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Cutting down on grooming and snowmaking

 Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting article.

The director of Serre Chevalier, the largest ski area in the southern French Alps and one of the world’s biggest with 250km of slopes, says he hopes the resort will do less snowmaking in the future, in order to reduce the energy and water use snowmaking requires.

Mr Arnaud went on to say that, “we can no longer treat the mountain the way it was treated in the past,” and continued, “Our approach to preparing the ski area must also change: less man-made snow and also less grooming, a return to the joys of skiing of the old days, and in any case more eco-responsible grooming with electrification of our grooming machines to reduce our carbon footprint.”

https://www.snow-forecast.com/whiteroom/french-resort-aims-for-less-snowmaking/?fbclid=IwAR2dPbuz_aO5kL4VLres5DhkZUR7_fJj3C85grpn_z4zrTGylhbLiFVB5ek
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Cutting down on snow making is a brave call as the temps increase…
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@BobinCH, indeed. However, ensuring the snowmaking is done in the most sustainable fashion is clearly a good.

Less grooming, however, an excellent plan snowHead
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@BobinCH, he does make a good point about that, namely

80% of the ski area is above 2000m. where natural snow is on the ground till May. We need to direct the flow towards places where skiing is natural, according to the season.”
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I don’t see how you reduce snow making when resorts are increasingly relying on it to secure the pistes back to resort with rising temps. Make it more efficient perhaps but I don’t see any evidence that resorts are reducing it. If anything they’re investing more in it.

And most punters want corduroy so a resort that reduces piste grooming is just going to make itself less popular.

Create more freeride areas/itineraries by all means but marking pistes and then not grooming them doesn’t make much sense to me.
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kitenski wrote:
@BobinCH, he does make a good point about that, namely

80% of the ski area is above 2000m. where natural snow is on the ground till May. We need to direct the flow towards places where skiing is natural, according to the season.”


That's a good point. We could forget the idea of guaranteed pre Xmas and Xmas skiing and enjoy longer into April and May.

"But it's too slushy then!" I hear the crowds say.

"Spray n pray, baby" I say repurposing some pow skis

The real issue is hotelliers and the resort economies wanting to bank their money weeks at Xmas and NY.
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Greenwashing ?

Not too sure the commercial side of things will like his comments Laughing

We'll be going back to the old days, pre snow-cannon when all the mid stations were where you could really only ski March onwards, hence they have all the beginner areas etc and maybe every now and again you'd be able to ski back down into the valley.

And the 80% comment, with all the snow there till May, that's not what I see otherwise I'd be touring up there all the time, though last season we did drive up some trails to 2,000m and skin from there, so maybe an element of truth ??

Back in 2018 he said...

Serre Chevalier has announced that it plans to invest €134m in the resort over the next 30 years.

Most of the money will go into upgrading the lift system, with €83.5m allocated to new lifts. Compagnie des Alpes – owners of the resort – are also committing €10.9m to creating artificial snow, €33million on snow groomers and more ‘regular’ investments.

The program is supported by €2.8 million regional grant with the rest coming out of the Compagnie des Alpes pocket.


Though the strategy of investing in new gondolas replacing chairs is to counter what they believe will be the lack of snow down to the valley floor and warm temps so they can't make snow.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sun 7-11-21 10:48; edited 3 times in total
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In cases where there are more than 1 route to choose from, then it would be easy to leave one of those ungroomed and monitor how many people used that. |It might encourage more people to try the more challenging route.

Be interesting to see if the technology of battery power is enough for those machines, heavy as they are.
Solar power to recharge them might be a way forward, especially on blue sky days. The surplus power during the summer could be fed into the grid, to offset the winter costs.

Might be an objection to solar farms in the mountains from some though.
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@brianatab, Quite a few hybrid diesel / electric pistebashers around but suspect the way to go will be Hydrogen, like JCB are pushing on with for construction plant.
Hard to see fully electric being adequate where the machines do a double shift from say 5-00pm until 8-00am. Easily swappable batteries might be a possibility I suppose.
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I am all for having more avalanche controlled and patrolled unbashed runs.

But doing away with with grooming and snowmaking all together is a good way for resorts to shot themselves in the foot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Late season skiing has been tried before - Tignes used to be a 365 day a year resort.
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@brianatab, nuclear to charge them... I think the usability of piste bashers is somewhat different from Tesla's so swappable batteries seems eminently reasonable. Hydrogen also sensible.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
under a new name wrote:
@brianatab, nuclear to charge them... I think the usability of piste bashers is somewhat different from Tesla's so swappable batteries seems eminently reasonable. Hydrogen also sensible.

Nuclear isn't a crazy suggestion. The microreactors that are beginning to come to market might make sense for lots of things like this, including providing power up the mountain. This one appears targeted at defence markets, but the requirements are pretty similar: https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/new-plants/evinci-micro-reactor
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BobinCH wrote:


And most punters want corduroy so a resort that reduces piste grooming is just going to make itself less popular.

