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14 Peaks Documentary - Netflix

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TheGeneralist wrote:
Quote:

They say it in the documentary, 




Right. I thought that's what you'd say. I could well be wrong, but AFAIK Messner climbed all of the 8ks in a particular style ( including no bottled oxygen)

Nims has come along and cherry picked certain of those parameters and tried to improve on them whilst ignoring the important one[s].

In order to beat Messner's record, he needs to follow the same rules, not just remove the ones he doesn't like. He's taken the 8,000m parameter, and the time paramerer and ignored the Oxygen parameter. If we reducto ad absurdum this one I'm pretty sure I could climb 14 mountains without oxygen in less than a week. Madeye-Smiley


In regards to my "it's in the film" quote I'm simply referring to them claiming 7 years is the shortest time frame to summit all 8000m peaks, and Nims did it in 7 months. I just see no reason to doubt either claim. Even if someone had done it quicker than 7 years, there's clearly been no one who did it anywhere close to 7 months, Nims record still blows the others away in terms of time so it doesn't really change much imo.

Messner doesn't have a "record". He was simply the first person to do it and happened to do it in great mountaineering style. There are no hard rules for Nims challenge as it's not a real record in comparison to something like the 100m or marathon that have universally accepted rules. That's the problem with these artificial records, that are becoming increasingly popular in the endurance world. I'm not disagreeing with you that messners achievement was better as a mountaineering feat, but that doesn't mean Nims doesn't have a record (by all means have two records with and without o2). It's a bit like kipchoges sub 2 challenge, yes they used every bit of manipulation to get him under 2 hours, but that was the goal - not doing a run under proper marathon conditions, Nims challenge is the same summit all 8k peaks as fast as possible regardless of style (although to be fair he could of had it much much easier than he actually did it!).
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Quote:

The think I'm finding bizarre about this discussion is that I don't read much but respect for, say, Jornet's record for speed ascent of Mont Blanc, etc. No one thinks it is the same thing as pushing a new hard route on a classic north face. It is a different thing that should be recognised on its own terms. Surely that is the same with the 14 summits?


Trouble with mont blanc is it's too easy and low (relatively of course), which makes it more of a trail run style achievement than a mountaineering one. More technically demanding speed routes get a lot more recognition, for example ueli stacks eiger climbs.

The thing is a lot of non-mountaineers do think Nims challenge is the greatest mountaineering feat ever. They are putting it above everything else as in general in sport faster = better. They maybe don't appreciate the nuances of climbing that route difficulty and style (e.g. no o2) do matter to many.

Yes I think it should be recognised as its own achievement, as I keep saying it is an incredible accomplishment I really don't mean to downplay the difficulty of it. That said it's only natural to compare new achievements to previous.

Quote:

Just enjoy the programme. It's inspiring....


Yes I enjoyed it and it is inspiring. Doesn't mean there are not interesting discussions to be had. No different to watching a football match and then discussing it afterwards.
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Post script- I didn’t say it in the thread but I thought that those who said that maybe no-one would attempt to beat this record had a point.

Proving us wrong, Kristin Harila had a go last year and managed 13 peaks but didn’t get a permit for Cho Oyu so couldn’t beat Nims’ record.

Seems she’s just summited Cho Oyu and seems to be having another go at the record. Bonkers (but in a good way)
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Underscores the initial criticism that the “record” is MORE about luck (logistic in this case) than athleticism.

Great business success story, with some mountaineering thrown in.

Entertaining just the same.
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Harila dropped the 2 Sherpas that got her up to the top of all the mountains last year. They are understandably not happy, and she's not really given a good reason why. I guess like Nims it's best to "rotate" them, else you end up sharing the record. Not a good look, especially when in Harilas case they would have been much faster without her! The fact she needs 2 says a lot by itself!

As usual explorers web offer a pretty good overview. If anything too generous to her imo:
https://explorersweb.com/kristin-harila-repeating-8000ers/

Not really sure why people sponsor her. If you want to see the record beaten would be much better funding a Sherpa team. Unfortunately, they dont have white enough skin and lots of Instagram followers.

