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Piste technique

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Using the bulletproof conditions to work on a bit of piste technique on the touring rig. Doesn’t feel/look quite right? Holding poles too high/poor pole plant? Weight not quite centred? Any ideas


http://youtube.com/v/25ZeWV1uGIk


http://youtube.com/v/TFNwU7SC0J4
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Quote:

Any ideas


Be less critical of yourself. Little Angel

Weight more forward - flex those ankles!
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For a 1 week a year punter you look ok.
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Usual issue... Portrait!
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AL9000 wrote:
Quote:

Any ideas


Be less critical of yourself. Little Angel

Weight more forward - flex those ankles!


Yep it’s a battle to get further forward. Need to get in some gates!
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BobinCH wrote:
Using the bulletproof conditions to work on a bit of piste technique on the touring rig. Doesn’t feel/look quite right? Holding poles too high/poor pole plant? Weight not quite centred? Any ideas


Primarily : Wrong equipment!
The technique and movements look OK to my eye.

You are trying to do grippy short slalom turns on a wide ski (with a turn radius > 20m?). It is inevitable the ski is going to skid. Which makes matching the movements you are trying to make with turn shape really hard.

The best thing you can do to improve ski technique is to spend time on a proper piste ski. Ideally a GS-cheater ski with turn radius half way between SL and GS. Once you learn how to ski that on rails the same skills can then be applied back to the fat skis. You will be amazed how much more grip you get on polished piste from the right ski.

Fwiw : I write as former fat-ski commando who spent a decade on > 100mm. It was a lot of fun but not great for basic technique. Eventually went 'back to school' with BASI. I used to think piste skis were "ghey" : but was wrong. They can be a lot of fun (and much better for learning skills).


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 2-01-22 16:04; edited 1 time in total
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@Haggis_Trap, thanks. Makes a lot of sense. When I did my season I was quite good in the GS gates but when I tried again a couple of years back I was all over the place!
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I agree with @Haggis_Trap.

You need to get the Tip to engage at start the turn....not easy if there is a Tip Rocker. It can help to finish the turn, with more weight slightly back of centre ie. using the rear of the ski....harder if there is a Tail Rocker. You need Piste Skis with razor sharp edges.

IME. Without this, you are better subtly steering the skis (without trying to get the edges to bite - as they won't) and scrubbing off speed where the terrain helps ie. small bumps, or on the snow that has been scraped off by others, which is often right along the edges. This requires scanning the run and looking well ahead.

Certainly not easy with the wrong kit and lots of struggling skiers.
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@BobinCH, Maybe start with trying to reduce the amount of upper body movement, you look to me to be using that to initiate a turn.
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These are 112mm rockered touring skis but they are still a lot of fun on piste (when you can engage the edge) as they have a surprising amount of pop. It is hard to grip on steeper boilerplate but that’s also a good test of technique because every mistake is punished. Having the balls to take a more direct route and really get on the edges would be interesting but would need helmet and an empty piste!
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BobinCH wrote:
These are 112mm rockered touring skis....

You have little choice but to switch on "Survival Mode". Toofy Grin
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rjs wrote:
For a 1 week a year punter you look ok.


Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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@Haggis_Trap,
Quote:

Fwiw : I write as former fat-ski commando…


Wrong C-word Madeye-Smiley
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----
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BobinCH wrote:
These are 112mm rockered touring skis but they are still a lot of fun on piste (when you can engage the edge) ...


^ that is kind of like saying piste skis can still be fun in powder.
technically true : but ... wink

AL9000 wrote:

Wrong C-word Madeye-Smiley


top troll! Laughing
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I am doing the same as you currently - trying to ski down boilerplate pistes in the Grand Massif on a pair of 120mm Bent Chetlers in my La Sportiva Synchros. It is fun… Have found that the more I move my knees as in to load the skis and also to absorb their energy, the easier it has been. Also, an ESF friend suggested a slightly wider - as little as 5cm - stance, which has also helped on icy slopes. Also accepting the limitations of the planks - they will never be the same as my old Atomic GS 9.22
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Haggis_Trap wrote:


AL9000 wrote:

Wrong C-word Madeye-Smiley


top troll! Laughing


he must have been thinking "champion" wink Little Angel
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
These are 112mm rockered touring skis but they are still a lot of fun on piste (when you can engage the edge) ...