Create more freeride areas/itineraries by all means but marking pistes and then not grooming them doesn’t make much sense to me.


Certainly some just want piste cruising. Looking at the north American resorts way more people are interested in getting off the groomers, I suspect a lot of this is due to off-piste being more accessible. Once you start creating good avy controller freeride/natural areas I think there may be a bit of a shift to more people trying them out. Right now most 1 week a year skiers think not groomed = huge moguls.

Something like 7th heaven at Whistler is imo the perfect compromise. A couple of groomed pistes for those that want them and then plenty of fun areas in between the pistes for those that want it. Great area that even the most mixed groups can all enjoy.

There is also the safety argument. Supposedly less grooming = slower speeds = less crashes/injuries.
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I'd love it - but I suspect the majority of your 1 week per year, Intermediate recreational skiers, would hate it.
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boarder2020 wrote:
BobinCH wrote:


And most punters want corduroy so a resort that reduces piste grooming is just going to make itself less popular.

Create more freeride areas/itineraries by all means but marking pistes and then not grooming them doesn’t make much sense to me.


Certainly some just want piste cruising. Looking at the north American resorts way more people are interested in getting off the groomers, I suspect a lot of this is due to off-piste being more accessible. Once you start creating good avy controller freeride/natural areas I think there may be a bit of a shift to more people trying them out. Right now most 1 week a year skiers think not groomed = huge moguls.

Something like 7th heaven at Whistler is imo the perfect compromise. A couple of groomed pistes for those that want them and then plenty of fun areas in between the pistes for those that want it. Great area that even the most mixed groups can all enjoy.

There is also the safety argument. Supposedly less grooming = slower speeds = less crashes/injuries.


100% agree.
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BobinCH wrote:


And most punters want corduroy so a resort that reduces piste grooming is just going to make itself less popular.

Create more freeride areas/itineraries by all means but marking pistes and then not grooming them doesn’t make much sense to me.


+1.

BobinCH wrote:
Cutting down on snow making is a brave call as the temps increase…


Yep, just won't happen. Basic mountain economics will demand piste cover, especially after 1 1/2 seasons of revenue has gone bye bye.
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Are there any resorts without snow making (other than small village lifts)?

The other issue that climate warming has made it more difficult for snow making to operate. I know that Saas-Fee at 1800M has relied on snow making to allow any of the 3 runs back to the village to operate consistently for more than 15 years, how anything in the 1000M range stays operational is amazing.

The last time I was in Saas-Fee in Feb 2020 it was rarely cold enough with low enough humidity for the snow making to operate successfully. The temperatures were ridiculous with daytime village temperatures at +7 or +8C, and barely 0C at night, which was 10C higher than normal.

As for grooming, that appears to be a commercial decision, rather than enviromental or piste quality. By which I mean, the less we groom the more money we save, the more profit we make, the bigger my bonus. Previously, it was, we will maintain all the pistes in the best condition possible.
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To go back to the old days would require a return to the old temperatures, the old snowfalls and the old lifts. With modern uplift moving three or four times the number of people pistes that do not have a dense artificial base are unlikely to last long?

Isn’t there also a move to eliminate red diesel for agriculture, construction and snow grooming ?
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Well, i selfishly think the resorts i know well have get it about right for us skiers, though i undestand the environmental concerns.
In recent seasons without snowmaking, many resorts (La Plagne for one) would not have been able to open for Christmas, and would have been rather unpleasant at New Year.
So for all of us selfish skiers (me included), please keep snowmaking.
And grooming too, certainly for the resorts I frequent (Tignes, Val d'Isere, La Plagne, Les Arcs), i think they've got it about right.
In all those resorts there is plenty of between-piste off-piste - not specifically declared safe, but safe enough all the same.
Enough to satisfy most skiers tastes.
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Arent the groomed trails just to enable you to get to the fun and interesting terrain wink Toofy Grin


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 8-11-21 15:57; edited 1 time in total
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@Jonpim,
Quote:

would not have been able to open for Christmas


But opening for xmas in most resorts has only been reliable since the advent* of snowmaking ... I'm not convinced it is something that should be relied upon.

* see what I did there
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I think it may be about more than just early season opening. I suspect snowmaking is now essential to facilitate high transit areas because of high capacity ski lifts, congested runs, steep slopes and southerly aspects.
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@Peter S, thinking about it, I suspect you're right. Monterosa installed cannons on the Col between ~Champoluc and ~Gressoney because it's so often wind scoured that it was somewhat unreliable as any link, never mind the only one.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski wrote:
Interesting article.

