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resort boundaries ??

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Final point on this, 'Follow ski patrol guidelines' could also easily trip you up.

The Val d'Isere website for example states on the subject of off piste:

'For anyone who has mastered the basics of ski or snowboard technique – it’s easier than you imagine – leave the prepared pistes and head off into untracked powder with a local, qualified guide.'

If that is interpreted by the insurer as ski patrol guidelines, which wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if when asked ski patrol point them in the direction of a statement like that, then that rules out off piste skiing without a guide in Val d'Isere.

Other resorts do take a different tack, Chamonix for example is more open to off piste skiing without a guide:

'The high mountains are very accessible here. Chamonix has a highly pragmatic attitude to off piste activity. Every individual is responsible for their own safety. Do not rely on others unless they are qualified and hired for that purpose. Get insured and know how to call upon the emergency services should they be necessary. There are many crevasse and avalanche zones off-piste in the Chamonix valley.'

Basically, if you're going to ski off piste join the Austrian Alpine Club or similar and save yourself the hassle of worrying over all the small print and possible interprations
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
In Val d'Isere, Grand Pre? and I think at the top of the Mt Vallon Gondola in 3V I have seen signs that say ski area ends here, in places where popular off piste routes start. I think that does clearly state a boundary.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pateman99 wrote:
@Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay !

In that case aren't we overthinking the issue?

If a pisteur arrives, then you are clearly 'within the resort boundaries', and so covered by your insurance to meet the cost of recovery / treatment
If not, then the rescue is free, so you don't have to worry about the cost. (And the treatment ought to be covered by the GHIC arrangement)
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Repatriation wouldn't be covered for the outside resort boundaries accident, which could be very expensive.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Think there are two types of insurance being discussed intertwined here.

- Rescue insurance (blood bucket, St. Bernard, helicopter). This can be purchased as a add-on to your lift pass in France (of included in specialist defined off-piste insurance)

- Medical insurance. Does not cover off-piste, unless specifically defined which we agree is vague. EHIC card will provide emergency public health cover for skiing anywhere but will exclude things like repatriation (i think)
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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ecureuil wrote:
pateman99 wrote:
@Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay !

In that case aren't we overthinking the issue?

If a pisteur arrives, then you are clearly 'within the resort boundaries', and so covered by your insurance to meet the cost of recovery / treatment
If not, then the rescue is free, so you don't have to worry about the cost. (And the treatment ought to be covered by the GHIC arrangement)


Hard to over think insurance. I like a policy which is clear cut. As pointed out by pieman666, repatriation can be expensive. Furthermore, if you have an accident, you can be distinctly under the weather - and it's nice to have a decent insurance company project managing your case .... assuming that it still is, of course.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Ozboy, off-piste cover didn't use to be vague with BMC insurance. On the contrary it was crystal clear. Quite a while since I skied off piste through, so I haven't used it recently.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@achilles, just looked at BMC and insurance for a European annual multi-trip for £279 which is not bad as it includes mountain biking and other mountain activities as well as cycle racing as I also do timed events in Europe. This also includes annual membership. I need to read the fine print but it clearly states off-piste with or without a guide. I need to understand if there are any complexities about being double insured for most of the (“non-extreme”) travel insurance components as I have travel insurance with Natwest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It would cost my family £546.97 for BMC annual policy (including family membership of £69.80 which is a requirement for a family policy). LV Premium policy was £150.23

Now, of course my £150 policy may prove very expensive when I have to make a claim. But it's a notable price difference.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Ozboy, when I last insured with BMC their policy was modular- you could opt out of some elements that might be covered by other insurance. Double insurance would have to be declared in the event of a claim of course - whereupon the insurance companies would liaise with each other.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Layne wrote:
It would cost my family £546.97 for BMC annual policy (including family membership of £69.80 which is a requirement for a family policy). LV Premium policy was £150.23

Now, of course my £150 policy may prove very expensive when I have to make a claim. But it's a notable price difference.


The price difference reflects how much more it covers, apples to oranges.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
The concept of “resort boundary” does not apply in Europe


Quote:
Most piste maps bear no resemblance to a topographic map - so they would not be definitive.


But in the context of arguing with an insurance company using the phrase "resort boundary" when they don't know what that phrase means then I would point to the piste map as an indicator.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So here is an area with a single lift pass. Where is the boundary? https://www.valgardenaskimap.com/en/dolomiti-superski
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
We can all acknowledge the flaws in resort boundary as a concept for Europe particularly in interconnected resorts. But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley.

It's not ideal but in reality the only ruinous error you can make is in heli-bills, given EHIC and assuming other costs may sting a bit but aren't catastrophic. And if you're concerned about that there is always the OAC.

In practice has anyone got any direct experience of where rescue from a offpiste accident was by pisteurs (or a heli called in by them) that a claim has been denied ? It would be informative if that were the main criteria. Does anyone even report GPS co-ordinates etc in claim?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
For non-members the Austrian Alpine Club is currently offering new members a discount (25% of normal price) for next year until the end of December.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjt7_yS9PzzAhUEP30KHftfDLEQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpenverein.at%2Fa-bas01_wGlobal%2FwGlobal%2Fscripts%2FaccessDocument.php%3FforceDownload%3D0%26document%3D%252Fvorarlberg-bezirk-dornbirn_wAssets%252Fdocs%252Fsportbonus%252Fsportbonus.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1WJknXH1ZGuNscgSQBgCPD

The price is less than lunch.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Layne, I have BMC insurance largely for the mountaineering and rock climbing cover. That it also does skiing, including off piste is a bonus. It is, however, very expensive. It would be worth checking that the LV insurance covers activities such as Via Ferrata. In the Dolomites many marked foorpaths may contain a section of ferrata.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowball wrote:
So here is an area with a single lift pass. Where is the boundary? https://www.valgardenaskimap.com/en/dolomiti-superski


If, on that map (I haven't zoomed in and looked too closely), there is a run to the extreme edges (lift to top and marked piste back down or pisted run to the valley bottom and a lift out), then you could draw a boundary and argue with the insurance company that it was a resort boundary. If I was skiing within this hypothetical boundary either on or off piste and suffered an injury or loss that I wanted to claim for then in the absence of any clearer definition I would use my hypothetical boundary (man on the Clapham Omnibus reasoning?).

I can understand that it is a tricky definition and open to interpretation but for the most part it is a hypothetical argument since most of us will never need to resort (no pun intended) to it.

Looks a lovely area snowball hope to get there some day Very Happy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
We can all acknowledge the flaws in resort boundary as a concept for Europe particularly in interconnected resorts. But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley.


This from ^ @Dave of the Marmottes,
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Quote:

But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley.


So vallee blanche would be fair game?

Quote:

I would use my hypothetical boundary


It doesn't matter what you or me consider the resort boundary. The LV example clearly says it's whatever the resort considers it to be. So unless you get an answer from an individual resort (which may be - "once you leave the piste you're on your own") you are just guessing. Do you really want to take that risk?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not exactly, but a good example of insurance companies quibbling over the fine print after a tragic off piste accident

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/mountain-of-debt-for-tignes-avalanche-families/
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