OK, so here goes. Note that the following is all simply in the spirit of general discussion
Let's look at this first (WC skiers free skiing). Note the very quiet upper body, fairly low hands/upper body and the very clean carving. At least on easy terrain, most of the French ski club kids I see are skiing in this style.
Now take a look at this video (BASI L3 shorts) from say 20 s. What I see is a rather upright posture, and what I call a 'dancey' move (the music is perfect!). This is certainly related to the pole plants, and is also some how coupled to more rotational motion early in the turn. Note how the arms are widely apart, as if encircling a dancing partner
Note that the above video is from 2015. The one you posted is indeed better (and also L4), although I see similar elements. As an aside, I remember talking to some L4's around 2015 who said that BASI was discussing making the shorts more racing-like. No idea if that is true, or if it was just chairlift talk.
A few immediate thoughts:
1- I have no doubt that the average BASI bod could ski a lot more in the racing style if they wanted to/were told to. Obviously, I am looking at videos where they are trying to achieve a particular style.
2- One difference is certainly equipment. Racing kids are obviously very used to hooning around on slalom skis (R= 12-13 m). In the BASI videos, the ski radius is often up to 17-18 m, this requires more rotation to get them around I suppose. I think that the modern racing style also relies upon rather stiffer skis/boots.
3- However, the biggest difference is certainly the pole plants (why do they always look like their poles are too long btw?). This causes upper body motion and a very upright posture. Of course, this is for a reason, as it helps the recreational skier stay in control on steeper terrain. Actually, if you watch a WC slalom in slow-mo, you will also see a lot of pole planting going on, but it is done with much less of a demonstrative flick of the arm.
So yes (and IMV), there is a huge difference between the short turns done by kids in ski clubs, and those required by BASI. Is it a fair/useful comparision? Probably not, since the aims and equipment are so different. Interesting though
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 4-01-22 14:03; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag,
You said that:
"@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. More control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though."
When you say "flex to transition", does this approximate to what people mean when they talk about 'cross-under'?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Reply moved to here:
@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. Increased control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though.
"@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. More control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though."
When you say "flex to transition", does this approximate to what people mean when they talk about 'cross-under'?
OK thanks, that is what I understood as cross-under. A good spot.
I believe a Cross-Under turn, simply means the skis crossing under you ie. Short Turn...which doesn't exclusively mean a "Flex to Transition" initiated turn.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Do they still look like you recall ? Im only asking as I hear this from time to time that there is a "BASI" way to ski. I think there was an element of that 15+ years ago with a lot of the Trainers skiing with very wide stances but curious what people think these days..
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After all it is free
A few things to note is that you are looking at the top 60 piste skiers in the world on the warm up videos and comparing to some average L3 instructors. The WC are far better skiers but I bet if you saw some video of them skiing off piste their stance would be a bit different.
Racers tend to ski lower to be more aerodynamic and typically in boots with much more aggressive forward lean to facilitate this. Their runs are under 2 minutes and rec skiers and instructors are going all day in typically boots with a more upright setup so as to reduce musculature fatigue. Racers are much squarer to the skis than instructors as it is stronger, more powerful and faster. Instructors are also skiing for all types of terrain, not just rutted icy courses so tend to ski with much more rotary than a WC'er would. Pole plants are not required in SL or GS and low hand position you see is to help clear gates. Racers pressure and impulse the ski above the fall line much more than a rec skier and instructors aren't usually skilled enough to impulse the skis at the top of the turn or need to. Instructors tend to grind at the belly of the turn and racers release pressure to keep up speed, etc etc... Desired outcome dictates Inputs in a lot of ways which in turns into a "style" or "look"
BASI does get stick a bit for still having a certain robotic form that was in fashion years ago. Swiss instructors on a whole are much more free and relaxed.
Harry (who I spent more that a few weeks trying to pass our ET's ) in the Altitude vid has quite a wide stance for instance in the videos and I think that was him using a BASI form from years ago... At that point Im not sure he had his ISTD but may have done. The other guys are L3's I think
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So I think (inspired by @rjs ) that we can classify short turns into three complimentary camps: Ski racer, Ski instructor, punter. Arguably the instructors job is the hardest, needing to demonstrate all three when necessary!
Some very interesting points above, including possibly the first ever reported example of the British being described as ‘robotic’ in comparison to the ‘free and relaxed’ Swiss
P.s. @skimottaret, I noticed that skiers very wide stance too!
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 4-01-22 19:15; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Interesting topic...
A few comments.
1) World cup racers are at a whole different level (technical and physical) from even a BASI L3 or L4.
2) Yes, BASI shorts turns look a bit funky. Not a clean carve. However not everyone doing BASI courses will be on Slalom skis
3) If you can pull it off then a pure race carve would almost certainly meet BASI criteria ?
