Is coil the same as counter then?
I know its a different context but when on very steep ground you want to get your skis round very quick (jump turn or just pivoted) twisting at the waist and pole planting a long way back while keeping your hips forward creates a “coiled spring” which can help whip your skis round when you release your edges. I’ve called that “counter”.
Oh just seen that you are using “countering” in the context of hip rotation so may be I’ve been using it wrong. BTW that explanation of hip counter and high edge angles is very clear and helpful - thanks.
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This talk of being square to the skis is useful to me. What i've been working on recently is really making the outside hip follow around with the skis. Basically avoiding the weak folded position, where the hip ends up a pushed back by the forces, and the body is twisted vs the legs. If you get it right, you can really stand on the edge, even on ice.
I am sure that is an awful explanation, but the motions that it correspond to got the nod of approval from my instructor!
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JamesHJ wrote:
This talk of being square to the skis is useful to me. What i've been working on recently is really making the outside hip follow around with the skis. Basically avoiding the weak folded position, where the hip ends up a pushed back by the forces, and the body is twisted vs the legs. If you get it right, you can really stand on the edge, even on ice.
I am sure that is an awful explanation, but the motions that it correspond to got the nod of approval from my instructor!
Back in the day, I was taught that the uphill ski should be ahead (In fact everything uphill should be ahead) ....and that all switched over when changing direction.
When adapting to more modern technique on Carving Skis, especially on Longer Turns, I had to work on skiing more square to my skis (or stacked) - which in my case, meant pulling the uphill ski back a little, to stop it sliding too far ahead with each turn.
IMV. The uphill ski will always be a little bit ahead due to standing sideways on a hill, but not to the extent it used to be.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 5-01-22 18:03; edited 1 time in total
Is coil the same as counter then?
I know its a different context but when on very steep ground you want to get your skis round very quick (jump turn or just pivoted) twisting at the waist and pole planting a long way back while keeping your hips forward creates a “coiled spring” which can help whip your skis round when you release your edges. I’ve called that “counter”.
Oh just seen that you are using “countering” in the context of hip rotation so may be I’ve been using it wrong. BTW that explanation of hip counter and high edge angles is very clear and helpful - thanks.
I remember that.
I think it was called Anticipation - where tension was created by the upper body facing d/hill, with the skis facing across the hill, all stabilised by a Pole Plant. As you say, when that tension was released, with the flattening of the skis, the skis came round - as long as you remained facing downhill.
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Yep - think the French called it “anticipation”. I still find it useful when you are - say - in a steep couloir and feeling a little tense about making THAT turn
Yep - think the French called it “anticipation”. I still find it useful when you are - say - in a steep couloir and feeling a little tense about making THAT turn
In that situation - where you planted the pole well back and was doing one turn at a time - IIRC combining it with Banking (planting the pole downhill from you) at the start of the turn, helped with initiating the turn.
Old School still has its uses!
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The movement pattern we have been describing of trying to keep hips square to the skis is not the same as anticipation.
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rjs wrote:
The movement pattern we have been describing of trying to keep hips square to the skis is not the same as anticipation.
I figured as much - but a trip down memory lane proved irresistible, even if diversionary.
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I think the initial comparison is a bit unfair. Firstly the initial 'BASI' video is poor - the one of Lynn (I think?) that Haggis_Trap posted is much better. But also the objectives are different. Lynn is not trying to carve cleanly: the short turn task would normally be set (corridor, terrain) so that you are expected not to be able to satisfy the task by carving the whole turn cleanly. I think that is the point - it's to demonstrate that you have the steering skills which you need on very steep pitches, off piste, in bumps, tricky conditions etc, and the people you are going to be teaching need almost everywhere.
If the task was "ski the tightest corridor you can cleanly", I don't think you'd see as much difference - other than that corridor would be tighter for a good racer on race gear. A better comparison for most of the racers skiing is to BASI longs, where there is a lot more similarity of body shape and movement patterns. Here's Lynn again, where the task *is* to ski completely cleanly and the corridor is set so that is achievable on the terrain and equipment.
@turbosmurf, I agree with all of the above. It is interesting that the BASI long turns are more similar to the racing style. I guess this fits with the (former) need to pass the GS Eurotest.
Does it also imply that shorter turns, and by extension slalom, are harder
I’ve often wondered about the relative paucity of UK skiers passing the Test Technique.
