 Poster: A snowHead
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Final point on this, 'Follow ski patrol guidelines' could also easily trip you up.
The Val d'Isere website for example states on the subject of off piste:
'For anyone who has mastered the basics of ski or snowboard technique – it’s easier than you imagine – leave the prepared pistes and head off into untracked powder with a local, qualified guide.'
If that is interpreted by the insurer as ski patrol guidelines, which wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if when asked ski patrol point them in the direction of a statement like that, then that rules out off piste skiing without a guide in Val d'Isere.
Other resorts do take a different tack, Chamonix for example is more open to off piste skiing without a guide:
'The high mountains are very accessible here. Chamonix has a highly pragmatic attitude to off piste activity. Every individual is responsible for their own safety. Do not rely on others unless they are qualified and hired for that purpose. Get insured and know how to call upon the emergency services should they be necessary. There are many crevasse and avalanche zones off-piste in the Chamonix valley.'
Basically, if you're going to ski off piste join the Austrian Alpine Club or similar and save yourself the hassle of worrying over all the small print and possible interprations
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In Val d'Isere, Grand Pre? and I think at the top of the Mt Vallon Gondola in 3V I have seen signs that say ski area ends here, in places where popular off piste routes start. I think that does clearly state a boundary.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
In that case aren't we overthinking the issue?
If a pisteur arrives, then you are clearly 'within the resort boundaries', and so covered by your insurance to meet the cost of recovery / treatment
If not, then the rescue is free, so you don't have to worry about the cost. (And the treatment ought to be covered by the GHIC arrangement)
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Repatriation wouldn't be covered for the outside resort boundaries accident, which could be very expensive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Think there are two types of insurance being discussed intertwined here.
- Rescue insurance (blood bucket, St. Bernard, helicopter). This can be purchased as a add-on to your lift pass in France (of included in specialist defined off-piste insurance)
- Medical insurance. Does not cover off-piste, unless specifically defined which we agree is vague. EHIC card will provide emergency public health cover for skiing anywhere but will exclude things like repatriation (i think)
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
In that case aren't we overthinking the issue?
If a pisteur arrives, then you are clearly 'within the resort boundaries', and so covered by your insurance to meet the cost of recovery / treatment
If not, then the rescue is free, so you don't have to worry about the cost. (And the treatment ought to be covered by the GHIC arrangement) |
Hard to over think insurance. I like a policy which is clear cut. As pointed out by pieman666, repatriation can be expensive. Furthermore, if you have an accident, you can be distinctly under the weather - and it's nice to have a decent insurance company project managing your case .... assuming that it still is, of course.
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@Ozboy, off-piste cover didn't use to be vague with BMC insurance. On the contrary it was crystal clear. Quite a while since I skied off piste through, so I haven't used it recently.
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@achilles, just looked at BMC and insurance for a European annual multi-trip for £279 which is not bad as it includes mountain biking and other mountain activities as well as cycle racing as I also do timed events in Europe. This also includes annual membership. I need to read the fine print but it clearly states off-piste with or without a guide. I need to understand if there are any complexities about being double insured for most of the (“non-extreme”) travel insurance components as I have travel insurance with Natwest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It would cost my family £546.97 for BMC annual policy (including family membership of £69.80 which is a requirement for a family policy). LV Premium policy was £150.23
Now, of course my £150 policy may prove very expensive when I have to make a claim. But it's a notable price difference.
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@Ozboy, when I last insured with BMC their policy was modular- you could opt out of some elements that might be covered by other insurance. Double insurance would have to be declared in the event of a claim of course - whereupon the insurance companies would liaise with each other.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
It would cost my family £546.97 for BMC annual policy (including family membership of £69.80 which is a requirement for a family policy). LV Premium policy was £150.23
Now, of course my £150 policy may prove very expensive when I have to make a claim. But it's a notable price difference. |
The price difference reflects how much more it covers, apples to oranges.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| The concept of “resort boundary” does not apply in Europe |
| Quote: |
| Most piste maps bear no resemblance to a topographic map - so they would not be definitive. |
But in the context of arguing with an insurance company using the phrase "resort boundary" when they don't know what that phrase means then I would point to the piste map as an indicator.
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You know it makes sense.
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We can all acknowledge the flaws in resort boundary as a concept for Europe particularly in interconnected resorts. But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley.
It's not ideal but in reality the only ruinous error you can make is in heli-bills, given EHIC and assuming other costs may sting a bit but aren't catastrophic. And if you're concerned about that there is always the OAC.
In practice has anyone got any direct experience of where rescue from a offpiste accident was by pisteurs (or a heli called in by them) that a claim has been denied ? It would be informative if that were the main criteria. Does anyone even report GPS co-ordinates etc in claim?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Layne, I have BMC insurance largely for the mountaineering and rock climbing cover. That it also does skiing, including off piste is a bonus. It is, however, very expensive. It would be worth checking that the LV insurance covers activities such as Via Ferrata. In the Dolomites many marked foorpaths may contain a section of ferrata.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If, on that map (I haven't zoomed in and looked too closely), there is a run to the extreme edges (lift to top and marked piste back down or pisted run to the valley bottom and a lift out), then you could draw a boundary and argue with the insurance company that it was a resort boundary. If I was skiing within this hypothetical boundary either on or off piste and suffered an injury or loss that I wanted to claim for then in the absence of any clearer definition I would use my hypothetical boundary (man on the Clapham Omnibus reasoning?).