It's all a bit fake. Like Viridiana Alvarez's claim of an "all women expedition". Yes, if you only count the westerners, and ignore the fact their are more male Sherpas than females on the team! And we all know who was doing all the hard work.

Shame the silly record chasing gets so much coverage as there are some good mountaineering expeditions this year. Team on meru, team trying to ski trango tower, batard trying to find a route on Everest avoiding Khumbu icefall, kilian hasn't announced what he's planning but ran from namche to camp 2 and back Laughing
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Looks like Harila might beat the record. She just ticked off manaslu by flying teams of Sherpas and gear up the mountain to fix lines downwards. Then had a team of Sherpas accompany her up the fixed lines to the summit.

https://explorersweb.com/controversy-harilas-team-summits-manaslu/

On one hand I actually think this method has some merit. Commercial climbing is here to stay now, and it's almost certainly a much safer and easier way for the Sherpas to fix the route. However, is it really mountaineering anymore? Throw enough money, Sherpa power, and co2 footprint at a mountain for a rich westerner to follow a fixed rope line while on bottled oxygen and her team of Sherpas carrying everything. Certainly doesn't seem in the spirit of things. Would be interested to know the total cost of her project.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Looks like Harila might beat the record. She just ticked off manaslu by flying teams of Sherpas and gear up the mountain to fix lines downwards. Then had a team of Sherpas accompany her up the fixed lines to the summit.

https://explorersweb.com/controversy-harilas-team-summits-manaslu/

On one hand I actually think this method has some merit. Commercial climbing is here to stay now, and it's almost certainly a much safer and easier way for the Sherpas to fix the route. However, is it really mountaineering anymore? Throw enough money, Sherpa power, and co2 footprint at a mountain for a rich westerner to follow a fixed rope line while on bottled oxygen and her team of Sherpas carrying everything. Certainly doesn't seem in the spirit of things. Would be interested to know the total cost of her project.

Wouldn’t the sherpas need to be acclimatized first before they got flown up high by helicopter?
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abc wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Looks like Harila might beat the record. She just ticked off manaslu by flying teams of Sherpas and gear up the mountain to fix lines downwards. Then had a team of Sherpas accompany her up the fixed lines to the summit.

https://explorersweb.com/controversy-harilas-team-summits-manaslu/

On one hand I actually think this method has some merit. Commercial climbing is here to stay now, and it's almost certainly a much safer and easier way for the Sherpas to fix the route. However, is it really mountaineering anymore? Throw enough money, Sherpa power, and co2 footprint at a mountain for a rich westerner to follow a fixed rope line while on bottled oxygen and her team of Sherpas carrying everything. Certainly doesn't seem in the spirit of things. Would be interested to know the total cost of her project.

Wouldn’t the sherpas need to be acclimatized first before they got flown up high by helicopter?


Yes, they will have been working on other 8000m peaks during the spring climbing season so already acclimatised.
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boarder2020 wrote:
abc wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Looks like Harila might beat the record. She just ticked off manaslu by flying teams of Sherpas and gear up the mountain to fix lines downwards. Then had a team of Sherpas accompany her up the fixed lines to the summit.

https://explorersweb.com/controversy-harilas-team-summits-manaslu/

On one hand I actually think this method has some merit. Commercial climbing is here to stay now, and it's almost certainly a much safer and easier way for the Sherpas to fix the route. However, is it really mountaineering anymore? Throw enough money, Sherpa power, and co2 footprint at a mountain for a rich westerner to follow a fixed rope line while on bottled oxygen and her team of Sherpas carrying everything. Certainly doesn't seem in the spirit of things. Would be interested to know the total cost of her project.

Wouldn’t the sherpas need to be acclimatized first before they got flown up high by helicopter?


Yes, they will have been working on other 8000m peaks during the spring climbing season so already acclimatised.

In that case, wait for this record to be broken at some later point.

With more and more peaks getting commercialized, more of them peaks will already gotten fixed lines. So even less time spent on fixing lines by Sherpas. The peak bagging climber will have even better chance of running up one mountain, run down and get flown to the next one to repeat the same, 14 times.