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rjs wrote:
The movement pattern we have been describing of trying to keep hips square to the skis is not the same as anticipation.
yes I get that - anticipation involves actively twisting your torso away from your tips. What you are describing is your hips being turned away from your torso as they follow the skis carving across the fall line and your shoulders remain close to the fall line (I think)
It was the idea of "coil" that struck me - than you have energy stored in the twist of the spine. But take your point that the twist is created with different motions.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jedster wrote:
rjs wrote:
The movement pattern we have been describing of trying to keep hips square to the skis is not the same as anticipation.
yes I get that - anticipation involves actively twisting your torso away from your tips. What you are describing is your hips being turned away from your torso as they follow the skis carving across the fall line and your shoulders remain close to the fall line (I think)
It was the idea of "coil" that struck me - than you have energy stored in the twist of the spine. But take your point that the twist is created with different motions.
I certainly think it could be argued, that every type of Short Turn has "built in" anticipation and the twisting of the torso stores Energy by putting the body under tension, that is then released into the turn.
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@jedster, For me, one objective of keeping the pelvis square to the skis is to minimise the rotational forces that you transmit to the skis, either when adding pressure to the skis using leg extension or when absorbing a bump. The intent is the opposite of anticipation.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Old Fartbag wrote:
jedster wrote:
rjs wrote:
The movement pattern we have been describing of trying to keep hips square to the skis is not the same as anticipation.
yes I get that - anticipation involves actively twisting your torso away from your tips. What you are describing is your hips being turned away from your torso as they follow the skis carving across the fall line and your shoulders remain close to the fall line (I think)
It was the idea of "coil" that struck me - than you have energy stored in the twist of the spine. But take your point that the twist is created with different motions.
I certainly think it could be argued, that every type of Short Turn has "built in" anticipation and the twisting of the torso stores Energy by putting the body under tension, that is then released into the turn.
As I see it (... will try to keep this simple).
All turns have some kind of separation between upper & lower body.
Generally this movement comes from head of the femur in the hip joint.
Though it could come from higher up the body (but this risks twisting the spine)
Turns in order of degree of separation:
moguls (or jump turns in couloir) : lots of separation.
skier is trying to move feet as fast possible without rotating entire body.
short radius : centre of mass moves straight down hill as skis deflect to either side.
the BASI demo-video has lots of separation visible on the short turns.
though as discussed racers might have very little separation (they are going faster, balancing against higher forces and avoid femur steering which can cause skidding).
longer radius : generally the least separation of any turn.
skiers are trying to stay strong and balance against forces generated higher speed turns.
some separation still required to set you up for the next turn.
the confusion seems to comes from people using different terminology to describe similar but / different scenarios.
coil / counter-rotation / rotational-separation <etc> worthy of a whole different topic!
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 5-01-22 23:20; edited 1 time in total
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JamesHJ wrote:
@turbosmurf, I agree with all of the above. It is interesting that the BASI long turns are more similar to the racing style. I guess this fits with the (former) need to pass the GS Eurotest.
Does it also imply that shorter turns, and by extension slalom, are harder
I’ve often wondered about the relative paucity of UK skiers passing the Test Technique.
Not many UK skiers pass the test technique because there's no real reason to. Test technique is needed for French instructors to become stagiaires, but there is no requirement in the British system.
Eurotest is needed for level 4 and moniteur nationale, so both do that.
BASI short turns are not trying to be slalom turns, they are grippy, rounded, turns with a large steered element more relevant to general skiing - lower speed and tighter radius than would be possible from pure carved turns. All the other national systems have a similar strand.
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rjs wrote:
@jedster, For me, one objective of keeping the pelvis square to the skis is to minimise the rotational forces that you transmit to the skis, either when adding pressure to the skis using leg extension or when absorbing a bump. The intent is the opposite of anticipation.
I buy that.
I guess though that the "coil" has some benefit at transition. WHen you release the edges to cross-under, the unwind of the coil combines with the rebound to get the tips across and set up the new carved line.
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turbosmurf wrote:
JamesHJ wrote:
@turbosmurf, I agree with all of the above. It is interesting that the BASI long turns are more similar to the racing style. I guess this fits with the (former) need to pass the GS Eurotest.
Does it also imply that shorter turns, and by extension slalom, are harder
I’ve often wondered about the relative paucity of UK skiers passing the Test Technique.
Not many UK skiers pass the test technique because there's no real reason to. Test technique is needed for French instructors to become stagiaires, but there is no requirement in the British system.
Eurotest is needed for level 4 and moniteur nationale, so both do that.