^ that is kind of like saying piste skis can still be fun in powder.
technically true : but ... wink


It was more in comparison to other narrower touring skis that were less fun on the piste. I think these are the closest to a 1 ski tourable quiver I’ve found so far.

But I would like to find that magic potion that would translate to skiing them with perfect balance, and suspect some gates training would probably help. I notice the same issue that I can get a bit back seat skiing in powder, especially when it gets steeper, so would help there too. And also need to tidy up arms/pole plants. It is hard to change skiing technique though!!!
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@BobinCH, because I'm no instructor, I've refrained from comment, but since you mention it, ...

... the arms and poles are certainly a little lively
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I have decided that I ski better with conventional poles, rather than trendy long grip touring poles. To my mind a normal pole pivots better in the hand than the touring pole when you are holding it half way down to have the right length. I think this encourages a more fluid pole swing from the wrist with less arm movement. Evidently there are some excellent skiers who use the A2-16 style of poles, but this is just what I have found. Maybe something to consider?
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JackSkier wrote:
I have decided that I ski better with conventional poles, rather than trendy long grip touring poles. To my mind a normal pole pivots better in the hand than the touring pole when you are holding it half way down to have the right length. I think this encourages a more fluid pole swing from the wrist with less arm movement. Evidently there are some excellent skiers who use the A2-16 style of poles, but this is just what I have found. Maybe something to consider?


Yes I think you are right. I love these poles as they are great for touring but have normal length poles when just skiing.
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@BobinCH, I would focus on posture and your movements when on piste. It looks to me that as you initiate the turn you make an up and back move with the upper body resulting in the outside ski breaking away in the bottom of the turn. More noticeable on the first video on your right footed turns. Slo mo the video on Youtube and focus your eye on those turns and you will see what I mean. Better on the second.

Ask your video person to keep filming you as you go past and capture a few more turns to hopefully see your for aft position as you go by the camera and this popping up and back will be more apparent.

I would try slowing all your movements down and extend your the transition until you can feel when the new big toe edge engages. I would have you exaggerate your topple onto the new edge and promote projecting down the hill on the steeper sections. Remember on piste you aren't using as much pressure to make the edge change but rather engaging the edges and getting them to turn above the fall line. Practice with the wider skis by taking a bit more time to roll from the little toe edge to the big toe. On piste see if you can find and use the edges to turn as opposed to building pressure as you would do off piste.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 3-01-22 12:06; edited 1 time in total
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I've been thinking a lot about my own piste technique lately, which I've definitely noticed has been negatively affected by spending all my time on fat skis!

For me, I've noticed I tend to incline/bank too much into turns rather than angulate (I let my upper body fall too far inside the turn, and I think I push too hard against my outside leg to pressure (only) that ski. I think both problems are interlinked with each other, but the result is compromised ability to achieve high edge angles and thus compromised grip on hard slopes despite high pressure on the outside ski (plus a bit of an a-frame).

In your second video it looks to me like you have similar problems - I suspect in both of us it's because we like to 'ski the bases' in 3D snow as much as possible as opposed to riding along the edges.

Some drills to try/videos about it:

1.
http://youtube.com/v/k7ZOC_5YFqs

2.
http://youtube.com/v/jCiIzxLXPeE

3. From 7:57


http://youtube.com/v/r_o3A66ujEE

Scrolling down here to '6 Common Carving Mistakes' may give some useful thoughts too: https://getcarv.com/blog/how-to-carve

---------

While it doesn't translate to great piste skiing I still think that 'ski the bases' approach off-piste and especially in powder is a really fun way to ski.

One skier who I think does both really well, and actually switches between them rather than just doing the same everywhere, is Ari Tricomi. She skis powder and offpiste like a surfer or snowboarder, and to me at least it just looks so joyful. But then onpiste she gets back on her edges and skis like a racer (as you'd expect with a WC rather for a mother!).

You see both approaches in this (really cool!) film (much of it shot at tiiiiny resort called Glungezer right next to Innsbruck):


http://youtube.com/v/LFQzX3HKiP8


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Mon 3-01-22 17:39; edited 2 times in total
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skimottaret wrote:
@BobinCH, I would focus on posture and your movements when on piste. It looks to me that as you initiate the turn you make an up and back move with the upper body resulting in the outside ski breaking away in the bottom of the turn. More noticeable on the first video. Better on the second.