OK, it’s never going to be “easy”. But the record will be broken due to the popularity of the peak bagging on the whole. So for those who cares, it will be an exciting competition. But for mountaineers, they probably couldn’t care less.
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Quote:

But the record will be broken due to the popularity of the peak bagging on the whole. So for those who cares, it will be an exciting competition.


Peak bagging the 8000m peaks, even if in terrible style (oxygen, teams of Sherpas carrying all your gear, standard routes using fixed lines etc.) certainly gets more Instagram likes and publicity than "proper" mountaineering. Financially Harilla will probably end up doing much better than the professional climbers. So while there has been some pushback by a minority, if you are after fame and fortune through mountaineering it's the way to go. Even more true if you don't have the experience and skills to be a traditional professional mountaineer anyway.

I'm not sure it is particularly exciting. It's just whoever can throw the most money at it and get lucky with the weather.
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What is a “traditional professional mountaineer”?
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abc wrote:
What is a “traditional professional mountaineer”?


People like urubko, bielecki, Moro, Messner, Kukuczka, Berbeka, Wielicki, Boukreev etc.

They would have to prove themselves as serious climbers before being invited to join an expedition to the Himalayas. Those expeditions would often be funded by governments. They'd always be going to do something interesting and new. They often got by through doing some work as a guide and selling kit from expeditions.

In today's world your likelihood of getting funding is as much to do with your Instagram follower numbers than any previous accomplishments, skill, or if your project is at all novel let alone unique.

Perhaps it's not all bad. There are clearly people who's face didn't fit in the old days and perhaps now they are more likely to get a chance.

It's not just mountaineering though. Same is true for snowboarding. I know a guy who didn't have any sponsors until 1 year before he made the FWT even though he was the best snowboarder around and everyone knew it. On the other hand there are completely average riders that get sponsored because they look pretty and have big social media. (I don't blame the companies, a social media star is probably a better return on investment). I have a friend that works for a big snowboard company and even she admits they are looking for a "package" and it's not just about being a good rider. Same is true for cycling, there are some pretty average cyclists who have bike sponsors because they have big YouTube channels.

There are still "proper" mountaineers out there doing awesome things and getting sponsored for cool projects. It's just a different world now. Actually being good at mountaineering isnt the only pathway. I doubt it's the most lucrative either. I'm sure harila will write a book and have a comfortable life as a motivational/after-dinner speaker. Probably easier than being a guide.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Messner doesn't have a "record". He was simply the first person to do it and happened to do it in great mountaineering style. There are no hard rules for Nims challenge as it's not a real record in comparison to something like the 100m or marathon that have universally accepted rules. That's the problem with these artificial records, that are becoming increasingly popular in the endurance world. I'm not disagreeing with you that messners achievement was better as a mountaineering feat, but that doesn't mean Nims doesn't have a record (by all means have two records with and without o2). It's a bit like kipchoges sub 2 challenge, yes they used every bit of manipulation to get him under 2 hours, but that was the goal - not doing a run under proper marathon conditions, Nims challenge is the same summit all 8k peaks as fast as possible regardless of style (although to be fair he could of had it much much easier than he actually did it!).


Mountaineering Legend Reinhold Messner Has 2 World Records Taken Away

Quote:
Between 1970 and 1986, the Italian climber conquered the 14 great peaks, but a reclassification led by German Himalayan chronicler Eberhard Jurgalski, who claims that Messner never reached the ‘true summit’ of Annapurna, has now led to the mountaineering legend losing this title. Instead, the record for the first ascent of all 14 8,000+ peaks has been awarded to American Ed Viesturs


Quote:
The reclassification takes away titles from other climbers, such as Jerzy Kukuczka, Erhard Loretan, Denis Urubko, Edurne Pasaban, and Gerlinde Kaltenbrunner, some of whom are deceased and cannot defend themselves against Jurgalski’s allegations.