.
As an aside, I believe that passing the test technique is currently the only way for a new British ski instructor to establish themselves in France. I guess they would need to be a resident as well.
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JamesHJ wrote:
As an aside, I believe that passing the test technique is currently the only way for a new British ski instructor to establish themselves in France. I guess they would need to be a resident as well.
Good point....
Fwiw : You used to be able to teach in France with BASI L2 plus test technique as stagiere. I wondered why more people didn't do that... However a mate (ex BASI trainer) reckoned the TT was much harder than euro-test. Slalom a technical discipline - plus you are up against thousands of French kids who raced twice a week snow from age 7.
Very interesting thread. I’d give anything to be able to ski as cleanly as those WC guys. I might give up pole planting.
I have to admit I laughed out loud at 20 seconds into that first BASI video. I’m sure he’s way better at skiing with a controlled deliberate style than I am, but I can’t believe anybody would want to be taught to ski like that. It looks like a drill that involves a cucumber and poles that are 20cm too long.
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@hold_my_biere, its an ancient video from 2015, perhaps @JamesHJ, could replace it with the more modern shorts and longs videos posted in here?
the confusion seems to comes from people using different terminology to describe similar but / different scenarios.
coil / counter-rotation / rotational-separation <etc> worthy of a whole different topic!
I think this is right.
For me, Anticipation simply means the upper body has anticipated (or has a head start) on the turn that is about to happen.
- Where you are facing across the hill, on a steep slope, you actively twist the body in the direction the turn is about to take
- Where you are doing Short Turns, skidded, carved or racing slalom - you don't need to turn the upper body to anticipate the turn, as it is already doing so ie. At the end of the turn, the skis are across the hill and the upper body is facing down the hill. I freely admit that I may be incorrectly using the word "Anticipation" for this application....which is why I used the term "Built-In" (rather than an active twist).
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 6-01-22 16:37; edited 1 time in total
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Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing. Interestingly when watching his skiing, there seems to be little or no movement of his upper body either vertically or fall-line (very still, even looks like he's not doing anything at all at times, even though he clearly is).
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Old Fartbag wrote:
- Where you are facing across the hill, on a steep slope, you actively twist the body in the direction the turn is about to take
Although if doing longer carved turns you wouldn't actively twist the upper body IMHO
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kitenski wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
- Where you are facing across the hill, on a steep slope, you actively twist the body in the direction the turn is about to take
Although if doing longer carved turns you wouldn't actively twist the upper body IMHO
Hah! I am not talking about longer carved turns .....but explaining a mostly redundant Old School technique, that can be used when skiimg in a very steep, narrow gully, where you are moving slowly, doing one turn at a time. It is used if you want to get down without dying!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 6-01-22 16:39; edited 4 times in total
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ptex wrote:
Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
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turbosmurf wrote:
ptex wrote:
Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
I think I would respectfully disagree- the basic tenent of e.g. short BASI turns is that only a part of it is carved, typically from below the fall line. The rotation above the fall line makes the turn less rounded than a pure carved slalom turn. Not to mention the pressuring at the bottom of the turn seen in instructor world.
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@JamesHJ, BASI short turns criteria varies. L3 one doesn't appear on their website, so taken from the video. There are some nuances in my limited experience ie on my level 2 they wanted us to keep the same speed throughout the run, ie not speeding up as you got further down the hills. Then in my case I was told my shorts were above the standard so the trainer had me playing around with a little rotation to scrub off speed before engaging the edges.
L1: Perform round parallel turns on a blue or easy red piste without traverse
L2: Perform grippy, (from the fall line), round, symmetrical, short turns in various corridors on a blue or easy red piste.
L3: Perform grippy, (from the fall line) symmetrical, short turns, in a variety of corridor widths on a red piste
L4: Perform grippy (at the fall-line) symmetrical turns, short turns, in various corridors on a black piste
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JamesHJ wrote:
turbosmurf wrote:
ptex wrote:
Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
I think I would respectfully disagree- the basic tenent of e.g. short BASI turns is that only a part of it is carved, typically from below the fall line. The rotation above the fall line makes the turn less rounded than a pure carved slalom turn. Not to mention the pressuring at the bottom of the turn seen in instructor world.
The BASI L4 short turns are similar to WC race turns
It is fair to comment there is more vertical movement & rotational seperation in BASI (or any instructor association turn).
As I see it : this is a primarily a function of the task ("grippy" turns) and tighter turn radius as opposed to the pure speed a racer would seek.
