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Skiing holiday death caused by negligent instructor

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Skiing holiday death of Canterbury surgeon in 750ft fall in La Plagne, France, caused by negligent instructor

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/death-of-surgeon-in-750ft-fall-caused-by-negligent-instructo-258007/
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Awful
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From ESF web site:

CLASS 3
I have obtained Class 2 level.
I descend using basic parallel turns.
I accomplish both short and broad fast turns with control.

And he was "early" Level 3 Puzzled Confused

35 degrees couloir
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Just read this on Daily Mail and was about to start the thread. This is awful and reminds us all how easily things can go wrong in the mountains. It seems the chap overestimated his ability (most of us here have done this) but shows that ski instructors have a duty of care to keep customers safe.
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Crying or Very sad Sobering. 35 degree couloir with hard-packed, icy snow, and the instructor took a client who was only just reaching the level the ski school describe as intermediate. That doesn't seem sensible, under any circumstances.
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Misleading copy. It wasn't CAUSED by a negligent instructor. The guy himself asked to move up a group apparently and then apparently skied out of control. An instructor isn't a bulletproof vest. Plus you know - grown ups. I'd bet up to 50% of the very best and safest skiers in some resorts would fail a cannabis test too despite the sensationalism.

However I'd have taken a hard pass at a 35 deg couloir at that level of experience (and probably still today if it looked icy) so it doesn't sound like the best terrain selection.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 25-11-21 13:54; edited 1 time in total
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@Oleski, indeed.

I know it's difficult to say "no" to a client who is very keen to ski something which you believe to be too risky, but terrain in which a fall could lead to a 750 ft slide with rocky outcrops should not be a finely balanced decision.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Plus you know - grown ups.
That's not a defence in law, as this instructor has discovered.
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rob@rar wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Plus you know - grown ups.
That's not a defence in law, as this instructor has discovered.


No and I suspect it was terrain selection relative to the group's abilities that prompted the involutary manslaughter conviction.
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Also that he tested positive for cannabis use which (it was argued) affected his judgement.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Misleading copy. It wasn't CAUSED by a negligent instructor. The guy himself asked to move up a group apparently and then apparently skied out of control..


Isn't that exactly where the instructor should be saying your not good enough to move up?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
No and I suspect it was terrain selection relative to the group's abilities that prompted the involutary manslaughter conviction.
Sure. Terrain selection is the No.1 priority when teaching, for all sorts of reasons. Nothing else comes close.
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People who think, as this poor chap's wife said in court, that they are "very experienced" can be very difficult to convince otherwise.

Can anyone find a link to the original French manslaughter case?
I think the basis of the conviction will probably be that the guy said he was experienced but presumably
was visibly not so, hence the instructor should have thrown him out or gone somewhere with less objective risk.
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 You know it makes sense.
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Skimum1 wrote:
Also that he tested positive for cannabis use which (it was argued) affected his judgement.


Does it make any difference? Instructor (and school) is under legal obligation to make sure students ski within their level.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, but the instructor was found guilty and again guilty on appeal according to the article provided and it says it was the instructor who promoted the victim into the advanced group. .


“Philippe Drigo was under the influence of cannabis when he agreed to put urology consultant William Choi in an advanced level group”
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I've done a level 3 ESF course. We never skied anything like that, especially on day 1.
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rob@rar wrote:
Crying or Very sad Sobering. 35 degree couloir with hard-packed, icy snow, and the instructor took a client who was only just reaching the level the ski school describe as intermediate. That doesn't seem sensible, under any circumstances.


Blimey. I would consider myself an advance skier, and I would balk at attempting that.
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Where is Losset couloir anyway? Did they mean Rosset? This is complete madness, especially if it was icy and packed


http://youtube.com/v/taZQmyrDOSg


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 25-11-21 14:24; edited 1 time in total
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@ster, yeah but there are lazy journalistic cliches when it comes to recreational drugs or alcohol which might not practically have been a factor at all. The intent is to imply that this froggy was a complete stoner and simply said whatever maan while taking the chap to the couloir of certain doom. He could equally have been hopped up on excessive espressos and gauloises or been preoccupied with flirting with a pretty girl.