I can understand that it is a tricky definition and open to interpretation but for the most part it is a hypothetical argument since most of us will never need to resort (no pun intended) to it.
Looks a lovely area snowball hope to get there some day 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| We can all acknowledge the flaws in resort boundary as a concept for Europe particularly in interconnected resorts. But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley. |
This from ^ @Dave of the Marmottes,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
But we all know when we are going beyond "routine" offpiste e.,g hiking above the top lift or into a non-liftserved valley.
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So vallee blanche would be fair game?
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I would use my hypothetical boundary
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It doesn't matter what you or me consider the resort boundary. The LV example clearly says it's whatever the resort considers it to be. So unless you get an answer from an individual resort (which may be - "once you leave the piste you're on your own") you are just guessing. Do you really want to take that risk?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Layne,
| Quote: |
The crucial bit is "following ski patrol guidelines" - so don't ignore warnings or clearly closed off areas.
Otherwise anything that is lift served is fine.
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The two skiers in La Plagne, they weren't on a piste so the area that they were on wasn't closed, it was lift accessed and for the sake of argument we will assume that they didn't pass a specific warning other than the general avalanche risk. If they held insurance that covered off piste without a guide but with the OP's clause "You are covered to ski and snowboard off piste and at a snow park provided you are within the ski area boundaries of a recognised ski resort and following ski patrol guidelines." would you be expecting the insurance to pick up the costs, including a heli flight, associated with their accident?
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=159958#4960803 Thread with skiers that I am referring to
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 11-04-22 9:47; edited 1 time in total
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Occasionally you see those signs that say "au déla de cette limit vous quittez la domaine skiable" which has always confused me slightly as it implies a sort of inbounds responsibility which I didn't think was in place in Europe.
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We used thees guys this season
https://www.assurmix.com/ski-insurance/solution-ski-insurance-assurski
Note at the foot of the page states:
Practice Extreme activities and sports competitions Off-piste Skiing, Snowpark, Free Ride, Heliski, Ski Touring. Assurski covers all these practices without the need for a guide (ski instructor or mountain guide), on marked trails and not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had a series of fruitless conversations with Dog Tag insurance, some years ago. They said that skiing against any local warnings would not be covered. I pointed out there were always avalanche risk warning, sometimes with high risk, sometimes low risk. They were adamant that if there were ANY avalanche warning, however low the risk, you'd be skiing off piste against local advice so they'd not be responsible.
I gave up at that point. There is a lot of ambiguity and the sensible thing to do (France) is to buy Carte Neige or Carré Neige with your lift pass, as well as having normal travel insurance. The daily price is the equivalent of a cup of coffee (a lot less if you frequent those swanky Courchevel places).
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| rambotion wrote: |
@Layne,
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The crucial bit is "following ski patrol guidelines" - so don't ignore warnings or clearly closed off areas.
Otherwise anything that is lift served is fine.
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The two skiers in La Plagne, they weren't on a piste so the area that they were on wasn't closed, it was lift accessed and for the sake of argument we will assume that they didn't pass a specific warning other than the general avalanche risk. If they held insurance that covered off piste without a guide but with the OP's clause "You are covered to ski and snowboard off piste and at a snow park provided you are within the ski area boundaries of a recognised ski resort and following ski patrol guidelines." would you be expecting the insurance to pick up the costs, including a heli flight, associated with their accident?
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=159958#4960803 Thread with skiers that I am referring to |
The ski patrol guidelines bit is a red herring in this case. They were off piste, and ops first post clearly states "speaking to the lift pass company they 'only have responsibility for the pistes'". So by definition outside the ski resort boundary. So no I wouldn't expect the insurance company to cover it.
"Inside resort area boundary" is clearly terminology set up for n American resorts, and I can see why it creates confusion in Europe resorts. That said there are plenty of comprehensive insurance options that don't leave any doubt (e.g. post by windofchange). You can just use one of them and know you are covered. Some people would rather play mental gymnastics to try and make their current or cheaper option insurance fit their needs, but it's not worth the risk.