4) People get a bit snobby about carving. However there is much more to skiing.
I have seen plenty good racers flail in powder or bumps.
kitenski wrote:
More up to date BASI L3 video
That is a *much* better video that the one linked in first post!
Some very nice skiing & turns. But yes, deliberately not a fast / pure carve like a racer might make.
FWIW : the person demo-ing those BASI turns is a very good ex-racer.
Old Fartbag wrote:
@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. Increased control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though.
Very good observation / post!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Interesting topic...
A few comments.
1) World cup racers are at a whole different level (technical and physical) from even a BASI L3 or L4.
2) Yes, BASI shorts turns look a bit funky. Not a clean carve. However not everyone doing BASI courses will be on Slalom skis
3) If you can pull it off then a pure race carve would almost certainly meet BASI criteria ?
4) People get a bit snobby about carving. However there is much more to skiing.
I have seen plenty good racers flail in powder or bumps.
kitenski wrote:
More up to date BASI L3 video
That is a *much* better video that the one linked in first post!
Some very nice skiing & turns. But yes, deliberately not a fast / pure carve like a racer might make.
FWIW : the person demo-ing those BASI turns is a very good ex-racer.
Old Fartbag wrote:
@JamesHJ, It looks to me from those videos, that racers use more "Flex to Transition", which stops almost all upward movement - which gives earlier snow contact and allows even tighter turns, control and speed.
It "may" be, that BASI ski with the goal of teaching skiers outside of the race course, where the goal is slightly different ie. Increased control through a more rounded turn and not going as fast as possible from A to B. Could be wrong, though.
Very good observation / post!
Another interesting response! I am very snobby about carving, but also a teacher in (very) different circumstances. If I was a ski trainer, I’d definitely fail a student who tried to show perfect carved race turns rather than those prescribed in the course.
I remember getting rather cool feedback from a BASI trainer years ago. The drill was little twisty turns as a lead in to moguls. I couldn’t do it for toffee!
As an aside, physical shape is very important. I was skiing at New Year and finished one day at 11 a.m after a lesson. Completely ball bagged. Fortunately the top button on my salopettes held together under the strain
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@JamesHJ, what was the cool feedback?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kitenski wrote:
@JamesHJ, what was the cool feedback?
Sorry, I meant ‘cool’ in the sense of being distinctly unimpressed
I believe the words used to describe my skiing were “So so”
[actually, it is very good teaching skills to be able to tell which students relish direct feedback, like me.]
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
JamesHJ wrote:
I’d definitely fail a student who tried to show perfect carved race turns rather than those prescribed in the course.
the criteria are sufficiently open ended (.. grip from fall-line, effective posture, variety of corridor width) than a clean carve could pass.
though no doubt a BASI trainer might ask you to deliberately tune down the performance ?
I’d definitely fail a student who tried to show perfect carved race turns rather than those prescribed in the course.
the criteria are sufficiently open ended (.. grip from fall-line, effective posture, variety of corridor width) than a clean carve could pass.
though no doubt a BASI trainer might ask you to deliberately tune down the performance ?
I do vaguely recall chair lift gossip of ex-racers failing L1 for said reasons. Who knows if it is true though!
I’ve definitely got grumpier as I have got older, so I’d tend to regard demonstrations as an opportunity to show that you understood the task, rather than showing off!
Tbh, I never really believed it at the time. It was a pair of punters recounting the story. Probably made them feel better
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The main difference I see between the first BASI video and how racers ski is that the BASI lot are not keeping their pelvises square to their skis.
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After all it is free
rjs wrote:
The main difference I see between the first BASI video and how racers ski is that the BASI lot are not keeping their pelvises square to their skis.
But do you think it is the legs making the upper body do the twist, or vice versa?
I’m interested, as there are those who claim that only the legs matter in skiing.
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@JamesHJ, Try it yourself. I think you will find that you have to actively rotate your pelvis to make it happen.
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rjs wrote:
@JamesHJ, Try it yourself. I think you will find that you have to actively rotate your pelvis to make it happen.
JamesHJ wrote:
But do you think it is the legs making the upper body do the twist, or vice versa?
To my eye it is the rounder turn shape that is the main difference (resulting in pelvis needing to turn).
Hips locked down fall line, leading to COM taking shorter line, may feel normal to racers : but it needs to be trained.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Hips locked down fall line, leading to COM taking shorter line, may feel normal to racers : but it needs to be trained.
It won't feel normal to racers, they don't lock their hips down the fall line.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rjs wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Hips locked down fall line, leading to COM taking shorter line, may feel normal to racers : but it needs to be trained.