The real point is that for industrial ski schools - group selection is often pretty arbitrary and if Choi had been outskiing the previous group and showed no obvious incompetence on piste or in lighter off piste terrain what reason would there be not to promote him? But a good ski instructor should have the skill to assess pupils on the fly and make appropriate adjustments to route choice or tasks as required or if necessary boot an underskilled pupil from the class under the do no harm mantra. It's also a handy reminder to us all to keep our egos in check and that it's better to moan about a day having been too tame than be in a bodybag.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Misleading copy. It wasn't CAUSED by a negligent instructor. The guy himself asked to move up a group apparently and then apparently skied out of control. An instructor isn't a bulletproof vest. Plus you know - grown ups. I'd bet up to 50% of the very best and safest skiers in some resorts would fail a cannabis test too despite the sensationalism.

However I'd have taken a hard pass at a 35 deg couloir at that level of experience (and probably still today if it looked icy) so it doesn't sound like the best terrain selection.


I think he did cause the death, indirectly, that's what he was found guilty of, the manslaughter of the poor guy. The fact he was taking drugs and skiing is completely unacceptable, more so while instructing. It is irrelevant wither or not lots of other people do it. The drug taking is an aggravating factor.
It's debatable if the victim should even have been skiing off piste with his skill level.
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Anybody know La plagne well? I'm looking on fatmap and can only find Rosset couloir - no Losset.
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nevis1003 wrote:


I think he did cause the death, indirectly, that's what he was found guilty of, the manslaughter of the poor guy. The fact he was taking drugs and skiing is completely unacceptable, more so while instructing. It is irrelevant wither or not lots of other people do it. The drug taking is an aggravating factor.
It's debatable if the victim should even have been skiing off piste with his skill level.


Maybe it's semantics but I say a number of factors contributed to the death of which the negligence of the instructor was deemed sufficient to warrant a manslaughter conviction but accidents generally involve contributions from more than one party - if you're not standing in the road the chances of being run over by the car where the driver didn't put the handbrake on are lower etc.

As for drugs - many presciption drugs carry warnings about possible drowziness etc, sugar & caffeine crashes are possible etc Skiing has a big drinking culture attached. There are many behaviours we could determine are unacceptable but probably very few paragons of virtue to operate lifts/instruct/occupy the slopes economically if we apply too high a standard. I find the assertion that he was under the influence of cannabis interesting given the long time traces remain in the system for testing purposes.

I've no interest in defending the guy. Plainly a French court was satisfied. Just struck me as typically lazy journalism and missing the important balance that we can all do more to protect ourselves from such "evildoers".
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I think its harder for the ski instructors these days. Modern equipment sometimes makes inexperienced skiers to look quite good on flattish terrain.
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Oleski wrote:
Where is Losset couloir anyway? Did they mean Rosset? This is complete madness, especially if it was icy and packed


http://youtube.com/v/taZQmyrDOSg


I was wondering that. IIRC that Rosset area has a number of lines none of which are exactly easy but aren’t all as tough as that one. Not somewhere for an intermediate unless you have really forgiving snow conditions
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@Arno, I think you are correct. One YouTube video shows a much wider snow field, though still relatively steep.
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jellylegs wrote:
I think its harder for the ski instructors these days. Modern equipment sometimes makes inexperienced skiers to look quite good on flattish terrain.


Harder still if the instructor is on the sauce or in this case the weed.
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As the coroner said more than an accident but manslaughter makes it sound terrible. Obviously it is terrible as he died but the reporting certainly makes it seems worse. A bad decision from the instructor but the outcome so far is probably enough punishment.

If the punishment is harsh we can expect a reluctance amongst schools to challenge our ability even when it’s perfectly safe. I know that most lessons focus on improving basics on easy terrain but it would be terrible if that’s all they could be.
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This isn't about cannabis, its about poor judgment. An instructor taking anyone, or caving to pressure to take a non-expert to a place where they could die if they fall is insane.

Cannabis affects you for several hours, but remains detectable for around 30 days. If he got high last night, no problem. If he got high before the lesson, see first sentence.
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Looks like it was Rosset. Was discussed here at the time of the incident.

Its been a while since I skied la Plagne, somewhere I once heard described as a flat resort for Parisian gapers. Not the case. I got the impression that the ski schools took people off the Roche de Mio pretty regularly and I wonder whether there was some frog boiling going on in terms of what level of risk those in charge were willing to tolerate.

The route in question isn't *that* hard and 35 degrees is probably overcooking it. Obviously it's potentially dangerous - someone died - but it's what I would describe as an "accident slope". Almost all the time it will be fine but low probability high consequence accidents are always there.
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Maybe this? :
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2872811&highlight=rosset#2872811
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There seems to be a fair jump in terrain between the classes. Going from 'wanting to ski faster' to a 35degree couloir (where, let's face it, you will probably not be skiing faster at all).

