Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
I think I would respectfully disagree- the basic tenent of e.g. short BASI turns is that only a part of it is carved, typically from below the fall line. The rotation above the fall line makes the turn less rounded than a pure carved slalom turn. Not to mention the pressuring at the bottom of the turn seen in instructor world.
I think you are also confusing 'grip' with carving. A carved, or carved from at our before the fall line, turn would satisfy the L3 and L4 criteria, but the corridor would typically be set so this isn't possible. Virtually all the racers you posted in your original video are doing a much wider corridor than would typically be set for L3 or L4 shorts.
OK, but you and @ptex are saying that the technique is the same for BASI and racers above though no? I thought that implied that both turns were carved? I am confused now, since @snowrider now also says that no part of the BASI short turn is carved
How can the technique be the same if one turn is carving and one isn't? As an aside, there are some really beautiful videos of the top skiers carving in narrow corridors, this is one of my favourites:
The techniques are different and the task is different. In the video above Mikaela is carving in a narrow corridor as she is making short arc length turns, ie skis dont turn any further from the fall line than they need to as the task is to get to the bottom as quickly as possible and she is going quick! For the BASI short turn generally it is a much fuller arc turn as the task is usually to descend at a (slower) constant rate of descent.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There's probably a good opportunity for a skiing pose detection and coaching/scoring app, similar to Carv, but just using a phone camera. You could quantify things like average angulation and rotational separation and make descriptions of different styles more objective.
There's probably a good opportunity for a skiing pose detection and coaching/scoring app, similar to Carv, but just using a phone camera. You could quantify things like average angulation and rotational separation and make descriptions of different styles more objective.
I've thought about things like that too, and they seem like a good use of technology, especially for professional instructors. That said, there is something to be said about feeling in ski instruction rather than more quantifiable things.
I have always worked in extremely technical fields, and have essentially 'read the internet' (and books etc) on skiing. None of it helps! I can best describe the thing I am currently working on as a kind of 'whoosh' I tend to learn these feelings from instructor-led drills, and then try to replicate the sensation while skiing. Another problem I have had over the years is also over thinking, and ending up very robotic. One of the most useful things I did over Christmas was simply trying to follow an ex-racer instructor carving (fast!) down a piste. As a late starter in skiing, I need things like this, which replicate the 'free' (Phil Smith would say open!) way in which kids ski.
What would perhaps help me would be instant video feedback between runs, on a screen which I could see in bright sunlight. Maybe some sort of goggle implanted jobby that would wirelessly link to the coaches camera?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I very much emphasise with that. It's very hard to practice something to effectively improve if you don't get immediate feedback on your performance (e.g. did I hit the target with the ball). When you begin skiing you do get that feedback (did I fall over?), but once past that stage the link gets broken and you end up wondering was that a good turn? Could it be better? How? If you were watching yourself it would be obvious. If I had goggle-implanted video I'd even want it as a real-time stream.
I always think that with drills too. The best ones have a success/fail feedback mechanism (e.g. pole-dragging, could you keep it up through the whole run?). There are a million drills out there, but I'd love to have a structured training program where the drills are all increasingly hard challenges where you can tell if you've succeeded or not, rather than just skiing a run with your hands on your hips and thinking well, was that good?
OK, but you and @ptex are saying that the technique is the same for BASI and racers above though no? I thought that implied that both turns were carved? I am confused now, since @snowrider now also says that no part of the BASI short turn is carved
How can the technique be the same if one turn is carving and one isn't? As an aside, there are some really beautiful videos of the top skiers carving in narrow corridors, this is one of my favourites:
We're saying the techniques are similar *when the task is similar*.
For longs the task is typically completely clean turns showing a high degree of ski performance and ability to influence the radius. This means relatively big edge angle and forces needing biomechanically efficient body positions and movement patterns. Most systems look at how GS racers achieve this
For shorts the task is typically rounded turns with grip from the fall line in a fairly narrow corridor. The idea is more that skiing in shorts, variables, outside line bumps, steeps looks 'similar' and uses elements of steering rather than targeting completely clean turns.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
JamesHJ wrote:
What would perhaps help me would be instant video feedback between runs, on a screen which I could see in bright sunlight. Maybe some sort of goggle implanted jobby that would wirelessly link to the coaches camera?