The director of Serre Chevalier, the largest ski area in the southern French Alps and one of the world’s biggest with 250km of slopes, says he hopes the resort will do less snowmaking in the future, in order to reduce the energy and water use snowmaking requires.

Mr Arnaud went on to say that, “we can no longer treat the mountain the way it was treated in the past,” and continued, “Our approach to preparing the ski area must also change: less man-made snow and also less grooming, a return to the joys of skiing of the old days, and in any case more eco-responsible grooming with electrification of our grooming machines to reduce our carbon footprint.”

https://www.snow-forecast.com/whiteroom/french-resort-aims-for-less-snowmaking/?fbclid=IwAR2dPbuz_aO5kL4VLres5DhkZUR7_fJj3C85grpn_z4zrTGylhbLiFVB5ek


Good article / interesting conversation starter!
Snow making is an astonishing waste of energy : the ultimate irony of global warming.
Plus the artificial snow it produces (once refrozen) tends to be unpleasant polished concrete that you don't want to ski on.

Overall I agree with the sentiment expressed about adapting to the situation.
Much of the alps has been trashed by ski over-development during the past 50 years.
Though I like Serre Chevalier - for a big resort it has generally retained character and a natural feel.
A good example of resort where the higher runs could by accessed by gondola from mid March to April.
... as opposed to fighting nature and consuming energy to ensure skiable route back to town.
However such approach requires a change of mindset from lazy-punters who are used to manicured mountains.

The real issue is that tourism (people flying all over Europe) for short-haul holidays is pretty unsustainable.
In 25 years time will air travel still be a defend-able or socially acceptable proposition ?
Or will the ski industry need to re-invent itself around the train ?
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on the bashing point, I'm under the impression that piste-bashing helps sustain snow cover and mitigate the need for snow making. I also suspect it keeps the crowds on marked runs and leaves all that room between the pistes for those of us who like that kind of thing. I think we might just get more competition for it if people were not attracted to the marked runs by grooming
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Shame that they can't just lay temporary dry slope matting to key areas at the start of the year to provide the back-up base, rather than rely on artificial snow. I know that amount that might be needed would mean a massive operation but if it was only used on key low slopes that were high traffic areas?
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@jedster, Yep it has its purpose.

But anyone who has skied in North America will tell you that skier packing of the ungroomed slopes ends up with almost the same effect. I think no-one will ever actually reduce grooming unless there is some kind of commercial advantage in redesignating "freeride zones" as above. Putting off the piste skier and pandering to a smaller group of skiers isn't a recipe for success.
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@PowderAdict, Nax Mont Mont Noble, not just a village lift but not really a resort either, 1500m - 2640m with 3 chairs and 2 drags, is the biggest place that I've skied that had no snow making and the pistes were in really good condition top to bottom for each of the days that I was there, all mid Feb to early March 2018. I think that I got pretty lucky with conditions though and that their season is normally shorter than that of their snow making equipped neighbours.

I do think that Serre Chevalier is in a better position than many others to reduce their snow making and market their product differently. They have a lot of north facing fairly open terrain above 2000m that could be turned into 'in-bounds' off-piste terrain. Presumably a lot of this terrain is already blasted to keep the pistes below it safe so there wouldn't be a huge extra expense in making it officially safe. If they made the 'in bounds' area stop at roughly the tree line then patrolling it could be cheap as well, potentially using drones to perform sweeps of the area. It would be a fairly unique proposition in Europe and could attract people keen to try off-piste but put off by the safety issues.

Additionally, If you start removing your low down runs, you can start to produce some misleading statistics, '100% of runs above 2000m' sounds pretty good for example. Views on here regarding downloading at the end of the day vary greatly, I personally don't mind it, but others think that it significantly mars their day but as Serre Chevalier has little in the way of true ski in out anyway then having to download more often doesn't significantly increase the commute in getting home at the end of the day.

Having said all that, I still think that making it be known that you're going to reduce your snowmaking is a pretty brave move
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Haggis_Trap wrote:

Snow making is an astonishing waste of energy : the ultimate irony of global warming.
Plus the artificial snow it produces (once refrozen) tends to be unpleasant polished concrete that you don't want to ski on.


Better than skiing on rocks and gravel. I think you’d be surprised at the state of the pistes (especially lower home runs) if they weren’t supplemented by the artificial concrete base! The ski resorts wouldn’t invest so much money in it otherwise.