Ask your video person to keep filming you as you go past and capture a few more turns to hopefully see your for aft position as you go by the camera and this popping up and back will be more apparent.

I would try slowing all your movements down and extend your the transition until you can feel when the new big toe edge engages. I would have you exaggerate your topple onto the new edge and promote projecting down the hill on the steeper sections. Remember on piste you aren't using as much pressure to make the edge change but rather engaging the edges and getting them to turn above the fall line. Practice with the wider skis by taking a bit more time to roll from the little toe edge to the big toe. On piste see if you can find and use the edges to turn as opposed to building pressure as you would do off piste.

I think this is on the money and makes logical sense....and a lot easier to see when somebody knowledgeable/trained points it out, as it is subtle.

Spending a lot of time Off Piste, on wide skis, is very likely to cause problems On Piste, as the small adaptions used in the Deep Stuff, will be unhelpful skiing On Piste.....and problems will be exaggerated in icy conditions. Likewise, the skills needed for Piste skiing, such as pressurising the Tips; pushing Forward/Across and balancing on the Outside ski, are not that helpful Off Piste.

As an interested amateur sleuth, spotting mistakes in skiers with less skill than myself, is one thing. Spotting very subtle mistakes in skiers more experienced than myself, is quite another.
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@skimottaret, @clarky999, @Old Fartbag, thanks for the tips!
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Old Fartbag wrote:
As an interested amateur sleuth, spotting mistakes in skiers with less skill than myself, is one thing. Spotting very subtle mistakes in skiers more experienced than myself, is quite another.

I find it helps to download the video to my PC so that I can freeze-frame through it.
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rjs wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
As an interested amateur sleuth, spotting mistakes in skiers with less skill than myself, is one thing. Spotting very subtle mistakes in skiers more experienced than myself, is quite another.

I find it helps to download the video to my PC so that I can freeze-frame through it.

Good idea.

It still takes an experienced eye.
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or just watch on YouTube directly and slow playback speed down... but at the end of the day you need to know what to look for...
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skimottaret wrote:
or just watch on YouTube directly and slow playback speed down... but at the end of the day you need to know what to look for...

It takes a certain Foolhardiness to assess skiing, with Instructors potentially assessing your assessment....but I like to live dangerously. Toofy Grin
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BobinCH wrote:

It was more in comparison to other narrower touring skis that were less fun on the piste. I think these are the closest to a 1 ski tourable quiver I’ve found so far.


IMHO the reason rockered skis are better on piste is the shorter effective edge length?
Which makes them much easier to "slarve / pivot" sideways.
However because you cant engage the tip early in the turn they are very tricky to carve cleanly.

BobinCH wrote:
But I would like to find that magic potion that would translate to skiing them with perfect balance, and suspect some gates training would probably help. I notice the same issue that I can get a bit back seat skiing in powder, especially when it gets steeper, so would help there too. And also need to tidy up arms/pole plants. It is hard to change skiing technique though!!!


Yes! Race training is great for ski technique.
GS is good because you can focus more on ski-technique rather than the gates.

clarky999 wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about my own piste technique lately, which I've definitely noticed has been negatively affected by spending all my time on fat skis!


Back in 2014 Duncan Freshwater diplomatically described my skiing as "skillful skidding" Laughing
IMHO people adapt to the tools / skis that they use most often.
Therefore your technique (exactly like mine) will have adapted over time to become optimised for fat-skis.

However : If you want to get better at carving and piste then the only way to learn is on the correct ski.
The skills acquired can then be translated back to the fat skis.
A 100mm ski is wider than your foot - which inevitably changes the blend of skills (edge, rotation) used to make it turn.

clarky999 wrote:
For me, I've noticed I tend to incline/bank too much into turns rather than angulate (I let my upper body fall too far inside the turn, and I think I push too hard against my outside leg to pressure (only) that ski.


It is much easier to balance on the outside ski when using a piste ski with appropriate turn radius!
In the videos you link they are all using piste skis for a good reason wink

clarky999 wrote:
I think both problems are interlinked with each other,


Almost certainly.

clarky999 wrote:
but the result is compromised ability to achieve high edge angles and thus compromised grip on hard slopes despite high pressure on the outside ski (plus a bit of an a-frame).


Pressure before fall-line = more speed / grip.
Pressure after fall-line = skidded skis.