Without wanting to come across as some kind of Jedi kn*b, you can work on this from feeling the position of your shins/calves in the boot, where your weight is (forefoot, mid foot, rear foot), where are your hips in relation to your heels/toes, how bent are your ankles, knees, hips, where are your hands etc etc. Then when skiing you can do a mental checklist/refresh in safe/less steep areas and get instant feedback!
Or have a mate video you on the phone, inc skiing towards them, past them and away from them. Side on video you can then draw a line down thru the skiers head, knees etc which can be very telling!!
After all it is free
After all it is free
I read an interesting article last week on coaching cricket. There isn't anything very specific described in it but the coach was doing the same kind of things that we aim to do for ski race coaching.
What works best is for the athlete to teach themselves. The coach helps to match up what the athlete thinks they are doing with what the coach can see is happening and tries to align the two. Once this is working then the coach just prompts the athlete for what the athlete is planning to do next.
I have seen plenty of people go on courses with big name instructors and just mentally switch off, they seem to think that they are going to learn stuff without needing to think about it.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rjs wrote:
I read an interesting article last week on coaching cricket. There isn't anything very specific described in it but the coach was doing the same kind of things that we aim to do for ski race coaching.
What works best is for the athlete to teach themselves. The coach helps to match up what the athlete thinks they are doing with what the coach can see is happening and tries to align the two. Once this is working then the coach just prompts the athlete for what the athlete is planning to do next.
I have seen plenty of people go on courses with big name instructors and just mentally switch off, they seem to think that they are going to learn stuff without needing to think about it.
The most useful/transferable skill i've learned from mucking about with skis is to be coachable.
Apparently quite rare, I had an instructor look at me in disbelief in Bansko and say "I like skiing with you, you actually try to do what I asked you to"
p.s. One of the drills I was doing was related to fore/aft balance, and involved trying to start the turn by lifting the ski tails off the snow. She was all about initiating with the very tip of the ski in short turns.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Apparently quite rare
not on our courses, quite the opposite
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimottaret wrote:
Quote:
Apparently quite rare
not on our courses, quite the opposite
Good to hear, the UK operators invariably attract a nice crowd
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@rjs, Thats been a big thing with England hockey, rather than creating robots with drills involving cones and patterns of play they want open game based drills where players have to work things out/try/fail/try again and see what works for them. I think that kind of ethos was meant to be a common coaching thread across UK sports.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs wrote:
I read an interesting article last week on coaching cricket. There isn't anything very specific described in it but the coach was doing the same kind of things that we aim to do for ski race coaching.
What works best is for the athlete to teach themselves. The coach helps to match up what the athlete thinks they are doing with what the coach can see is happening and tries to align the two. Once this is working then the coach just prompts the athlete for what the athlete is planning to do next.
I have seen plenty of people go on courses with big name instructors and just mentally switch off, they seem to think that they are going to learn stuff without needing to think about it.
At one point my son's hockey team was being coached for matches (rather than training sessions) by a friend who is an ex-Olympic rower (the hockey coaches were overstretched). He - by his own admission - knew very little about hockey when he started. It was great to see him coaching the team. He just kept asking them questions about what was working and what wasn't? Why? And why that? What do you think you should do differently? Obviously he had some views and made some suggestions but the way he got the lads to work things out for themselves was brilliant and they loved it.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@jedster, see above, he was bang on point
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret wrote:
Quote:
Apparently quite rare
not on our courses, quite the opposite
That’s only coz they all have a crush on teacher!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Old Fartbag wrote:
JamesHJ wrote:
@Old Fartbag,
You said that:
"@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. More control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though."
When you say "flex to transition", does this approximate to what people mean when they talk about 'cross-under'?
Just a quick note to say that I finally got the chance to watch this video in detail. It is absolutely fabulous, and I just can’t get over how clear it is. There are a few things in there that we wondered about for years.
Thanks a lot!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
JamesHJ wrote:
Just a quick note to say that I finally got the chance to watch this video in detail. It is absolutely fabulous, and I just can’t get over how clear it is. There are a few things in there that we wondered about for years.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I tend to learn these feelings from instructor-led drills, and then try to replicate the sensation while skiing. Another problem I have had over the years is also over thinking, and ending up very robotic. One of the most useful things I did over Christmas was simply trying to follow an ex-racer instructor carving (fast!) down a piste. As a late starter in skiing, I need things like this, which replicate the 'free' (Phil Smith would say open!) way in which kids ski.