It won't feel normal to racers, they don't lock their hips down the fall line.
Apology : Messy terminology. However I don't think the racers are keeping "hips square to ski" either (as suggested above). There is rotational seperation.
As I see it : the primary difference in videos above (BASI Vs racer) seems to be the rounder turn shape ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap wrote:
However I don't think / see the racers are keeping "hips square to ski" either (as suggested above).
Look harder.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
However I don't think / see the racers are keeping "hips square to ski" either (as suggested above).
Look harder.
Look where ? When ?
In a short turn the upper body will travel straight down hill / fall line. The skis are deflected to either side in each turn. I wouldn't describe that as "hips square to ski". Even though skis are carving a degree of rotational seperation (which comes from head of femur) is required.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
In a short turn the upper body will travel straight down hill / fall line. The skis are deflected to either side in each turn. I wouldn't describe that as "hips square to ski". Even though skis are carving a degree of rotational seperation (which comes from head of femur) is required.
A racer will separate at the waist, upper body does travel straight down the fall line, the pelvis tracks round square to the skis. We teach this to really small kids when they start race training.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Jeezo, I just went to look for some of Ron Lemaster's photos, and apparently he was killed in a collision with a snowboarder in Dec:
@JamesHJ, There was a thread here when it was announced.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
In a short turn the upper body will travel straight down hill / fall line. The skis are deflected to either side in each turn. I wouldn't describe that as "hips square to ski". Even though skis are carving a degree of rotational seperation (which comes from head of femur) is required.
A racer will separate at the waist, upper body does travel straight down the fall line, the pelvis tracks round square to the skis. We teach this to really small kids when they start race training.
Agree : Upper body straight down hill (in short turns) is a simple concept suitable for small kids.
What I question is that this means "pelvis tracks square to skis".
The rotational separation required has to come from the head of femur.
Which means pelvis (and upper body) has to travel "square to fall-line" (or as close to possible).
Im with RJS on this one... and it is key to the difference in how racers and instructors ski shorts. Look again at the WC video and watch what the hip joint is doing on all of those skiers, men and women. Look at it closely and tell me if there hips are square to the skis or not. then compare to all the yoootube videos of instructors making hero turns on flat perfect groomers or the Austrian instructor video (0:52 run) above where they are trying to keep the pelvis calm and use loads of femur steering. the turns get very checky, punchy and aren't carved at all.
common misconception and I hear this all the time from instructors who don't understand how performance skiing works. Femur steering has its place, not generally in a race course when the athlete has the edges engaged and is arcing a turn looking for speed.
I agree with RJS on "A racer will separate at the waist, upper body does travel straight down the fall line, the pelvis tracks round square to the skis."
The Canadian race federation calls this type of separation "coil" and that makes much more sense to me when trying to ski fast than femur steering which is slow.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have to agree with @skimottaret / rjs here, watching the BASI vids I think of myself (as a poor second class skier). The [ex]racers look much more like my daughter and how I would like to be skiing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
common misconception and I hear this all the time from instructors who don't understand how performance skiing works. Femur steering has its place, not generally in a race course when the athlete has the edges engaged and is arcing a turn looking for speed.
..
The Canadian race federation calls this type of separation "coil" and that makes much more sense to me when trying to ski fast than femur steering which is slow.
Thanks : that explanation makes sense.
Certainly the racers are using more lateral movements to ensure clean carve. The BASI turns have more vertical movement and rotational seperation. The concept of "coil" not something taught in BASI, nor I suspect most instructor associations?
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musher wrote:
I have to agree with @skimottaret / rjs here, watching the BASI vids I think of myself (as a poor second class skier). The [ex]racers look much more like my daughter and how I would like to be skiing.
Fwiw : I don't believe the video in first post is representive.
This one better : some very nice skiing?
@Haggis_Trap, "coil" was a term I heard when on a race coaching course delivered by a CSCF guy and It resonates with me as I tend to ski very square to the skis. If people want to carve better I for one don't spend a lot of time on Braquage type drills
A wise, experienced race coach once told me that when skiing gates you should keep your pelvis as square to the skis for as long as you can... This keeps your legs and body in a strong position.
Countering of the hip joint should be a CONSEQUENCE of high edge angles and not an intentional move. That is bio mechanically correct as our our shins are forced into a fixed forward lean and as the inner leg shortens the pelvis must rotate.
FAQ
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) in the Altitude vid has quite a wide stance for instance in the videos and I think that was him using a BASI form from years ago... At that point Im not sure he had his ISTD but may have done. The other guys are L3's I think
) that we can classify short turns into three complimentary camps: Ski racer, Ski instructor, punter. Arguably the instructors job is the hardest, needing to demonstrate all three when necessary!