Quote:
The German chronicler was also instrumental in having Nims Purja’s title of fastest time for the 14 highest peaks struck from the records, which Kristin Harila now holds.


https://snowbrains.com/mountaineering-legend-reinhold-messner-loses-2-world-records/
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Seems a bit silly

I thought no-one went to the actual summit of Kangchenjunga because it has some religious significance?
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@Arno, agree. To put some perspective on it:

Annapurna -
"The main summit ridge is around 320m long. It contains 8 summits which differ by only 26m in altitude. The higher portion of the ridge contains 6 summits which differ by only 8m in altitude within a length of just 190m. The two highest summits, which stand 40m apart, are more or less the same height (13cm difference)."

Messenger topped out 5 vertical metres below the summit and 65m horizontal distance away.

This wasn't a case of an early expedition accidentally climbing the wrong peak, an honest mistake thinking he was on the summit but actually considerable distance away (e.g. Berbeka), or climbing a considerably easier foresummit (e.g. recent manaslu debacle).

The article is correct when it says the "mountaineering legend...". You can take away all the artificial "records" from Messner. But the likes of him, Kukuczka, Urubko etc. will always be considered the best by other mountaineers. Their feats eclipse Nims (from a mountaineering point of view), even if they didn't reach the true summits.

Quote:

I thought no-one went to the actual summit of Kangchenjunga because it has some religious significance?


Lepcha tribe consider it sacred. The first summiters stopped just short of the summit, it was agreed in advance they would, I'm not sure if this was out of respect or a requirement for climbing - perhaps a bit of both.

At some point India banned people climbing it (it sits on the border between Nepal and India), due to it sacrality. I don't know if this has ever been overturned. The Nepali government don't care as long as the permit fee is high enough and they can line their pockets. From what I heard Indian side is much more difficult anyway so no good for commercial expeditions.

I doubt a lot the commercial climbers even know about the mountains significance. It's probably just one on the tick list and why ruin a good Instagram photo by not standing on the summit?! rolling eyes
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Quote:

You can take away all the artificial "records" from Messner. But the likes of him, Kukuczka, Urubko etc. will always be considered the best by other mountaineers


Quite - there is no comparison between their achievements and those of Purja and Harila (and I'm not saying their achievements are worthless just qualitatively different things).
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BTW - I see that Mick Fowler (perhaps UK's most legendary active mountaineer) and Simon Yates just had a bit of an epic...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/world-famous-touching-void-free-31019430

Fowler long ago abandoned 8000m climbing for technically difficult first ascents on unclimbed 6-7000m peaks. All while working full time for the Inland Revenue and is globally respected in the mountaineering community.
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Quote:

Fowler long ago abandoned 8000m climbing for technically difficult first ascents on unclimbed 6-7000m peaks.


If I had the skills that would certainly be my approach. Why pay huge fees for permits to climb overcrowded mountains when you can go somewhere like Pamirs or Tian Shan and have a proper remote adventure climbing new routes.
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Lot of climbers of the past 60 years have clearly messed up.

Stopping 1% short of the real summit is amateur hour.
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Whitegold wrote:
Lot of climbers of the past 60 years have clearly messed up.

Stopping 1% short of the real summit is amateur hour.


I know you are just trolling. But for those that maybe don't realise a mountain summit is often not the cartoon style pinnacle you may be thinking of. Often it can be a long ridge or a big plateau. Finding the highest point by eyesight is often impossible. Remember these guys were climbing before detailed maps and GPS. They went to wherever looked highest, and were often close to correct.

It does happen that even professional mountaineers think they are on a summit, but are actually quite far away. See Berbeka. Hardly an "amateur". But combine whiteout, with climbing an unfamiliar route solo, plus extreme exhaustion and it becomes more understandable. But it's clearly different to messners Annapurna incorrect summit for example.
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jedster wrote:
BTW - I see that Mick Fowler (perhaps UK's most legendary active mountaineer) ...