Pushing hard on outside skis is classic mistake that will result in a skid.
Think of pressure as something to be controlled during turn rather than applied.
What creates a sharp turn is the edge angle rather than pressure.
It doesnt take much force to bend a ski into reverse camber while on edge *if* you are balanced over outside edge properly.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 3-01-22 19:21; edited 1 time in total
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Also : The Projected Productions videos are very good.
Subscribed for December and was watching this last week.


http://youtube.com/v/rN3jYk6uVk0
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Yes! Race training is great for ski technique.
GS is good because you can focus more on ski-technique rather than the gates.

I feel that it is easier to teach and learn using SL skis, you don't need as much space and speeds are lower.
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rjs wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Yes! Race training is great for ski technique.
GS is good because you can focus more on ski-technique rather than the gates.

I feel that it is easier to teach and learn using SL skis, you don't need as much space and speeds are lower.


Interesting!
I agree that SL skis are easier to learn proper techniques on.

But.... My personal opinion is that skiing slalom is harder.
Primarily because I spend brain power cross blocking the gates (rather than focussing on how to ski properly!).
GS seems more naturally suited to my skill set - basically a tall-dude used to making larger radius turns.
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@Haggis_Trap, I wouldn't teach technique in a race course, I would teach it on a really gentle slope with no gates.
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rjs wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, I wouldn't teach technique in a race course, I would teach it on a really gentle slope with no gates.


In your experience, how many adult learners genuinely manage to learn the proper racing style?

There is a huge difference between the things that 12 year old kids in race clubs do and e.g. the funny BASI short turns.

I’d love to know if some older skiers manage it, or if I am wasting a huge amount of time on said gentle slopes Puzzled

P.s ex-racers often say that there is no point skiing gates until that style is mastered. However they forget how much fun it is for old farts, and that we simply don’t have any time left to do otherwise snowHead


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 3-01-22 20:54; edited 1 time in total
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I think this is a great thread. In significant part because we have a very capable skier completely debunking the argument that that "my fat skis carve really well on piste" Very Happy Very Happy

Seriously - I'm not saying anyone on this thread argued that but it does come up quite a lot and I'm a firm believer that people who say that have the wrong definition of "carve really well"!

@BobinCH,

I'm not a ski instructor and I know from these threads that I am somewhat OK at seeing symptoms but terrible at picking root causes so treat this with a pinch of salt....
A big part of the cause will be the wrong kit!
That said I observe that you are not rolling onto your edges with conviction and not getting much edge angle. I think you are not committing to setting an edge but content to hang back and let the skis drift. It works and may be the right compromise on those skis. I know though that I would feel that I was just "getting round the mountain" rather than really skiing those pistes. Which is part of the reason that I would only be on piste on those skis as a means to travelling to the off piste that I actually wanted to ski.

Oh some people may argue that you are making short turns and therefore bound to be pivoting and drifting. They obviously don't know how much fun dynamic short carves are Very Happy
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rjs wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Yes! Race training is great for ski technique.
GS is good because you can focus more on ski-technique rather than the gates.

I feel that it is easier to teach and learn using SL skis, you don't need as much space and speeds are lower.


I'm completely sure that is right. You can just carve MORE turns safely on a 13m radius ski than a >20m radius ski and you want to carve as many as you possibly can!
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BTW it is not just short radius that helps but also a narrower ski. It is MUCH easier to roll gently but progressively onto an edge that is INSIDE the line of your boot than OUTSIDE it. If it is outside then your weight is levering UP off the new edge as you go over onto it and it is far harder to do that smoothly on hard snow (at least in my experience and with my limitations as a skier)
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@JamesHJ, Any Masters racer or Coach over 40 has had to completely change how they ski. A Coach needs to be able to ski the way they want small kids to copy.
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jedster wrote:
BTW it is not just short radius that helps but also a narrower ski. It is MUCH easier to roll gently but progressively onto an edge that is INSIDE the line of your boot than OUTSIDE it. If it is outside then your weight is levering UP off the new edge as you go over onto it and it is far harder to do that smoothly on hard snow (at least in my experience and with my limitations as a skier)

Up to the point I bought Scott The Ski (IIRC 92 waist), the widest ski I owned, was 70mm. The Scotts take noticeably longer to go from edge to edge. The OP is on skis nearly as wide again.

I enjoy the Scotts as a Piste ski, but miss a full (or piste) camber. I certainly wouldn't want to go any wider On Piste. At least the Scotts have no Tail Rocker.
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