I'm completely sure that is right. You can just carve MORE turns safely on a 13m radius ski than a >20m radius ski and you want to carve as many as you possibly can!
It is better for the coach/instructor too, you get to see more turns and don't have to go as far to catch up with the trainee if you are lapping with them
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs wrote:
jedster wrote:
I'm completely sure that is right. You can just carve MORE turns safely on a 13m radius ski than a >20m radius ski and you want to carve as many as you possibly can!
It is better for the coach/instructor too, you get to see more turns and don't have to go as far to catch up with the trainee if you are lapping with them
that makes complete sense!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
@JamesHJ, Any Masters racer or Coach over 40 has had to completely change how they ski. A Coach needs to be able to ski the way they want small kids to copy.
I suspect that I have spent more time amongst BASI orientated people than racing/coaching oriented types. Irrespective of the need to e.g pass the Eurotest, the former are doing something visibly different to the latter. I find the two systems quite incompatible (which I guess is an obvious result given the different outcomes aimed for).
Interesting topic, perhaps worthy of a separate discussion one day.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jedster wrote:
I think this is a great thread. In significant part because we have a very capable skier completely debunking the argument that that "my fat skis carve really well on piste"
Seriously - I'm not saying anyone on this thread argued that but it does come up quite a lot and I'm a firm believer that people who say that have the wrong definition of "carve really well"!
@BobinCH,
I'm not a ski instructor and I know from these threads that I am somewhat OK at seeing symptoms but terrible at picking root causes so treat this with a pinch of salt....
A big part of the cause will be the wrong kit!
That said I observe that you are not rolling onto your edges with conviction and not getting much edge angle. I think you are not committing to setting an edge but content to hang back and let the skis drift. It works and may be the right compromise on those skis. I know though that I would feel that I was just "getting round the mountain" rather than really skiing those pistes. Which is part of the reason that I would only be on piste on those skis as a means to travelling to the off piste that I actually wanted to ski.
Oh some people may argue that you are making short turns and therefore bound to be pivoting and drifting. They obviously don't know how much fun dynamic short carves are
Fair enough, but you’re kind of missing the point that I purposely chose steep pitches (which the video flattens) and these slopes had been rained on and hence were boilerplate. And was on wide touring skis and touring boots. So the objective was not to ski them as if on a race tuned slalom ski but to test my technique to exert the max control possible in testing conditions.
I clearly struggle at the top of both slopes to get the skis to bite and I was trying hard! But I’m not sure if they would have bitten if I put them on edge and I didn’t really want to go down on my ar5e!
As the slope flattens the edges started to bite and the skis started to carve and the rebound on these skis is very enjoyable considering they are 1500g! You can certainly carve these skis in better conditions and on less steep pitches, although of course not like on a slalom/GS ski.
I will try and find some piste skis to compare - but still doubt I would be carving on GS skis on those pitches on that snow as would exceed my speed/technique limit. Let’s see….
After all it is free
After all it is free
BobinCH wrote:
I will try and find some piste skis to compare - but still doubt I would be carving on GS skis on those pitches on that snow as would exceed my speed/technique limit. Let’s see….
IMHO the most fun ski for pistes is a de-tuned "gs-cheater".
something with a turn radius of 16-18m => half way between a SL and GS with a sensible non-race flex.
can be used for long or short turns on piste without going at 50mph.
when the snow is hard then such a ski suddenly makes skiing the pistes fun (and you get way more grip even if not carving clean arcs).
personally I find slalom skis hard work for recreational skiing all day : they are very good at short turns but otherwise limiting.
however the comments about them great for training are entirely correct.
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This is what I found in the cave:
Dynastar CR74Ti in a 184 R17 and
Stockli Y77 in a 176 R14
They both weigh a ton
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
^ those Dynastars are perfect!
sharpen the edges and away you go.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@JamesHJ,
Quote:
There is a huge difference between the things that 12 year old kids in race clubs do and e.g. the funny BASI short turns.
Curious, could you elaborate? I have taught 12 year old racers and BASI instructors and I am wondering what the perceived difference is.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
@JamesHJ,
Quote:
There is a huge difference between the things that 12 year old kids in race clubs do and e.g. the funny BASI short turns.
Curious, could you elaborate? I have taught 12 year old racers and BASI instructors and I am wondering what the perceived difference is.
Sure, would be happy to dig up some videos. I’ll try and do it later on when I have a bit more time.