Fowler long ago abandoned 8000m climbing for technically difficult first ascents on unclimbed 6-7000m peaks. All while working full time for the Inland Revenue and is globally respected in the mountaineering community.
I loved his first ascent of the frozen bog overflow at St Pancras in his early days snowHead
Quote:
...famously ice-climbed a 65-foot (20 m) frozen water icicle from a broken toilet at St Pancras.
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I wonder if Maurice Hertzog and co climbed the "correct" summit?!
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Just watched it (14 Peaks).

The over riding thing I took from the film was that he wanted to get Nepalese climbers (Sherpas) the credit he feels they deserved.
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Quote:

The over riding thing I took from the film was that he wanted to get Nepalese climbers (Sherpas) the credit he feels they deserved.


Weird choice of project if that was the goal. I got the impression it was about him and the record, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If he wanted to make it about Nepalese climbers he could have used the same group for each climb and shared the record. I think people underestimate how business savvy the guy is, he managed to get a lot of funding for the project, get some pretty difficult permits for the Chinese peaks, and has pivoted it into one of the most in demand commercial climbing companies. This isn't a knock on him, I respect what he's done.

The winter K2 summit was a much better promotion of Nepali climbers. Although, Nepali climbers are extremely highly respected in the mountaineering world already. Most have known for a long time they do all the hard work on mountains like Everest.
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This whole mountaineering thing has turned into a farce - records of accomplished climbers are being annulled where people with the most social media followers are taking the limelight. It's happening in boxing too - youtube amateur boxers earning more than other boxers who would take them out in the first round. They often fight big boxing names who are well past their prime or fighters from another discipline e.g. MMA.
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@boarder2020, being cynical is very good but you seem to be taking this to the extreme a little bit IMVHO.

I wasn't saying he purely did it to gain respect for Nepalese climbers merely that was (for me) a big theme of the film. And whilst they may be "respected" they are often mentioned in passing as "Sherpas" rather than individuals.

I love the romanticism of stuff - I've read Killing Dragons 3 times for example - and in modern times would rather watch The Fifty than this documentary but it was an interesting project/film and overall quite liked the guy.

The 'romance' has probably gone out of a lot of mountaineering, as indeed it probably has for a lot of things in modern life. I am not sure what can be done about that. Things can't easily be undone.
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@Layne, perhaps I'm a cynic, but I seem to be proven right more than wrong on this topic. Harila who smashed Nims record in perhaps even worse style has announced she's done with mountaineering.

"Yet she is far from done with speaking about her past climbs. Harila’s calendar is full of lectures and motivational speaking gigs. She is also writing a book about her
experiences in the Himalaya... In addition, Harila had all her record-setting climbs this year filmed. Her goal, seemingly like many climbers, athletes, and adventurers these days, is to sell a documentary to one of the big TV platforms."

The pathway has been established:
1 - Find "unique" goal you can convince sponsors is worth finding (often the uniqueness of said goal is questionable)
2 - throw money at goal to accomplish it at any means necessary.
3 - spin of the accomplishment into motivation speaker, guiding, or some other company.

There is nothing romantic about standard routes of 8000m peaks anymore. Doesn't mean there's not a lot of awesome stuff going on out there. Even on 8000m peaks you have the russian team trying to climb the South face of Cho oyu right now. Elsewhere you have plenty of very cool expeditions. E.g. https://explorersweb.com/first-ascent-ghamubar-zom-v/

The trouble is you wouldnt hear about them unless you were actively looking for them. The serious mountaineers tend to not have the social media and marketing savvy of the likes of Harila and Nims. I like the explorersweb website which covers all kind of expeditions, and reminds me lots of people are doing incredibly awesome things.
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boarder2020 wrote:


The pathway has been established:
1 - Find "unique" goal you can convince sponsors is worth finding (often the uniqueness of said goal is questionable)
2 - throw money at goal to accomplish it at any means necessary.
3 - spin of the accomplishment into motivation speaker, guiding, or some other company.


This isn’t unique to mountaineering though. It could almost describe Liz Truss’s career trajectory Laughing

I think the fact is that difficult technical mountaineering is quite hard to capture in media, and a lot of mountaineers aren’t exactly Hollywood people so they do their thing away from the limelight
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@Arno, no not just mountaineering but a lot of adventure/expedition style stuff. You have to have some kind of unique "first" or "record". Often this aspect is so artificial and manufactured.