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You know it makes sense.
@kitenski, @Haggis_Trap, just out of curiosity, what does 'grippy' actually mean in this context? I've heard the term a lot, but never dared ask
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JamesHJ wrote:
@kitenski, @Haggis_Trap, just out of curiosity, what does 'grippy' actually mean in this context? I've heard the term a lot, but never dared ask
That is a very good question that I have often wondered myself!
Best explanation I have been given is "balanced on outside ski without it breaking away". I agree the short turn criteria is confusing. However I believe it is described that way because a pure short radius carve is only really possible on slalom ski. Most people doing BASI exams are on skis with longer turn radius that can also be used for longs & variables.
If short turn criteria was a clean arc then candidates would need to caddy multiple sets of skis.
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I put this together a few years ago and may help the discussion, not short turns but GS skiing at different levels.
https://vimeo.com/73243874
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skimottaret wrote:
I put this together a few years ago and may help the discussion, not short turns but GS skiing at different levels.
https://vimeo.com/73243874
That's a fabulous video- thanks! I was still waiting for my level at the end though, punter ski racing
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so from what I remember of L2 grippy meant locked in on the edge vs skidding.
So L1 could skid as long as controlled, rounded turns, L2 needed an edge engaged and not skidding from the fall line, ie getting grip. That's my interpretation anyhow!
I think @skimottaret, has some good video. of L4 skiers on an icy black getting grip early on a BASI course from memory??
so from what I remember of L2 grippy meant locked in on the edge vs skidding.
So L1 could skid as long as controlled, rounded turns, L2 needed an edge engaged and not skidding from the fall line, ie getting grip. That's my interpretation anyhow!
I think @skimottaret, has some good video. of L4 skiers on an icy black getting grip early on a BASI course from memory??
What you are thinking of as 'grippy' is what BASI calls 'clean'. Grippy means the ski is not carving completely cleanly but there is still a lot of edge and bend of the ski and the ski is still predominantly moving forward along it's length rather than sideways - it is steered rather than skidded. The shorts I posted above are grippy but not clean. The longs are clean.
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@kitenski, you mean this one ? It was very icy and even the L4 examiners were struggling (sorry Jimmy )
All the skiers were L3's at the time but all (maybe bar one) went onto get their L4 techs
Another top quality video thanks! What slope is that btw? It appears a lot in ski instructor videos.
I am reminded of a BASI trainer who reputedly managed a somersault while skiing moguls, bouncing off his unhelmeted head, before casually arriving to meet the trainees,and saying "You alright lads?" as if nothing had happened
Edit: I really like the skiing of first the person in purple. The following skier not so much, some real flapping going on there! Glad to hear they all progressed.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 6-01-22 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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@skimottaret, thats the one, cheers, nice skiing in there apart from the bloopers!! did you not have a non outake version???
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@JamesHJ, Its in Morzine under the restaurant, That pitch is FIS homologated and used for Eurotests so a favourite training spot for L4 wanabees
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JamesHJ wrote:
turbosmurf wrote:
ptex wrote:
Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
I think I would respectfully disagree- the basic tenent of e.g. short BASI turns is that only a part of it is carved, typically from below the fall line. The rotation above the fall line makes the turn less rounded than a pure carved slalom turn. Not to mention the pressuring at the bottom of the turn seen in instructor world.
No part of the BASI short turn is carved. You are not trying to increase edge angle after the fall line to lock the ski into a carve. The edge angle will remain fairly constant through the majority of the turn as you are trying to have the same amount of grip through as much of the turn as possible and this will lead to having a narrow but pretty constant track width through the majority of the turn.
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JamesHJ wrote:
turbosmurf wrote:
ptex wrote:
Interesting thread. I asked one of our lot who used to race and subsequently instructor qualified in a non-BASI system about this; his view was that the technique is essentially the same, in short turns it was about more rounded short turns in instructing.
Exactly.
I think I would respectfully disagree- the basic tenent of e.g. short BASI turns is that only a part of it is carved, typically from below the fall line. The rotation above the fall line makes the turn less rounded than a pure carved slalom turn. Not to mention the pressuring at the bottom of the turn seen in instructor world.
I think you are also confusing 'grip' with carving. A carved, or carved from at our before the fall line, turn would satisfy the L3 and L4 criteria, but the corridor would typically be set so this isn't possible. Virtually all the racers you posted in your original video are doing a much wider corridor than would typically be set for L3 or L4 shorts.
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