In brief though, it always looked to me that the BASI short turns were rather old fashioned, with a sort of dancy swish thing going on.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
moved
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 4-01-22 15:18; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The appropriate response is:
I can't believe that's Pro: I ski so much better than that!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
OK, so here goes. Note that the following is all simply in the spirit of general discussion
Let's look at this first (WC skiers free skiing). Note the very quiet upper body, fairly low hands/upper body and the very clean carving. At least on easy terrain, most of the French ski club kids I see are skiing in this style.
Now take a look at this video (BASI L3 shorts) from say 20 s. What I see is a rather upright posture, and what I call a 'dancey' move (the music is perfect!). This is certainly related to the pole plants, and is also some how coupled to more rotational motion early in the turn. Note how the arms are widely apart, as if encircling a dancing partner
Note that the above video is from 2015. The one you posted is indeed better (and also L4), although I see similar elements. As an aside, I remember talking to some L4's around 2015 who said that BASI was discussing making the shorts more racing-like. No idea if that is true, or if it was just chairlift talk.
A few immediate thoughts:
1- I have no doubt that the average BASI bod could ski a lot more in the racing style if they wanted to/were told to. Obviously, I am looking at videos where they are trying to achieve a particular style.
2- One difference is certainly equipment. Racing kids are obviously very used to hooning around on slalom skis (R= 12-13 m). In the BASI videos, the ski radius is often up to 17-18 m, this requires more rotation to get them around I suppose. I think that the modern racing style also relies upon rather stiffer skis/boots.
3- However, the biggest difference is certainly the pole plants (why do they always look like their poles are too long btw?). This causes upper body motion and a very upright posture. Of course, this is for a reason, as it helps the recreational skier stay in control on steeper terrain. Actually, if you watch a WC slalom in slow-mo, you will also see a lot of pole planting going on, but it is done with much less of a demonstrative flick of the arm.
So yes (and IMV), there is a huge difference between the short turns done by kids in ski clubs, and those required by BASI. Is it a fair/useful comparision? Probably not, since the aims and equipment are so different. Interesting though
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@JamesHJ, perhaps cut and copy your last post to a new thread ? Not sure this drift is helping the fat ski on piste technique
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Reply moved to new thread.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 4-01-22 14:03; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@JamesHJ, unless I'm mistaken (which is entirely possible), the two videos show different things: medium radius turns in the WC free skiing video, and short turns for the BASI one. So perhaps not surprising that they are different to with more emphasis on pole plants in the BASI video.
Fair enough, but you’re kind of missing the point that I purposely chose steep pitches (which the video flattens) and these slopes had been rained on and hence were boilerplate. And was on wide touring skis and touring boots. So the objective was not to ski them as if on a race tuned slalom ski but to test my technique to exert the max control possible in testing conditions.
I clearly struggle at the top of both slopes to get the skis to bite and I was trying hard! But I’m not sure if they would have bitten if I put them on edge and I didn’t really want to go down on my ar5e!
As the slope flattens the edges started to bite and the skis started to carve and the rebound on these skis is very enjoyable considering they are 1500g! You can certainly carve these skis in better conditions and on less steep pitches, although of course not like on a slalom/GS ski.
I will try and find some piste skis to compare - but still doubt I would be carving on GS skis on those pitches on that snow as would exceed my speed/technique limit. Let’s see….
You are skiing like a punter on the flat bits as well.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@skimottaret, I'm not getting paid to flatter his ego. I don't get the sense from the bit I quoted that he sees the importance of working on technique on easy slopes.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rjs wrote:
@skimottaret, I'm not getting paid to flatter his ego. I don't get the sense from the bit I quoted that he sees the importance of working on technique on easy slopes.
You shouldn't really need paying for basic manners.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@clarky999, OK, the videos look great.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It’s worse when your wife tells you that you ski like a punter believe me
#punterskiingmatters
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@BobinCH, would be very very interesting if you could ski and video the same sections on those Dynastars in similarly hard pistes if at all possible....
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well me and the Mrs are off to buy some dedicated piste skis if only as a sacrifice to the snow God's.
And I'll dig my Alpine boots out as well, think that might help as well
I was skiing yesterday using that dragging the pole technique, seemed good, but touring boots on oldish piste skis.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
kitenski wrote:
@BobinCH, would be very very interesting if you could ski and video the same sections on those Dynastars in similarly hard pistes if at all possible....
Yes will get back to this as do very much appreciate the tips. Been a bit distracted the last couple of days…
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Poster: A snowHead