Take Preet Chandi Antarctica longest solo female expedition. Got a lot of positive press coverage in UK. Her goal was to ski across Antarctica. By the time she'd reached the south pole she was already so far behind it was clear she wouldnt make the crossing. Rather than stop at the pole she continued on in an attempt to make a record, and then got evacuated out.

She skied 51km further than the old record, but it took 10 extra days, and the old "record" was not really an attempt to ski the furthest, it ended because she completed her route.

As with nims and harila, Preet accomplished something very impressive. But the spin and artificialness of trying to reverse-engineer a "record" leaves a bad taste with me.
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In the 14 Peaks film it was clear that Nims was one of these people goal driven, with a one track mind, determined... however, you want to describe it. You know he went in the Ghurkhas, special forces and physically as the tests in the film showed he had the special attributes (oxygen use or whatever it was) that meant he was built for that kind of challenge. The two things combined, along with his heritage sent him on this trajectory. Very few people would have that combination. So it's quite an interesting story in that context.

I guess we need to define what we are discussing here: the film, the state of mountaineering, modern society, etc. In simple terms I would say the film was a 3, maybe 3.5 out of 5 but for me it's the sort of subject matter that interests me so it was a good watch.
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Layne wrote:
I guess we need to define what we are discussing here: the film, the state of mountaineering, modern society, etc.

Modern society is obsessed with “records”. There’re countless “top 10”, “best” list of everything you can think of.

Less “modern” but nonetheless “modern” are our society’s obsession with speed. We were conditioned to view speed as a highly desirable characteristic of everything. Witness the recent mention of the “fastest way to brew tea”.

The aesthetic of the climb is, like the taste of the tea, only appreciated by the minority purist.
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Quote:
SUMMARY
First true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers: Ed Viesturs (USA), 18 May 1989–12 May 2005
First true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers without supplementary oxygen: Ed Viesturs (USA), 18 May 1989–12 May 2005
Fastest true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers without supplementary oxygen: 15 years 359 days by Ed Viesturs (USA), 18 May 1989–12 May 2005
First true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers by a woman: Dong Hong-Juan (China), 19 May 2013–26 April 2023
Fastest true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers: 92 days by Kristin Harila (Norway, female) and Tenjen Lama Sherpa (Nepal, male), 26 April–27 July 2023
First and Fastest true-summit ascent of all 8,000ers without supplementary oxygen by a woman: No records


https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2023/9/reclassifying-the-8000ers-758542
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boarder2020 wrote:
Whitegold wrote:
Lot of climbers of the past 60 years have clearly messed up.

Stopping 1% short of the real summit is amateur hour.


I know you are just trolling. But for those that maybe don't realise a mountain summit is often not the cartoon style pinnacle you may be thinking of. Often it can be a long ridge or a big plateau. Finding the highest point by eyesight is often impossible. Remember these guys were climbing before detailed maps and GPS. They went to wherever looked highest, and were often close to correct.

It does happen that even professional mountaineers think they are on a summit, but are actually quite far away. See Berbeka. Hardly an "amateur". But combine whiteout, with climbing an unfamiliar route solo, plus extreme exhaustion and it becomes more understandable. But it's clearly different to messners Annapurna incorrect summit for example.



No trolling needed.

It is very simple.

You climb 100% from bottom to top.

Not 99%.

You don't run 25 miles for a marathon. You run 26.

Elite mountaineers are not just climbers. They are also meteorologists, navigators, and orienteerers.

It is clear that hundreds of elite mountaineers in the past 60 years have miscalculated, misnavigated, misorienteered, guessed, or lied, about their final "summits".

It is comical. Perhaps a tragedy.

They are not as elite as they thought they were...
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Whitegold wrote:
You don't run 25 miles for a marathon. You run 26.

26 mi 385 yd actually.

If you are going to lecture people on stuff then...
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2 American women trying to be the first American woman to climb all the 8000m peaks both died trying to race each other to the top of Shishapangma which was the last on their list.

