.
Every 1 ton of carbon saved in the UK, India is creating 5x more. So you need to address that problem first.


Not sure who you mean by 'you'. Assuming you mean me - OK, so I've got to sort out India's carbon emission problems.
What are you going to do about climate change? Or are you leaving it all to someone else? Or do you think it's not a problem?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
horizon wrote:

A couple of years ago I started a similar thread in Après Zone regarding carbon compensation for flights, and the majority response was not too far from many of the answers in this thread ("just don't go", "China and India dwarf anyway your impact so no point in doing anything", "this is virtue signalling", "none of the carbon compensation schemes work" etc.


Carbon compensation schemes are middle class green-wash (unless you can garuntee those trees will be replanted and replaced forever more).

Far more effective to take train / drive / fly less.
Ultimately real change won't come from individual actions - but it's a start.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
iainm wrote:
Why do some people get so angry if others choose to make the choice to cut their carbon emissions? Evidently some on here feel they have no moral responsibility to do so, that's their choice, but why get so angry about it if others do.


it's not anger.
It is the equivalent of someone not eating beef because cows fart a lot & then going out to buy some leather goods.

You could fly & then go buy a few trees to plant if it really bothered you that much...

I find it quite hilarious how inconsistent peoples beliefs are around these kind of things.

If you dont take that seat on the plane, someone else will. You have saved absolutely nothing. If that person had no other way to travel, then you have increased co2 by travelling another means.
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