I'm not sure if there is a reliable test to determine whether or not someone is 'under the influence' of cannabis? I'm guessing it's a term the reporter used to fit their narrative? I'm surprised that no one in the group noticed that the instructor was that baked that his judgement was impacted.
I've got nothing against anyone getting high or drunk in their own time. But, if indeed he was found to be getting high at work, he has no defence.
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The gentleman died skiing the Rosset, the part they went to ski is not a couloir, from memory they exited the piste to start the decent about 150m above the most common route. I believe he fell in the upper part before joining the "normal" Rosset route that crosses a shoulder into a wide bowl, the section is steep but you tend to be traversing rather than skiing the fall line. In compact chalky conditions he fell and couldn't self arrest, and was taken down the fall line.
I've have no intention of entering the blame debate but I've skied the same route/similar route countless times and have seen plenty of falls without incident. As you know if you're traveling at speed in compact chalky conditions and fall it can be very hard to stop.
Skiers like to be challenged and have their "comfort zone" limits pushed - that's normal but you can't get that buzz from the bunny slope forever.
Snow sports have inherent dangers and accidents do happen, when they do its very sad.
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rob@rar wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
No and I suspect it was terrain selection relative to the group's abilities that prompted the involutary manslaughter conviction.
Sure. Terrain selection is the No.1 priority when teaching, for all sorts of reasons. Nothing else comes close.

When being taught by UK Instructors - skills were imbedded on an easy slope - before upping the ante.

Very often, when taught by the ESF, it was the exact opposite, which was more likely to remove confidence. There was a kind of, "You Will learn, even if it kills you" approach. Mind you, this was a long time ago....but my worry seems, most unfortunately, to have played out in this case.
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As an instructor I can't understand that how on earth he would take his group on that kind of terrain on the first day?! No matter if your level 100.
It's totally normal that people say that they are "level 2 or level 3", but it's on you as an instructor to see what they really are..
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Charliee wrote:
The gentleman died skiing the Rosset, the part they went to ski is not a couloir, from memory they exited the piste to start the decent about 150m above the most common route. I believe he fell in the upper part before joining the "normal" Rosset route that crosses a shoulder into a wide bowl, the section is steep but you tend to be traversing rather than skiing the fall line. In compact chalky conditions he fell and couldn't self arrest, and was taken down the fall line.
I've have no intention of entering the blame debate but I've skied the same route/similar route countless times and have seen plenty of falls without incident. As you know if you're traveling at speed in compact chalky conditions and fall it can be very hard to stop.
Skiers like to be challenged and have their "comfort zone" limits pushed - that's normal but you can't get that buzz from the bunny slope forever.
Snow sports have inherent dangers and accidents do happen, when they do its very sad.


Very useful to have that degree of context which simply isn't reported. I've skied many lines where the traverse exposure was far worse than the slope itself and sometimes my clenchedness on the access was not sufficently compensated by the delights beyond to want to do it ever again. No fall zones are to be avoided as much as humanly possible in my book. Really hard to do such a thing underskilled for the first time - what if you accelerate in the traverse track and haven't mastered the tip scrub etc?

Might explain the bizarre translation of "corridor" in the article - I took it to be couloir but maybe it meant route/track?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Misleading copy. It wasn't CAUSED by a negligent instructor. The guy himself asked to move up a group apparently and then apparently skied out of control. An instructor isn't a bulletproof vest. Plus you know - grown ups. I'd bet up to 50% of the very best and safest skiers in some resorts would fail a cannabis test too despite the sensationalism.

However I'd have taken a hard pass at a 35 deg couloir at that level of experience (and probably still today if it looked icy) so it doesn't sound like the best terrain selection.


It sounds like this was group lessons
The instructor would not know his ability - so would have to take it from previous instructor that he was good enough.
If he asked to be moved up & he wasn’t then it is corporate who should be at fault & possibly the previous instructor for masking his ability.
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Off piste on what was described as variable snow on the first for the group of intermediate skiers is incredulous
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@Mr.Egg, IME, even in group lessons, instructors have taken a judicious look at the standard of skiing of pupils new to the class.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I've skied many lines where the traverse exposure was far worse than the slope itself and sometimes my clenchedness on the access was not sufficently compensated by the delights beyond to want to do it ever again.


+1 and well put!
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The run here named as Rosset is commonly known as the M25 Couloir.
The top can be tricky. The route is down, across, and then down. Both down bits are avalanche prone, especially the 2nd one.
It is certainly only sensible for expert skiers.
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