Imagine the carnage of tons of people trying to ski back into Verbier on Xmas week on a home run rock fest Skullie

This better non?
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Most skiers want well groomed pistes, the off piste is jaunts between pistes, to make us feel good. Most skiers like me are holiday skiers. I’m a decent holiday skier, happy on blacks, can get pretty much anywhere on piste, with according to my instructor in Zermatt ( first lesson in 30:years in 2020),a reasonable amount of style. For 3 weeks skiing a year tops, that’s as much as I could reasonably hope for. It is also wonderful. From my observations most off piste skiers are not very good at it, and struggle terribly. Some are obviously excellent and I watch with admiration. At the age of 64 however its on piste Or Nothing. Without pistes, skiing as we know it today will not exist. It will not attract anything like the volume of skiers. For those who live in ski areas, and we’re born on the hills, this could be seen as a good thing, but not I think for their businesses and livelihoods. Not having pistes will lead to more summer holidays, (ughh from me if on a beach) and less in the mountains. I fear global warming will push us this way and make ski holidays even more expensive as lower resorts become unviable. It’s sad, but perhaps the least of our problems. I’m hoping from a selfish perspective perhaps to get another 10 or 15 years in. That however is obviously not enough for the majority of snowheads. Hope I’m wrong sincerely.
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Haggis_trap wrote:

Snow making is an astonishing waste of energy : the ultimate irony of global warming.
Plus the artificial snow it produces (once refrozen) tends to be unpleasant polished concrete that you don't want to ski on.


BobinCH wrote:
Better than skiing on rocks and gravel. I think you’d be surprised at the state of the pistes (especially lower home runs) if they weren’t supplemented by the artificial concrete base! The ski resorts wouldn’t invest so much money in it otherwise. Imagine the carnage of tons of people trying to ski back into Verbier on Xmas week on a home run rock fest Skullie


You drive a Tesla ?
But can't see the obvious irony in consuming energy to produce artificial snow because global warming has raised average temperature in alps by 2-4C ?
In simple terms that is equivalent to snow line rising by 330-660m.

If I had a magic wand then Verbier with out any piste grooming be would be even more awesome wink
For me the attraction of Verbier is runs like Gentianes, Chassoure or Grepon Blanc.
As I see it the out of control skier traffic on M1 a far bigger danger to each other than rocks.
Though I am not a typical part of the skier-venn diagram who expect the mountain to be manicured for their convenience.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 8-11-21 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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Wow look at that. Someone in the industry talking some sense for once albeit only in the face of a global catastrophe. In any case, if it’s on piste then you are, at best, just practicing for the real thing. Also need to drastically reduce the number and scale of lifts.
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@Ionizingskin, I’m afraid you are missing the point, that the ‘real thing’ is not a mass market activity. Great if you like it, but a minority sport. Getting to the mountains is the big emissions factor I would have thought, snowmaking a minor factor especially as it uses electricity, ( are Electric cars environmentally damaging, - well yes they are but it’s a matter of degree). Water seems pretty plentiful. You are essentially advocating that skiing should cease as 90%+ of skiers recognise it.
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@twoodwar, yes very true. For most once/twice a year intermediates skiing groomed pistes are key to a good holiday. I remember resorts grooming every other day, so we use to find out which pistes had been groomed and sought those out. We all have to ski ungroomed pistes at times (those days when it snows after the bashers have been and it all gets tracked out), and it's normally great fun - but if your technique is less than ideal then your legs will suffer!

If some resorts reduce grooming, punters will vote with their feet and just go to resorts where they don't. The answer will ultimately be in technology but how quickly they'll get to that who knows. I remember Val Thorens investing in an electro-transmission groomer in 2013 - so 8 years ago - so if they were thinking about that then, you'd hope that further progress had been made since then.
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Also worth pointing out this is the ‘The piste’ thread not the ‘Off piste’
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Also Hydrogen powered Piste bashes might help. JCB introducing a number of their diggers with this in. One central refuelling stop for all a resorts machines would seem doable? I’m not an engineer though, just and economist and ex businessman.( happily retired)
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@twoodwar, The JCB hydrogen engine is just bonkers. I cannot fathom why they want to burn it like petrol rather than put it through a fuel cell which is considerably more efficient than burning it. The Val Thorens basher mentioned earlier is a diesel electric hybrid demonstrating that piste basers work fine with an electric drive train and hence a fuel cell would be a better choice than a hydrogen ICE. Ultimately, I can't see hydrogen becoming widespread outspread of flying and some niche industries due to the inherent inefficiencies in producing it* compared to just using the electricity directly or via a battery and hence high costs.

Many ski runs are groomed by piste bashers on winches at the moment. It wouldn't be impossible to attach an electrical cable at the same time as the winch and power the basher via the grid. Runs which don't need winches could have the tethering equipment added anyway. This would have high installation costs but much lower operating costs than a hydrogen powered system due to the much higher efficiencies of a pure electric system and without the costa of a huge battery. The piste pasher would then just need a small battery, or fuel cell, or diesel generator to provide electricity as it moved between different runs. John Deere ave already build a prototype tractor along thee lines
http://youtube.com/v/hMOkFqN1tC8

*Unless the plan is to use blue hydrogen which by some studies is estimated as being more environmentally damaging than diesel
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