Edit: looks like the la plage skiers were actually on an open piste! So yes I would expect their insurance to cover them in that case.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@boarder2020, I am in complete agreement with you here, my post was meant to be fairly rhetorical to point out how any insurance which mentions 'ski patrol guidelines' is so ambiguous as to be worthless. Had these two been skiing off piste they probably wouldn't have broken any guidelines* but they still got a personal rebuttal from the resort director after the accident which you would imagine an insurance company using this clause would find to be sufficient reason to deny a pay out. However, as they do appear to have been skiing on piste using this as an example has not worked particularly well
*unless the guidelines are to always stay on marked and open pistes, in which case the insurance in question is worthless for skiing off piste
**I hope that the two skiers in this accident in have fairly comprehensive insurance so that they do not have to prove that the resort director was lying/mistaken when he said that they were off piste
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
unless the guidelines are to always stay on marked and open pistes, in which case the insurance in question is worthless for skiing off piste
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In effect I'd say that all policies with that "American-based" wording is worthless for off piste in Europe. And even with Carré Neige, which would get you off the hill, a UK-based insurer could decline to pay medical and other costs if they considered you were skiing outwith their guidelines.
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I think it's more an and/or thing. For example in n American resorts I've seen signs saying things along the lines of "caution low snow cover/exposed rock, alternate route/download on gondola recommended". While the area is technically "open" you could argue ski patrol are advising against it, and that overrides the area being within the boundary.
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You know it makes sense.
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Seeing that this thread has come back to life reminded me that with further enquiries i did get a bit more clarity, from La Rosiere where we skiied in Jan...
Their piste security peeps said in reply to questions regarding what were the limits on assistance from the resort teams (therefore by inferance the boundary)...,
"Concerning the off pist:
- The ski area is the area accessible by gravity from the top of the ski lifts until reaching obstacle (usually a cliff or a rocky ridge). If you climb above this limit (by walk, hiking…) you are out of the ski area, and it will be another rescue patrol (like the PGHM…)"
Still not a hard boundary but some confirmation as to what area the resort sees as their responsibility. This ties in with the phrase in the pistehors link from Rabotion regarding the mountain law.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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That is a useful definition for piste rescue, @JonA, but not for who pays for it.....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stevew wrote: |
| In Val d'Isere, Grand Pre? and I think at the top of the Mt Vallon Gondola in 3V I have seen signs that say ski area ends here, in places where popular off piste routes start. I think that does clearly state a boundary. |
Don't know about the former, but I think the signs at Mont Vallon are more to do with the fact that it is in the middle of a National Park, with any descent from there other than on-piste being prohibited. I don't recall signs on the edge of the domain elsewhere in 3V.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would immediately stop using any insurer who had agents that commented in the first person.
“…be areas where you are told don’t go to so we wouldn’t want you to go in those areas”
It reveals a subjectivity defined by what a bunch of humans “want” and not what is defined in writing.
Whilst some form of judgement will be present in all claims; this to me is a signal that you’re in the lap of the insurance Gods should the unthinkable happen and they have a tendency to seek to minimise their losses.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
A very good post.
At which point does the jurisdiction of the resort ski patrol end?
That to me would be the resort boundary.
I'm not sure of the answer exactly but comfortable that anywhere I ski off piste they would cover. |
Carre Neige insurance in the 3 Valleys (via the lift ticket office) covers off piste rescue provided that the ski patrol can reach you from a ski lift.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Bergmeister, The medical fees is to cover whats not covered by your GHIC or in our case Carte Vitale.
When one of our lads broke his back and was helicoptered to the hospital in Annemasse, he was in hospital for a week or so, had a bunch of procedures, and then had physio and checkups etc. The hospital bill outstanding after Carte Vital was €800, and the insurance mopped this up no problem. Normally if its long or expensive treatment they'll repatriate you and your local provide will pay for it ( NHS ) I guess in your case.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| JonA wrote: |
| ...The ski area is the area accessible by gravity from the top of the ski lifts... |
Being pedantic that would make the very top section of the Zore blue piste at the top of the Super-Morzine gondola would be 'outside the ski area' - the chair stops about a meter below the top of the run. 
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In France the legal defenition of who is responsible for what is. The resort is responsible for terrain accesible by gravity from the top lift. The commune is responsible for any terrain withing the commune boundry, but it defers responsibility for skiable terrain withing the ski resort to the resort. Things get messy when the resort crosses many commune boundries and even more so when it crosses Prefecture boundries. International boundries are resonably cut and dried when it comes to responsibility.....accept the Le Tour ski area in Cham 
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| Quote: |
The resort is responsible for terrain accesible by gravity from the top lift.
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Presumably you have to ski in the direction of another lift? For example if I took the brevent lift at Chamonix and instead of dropping back east towards the lift infrastructure dropped the backside of the ridge heading west completely away from the resort I wouldn't have any expectations of the resort being responsible for my rescue. In fact I'd argue the top of that ridge is a kind of natural boundary.
In regards to the original point of what insurance covers - good luck trying to get your insurance to cover something like ensa couloir because "it was accessible by gravity from the top lift so it's within the ski area boundary".
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FAQ
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I was about to sign up (particularly as it would cover via Ferrata and mountain biking) until I spotted the medical fees limitation. We have SCGB insurance (annual policy) but that's limited to 45 days skiing per annum and excludes via ferrata (& mountain biking). They actually wanted £900 extra (for two of us) to cover via Ferrata! 
Yet VF must surely be one of the safest mountain activities (ie being attached to the mountain at all times...)