“Everything was going smoothly, but the competition between the two ladies ruined everything.” Mingma G

Full story here https://explorersweb.com/what-happened-shishapangma-climbers-speak/

TLDR -

- some suspicion one convinced customs officers to stall the other.

- both already were on oxygen at camp 1

- as much as his company are trying to distance themselves from it all. Nims was leader for Gutu’s team. He was far behind, which has raised questions about if he should of been on o2 (he wasn't using it as he wanted to tick this off as his last no O2 8000m peak). Even more so as there is some thoughts they may have taken a poor route.

- witnesses say Rzucidlo must have saw the first avalanche. Radio communication said Gutu was caught in it. Rather than help or even turn around they pushed on. Awful decision that cost her and her guides life.

- some absolute heroics by Mingma G, who almost died himself.

It was only a matter of time before these stupid record attempts resulted in disaster with people taking stupid risks. I wouldn't have a problem if they were climbing solo. But 2 guides have needlessly died because some rich westerner needed a worthless record.
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boarder2020 wrote:
I wouldn't have a problem if they were climbing solo. But 2 guides have needlessly died because some rich westerner needed a worthless record.

Really?

Those “guides” aren’t doing it to put another feather on their cap? Because they’re not “westerners”?

Quote:
as much as his company are trying to distance themselves from it all. Nims was leader for Gutu’s team. He was far behind, which has raised questions about if he should have been on o2 (he wasn't using it as he wanted to tick this off as his last no O2 8000m peak). Even more so as there is some thoughts they may have taken a poor route.

Of course, if the “westerner” never bother to climb any of the Himalayas peaks, not a single “guide” would have ever died in any avalanches.
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Nims is the exception to the rule. He is more like a westerner in that his climbing was funded by sponsors and he's managed to spin his record out into a documentary and guiding company. Similar to how Harilla has said she's not mountaineering any more and is trying to sell her documentary and doing speaking tours.

The majority of Sherpa guides are doing it because it's their only opportunity to earn decent money. There's not much fame in it, let's be honest other than Nims and Tenzing Norgay you couldn't name another.

I was in the gompa in Thame and one monk had a nice red north face jacket with adventure consultants logos and "Everest expedition". Turned out his uncle worked on the expedition (summited with a client) and had given him the jacket. I said that's a nice gift I thought he might have liked to keep it as a souvenir. "No he doesn't like red". But when you live in a village where probably 10%+ of men have summited Everest it's not particularly special enough to worth keeping a souvenir, yet alone one in a colour you don't like!

Tenjen Lama had already summited Everest 4 times, and had 15 8000m summits just this year including one winter on Makalu. He didn't have anything to prove. In fact his resume was more impressive than plenty of those getting book deals and after dining speaking gigs in the west. He was there because they were paying him, supposedly he was personally requested by his client due to the work he did with Harilla.

Quote:

Of course, if the “westerner” never bother to climb any of the Himalayas peaks, not a single “guide” would have ever died in any avalanches.


Of course accidents happen, climbing 8000m peaks will never be completely safe. However, it's fairly obvious these time dependent record attempts only increase risk taking.

If you want to make the case that guides have some responsibility, I'd completely agree. But it's a strange power dynamic, where the "client" (their word) and the expedition outfit put a lot of pressure on the guide. There are also cultural and economic factors in play, for example the fact they get paid a significant summit bonus isn't helpful to good decision making.
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Quote:
these time dependent record attempts only increase risk taking.

More than the risk increase of the conger lines on the popular routes?

Moreover, it’s not all “westerner” on those popular routes. There were plenty of Koreans, Indians…

Granted, if they all climb solo, the conger lines would have been only half as long…
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Dravot wrote:
To all/any of his critics. There was nothing stopping you doing this first.
+1
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boarder2020 wrote:
abc wrote:
What is a “traditional professional mountaineer”?


People like urubko, bielecki, Moro, Messner, Kukuczka, Berbeka, Wielicki, Boukreev etc.


Unbelievably you missed Sir Christian Bonington from that list
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