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FatMap on device?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
adithorp wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:

...My stance hasn't changed.


Is anybody surprised?


Congratulations on making your first contribution to the thread so vacuous Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
By the way, this amused me...

fat-map.com wrote:
The terrain is complex and a good sense of direction along with navigation skills is essential. A map is essential and you should not rely on FATMAP as your only means of navigation

https://fatmap.com/guidebooks/5741/freeriding-verbier/adventures/routeid/23301/hidden-valley

Not least given that "phat-map" shamelessly plagiarised the text of their Verbier route descriptions from a well-known guide book Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap wrote:
BobinCH wrote:

Then you said you actually use an app yourself and they’re great but make sure you’ve got a map and compass as a backup
So to give you credit you did get to the right answer in the end wink


Charged your battery yet boy? Laughing

Scroll back. My stance hasn't changed.
Apps not a substitute for map & compass.


Some rescue tech to go with your map and compass wink
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homing_pigeon

Although I can appreciate that faffing around trying to locate some rocky outcrop on your map is a good excuse to be the last one back to the bar Very Happy
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@Haggis_Trap, you know things have moved on in the world of phones, and batteries can now last a good few days, plus you can carry small power-packs, so you should probably upgrade your old phone if it's anything like the one below Laughing

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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Weathercam wrote:
...so you should probably upgrade your old phone if it's anything like the one below Laughing


Another heli-rescue in Glencoe last night.
No map + compass plus flat battery meant team couldn't contact them.



https://www.facebook.com/glencoemountainrescueteam
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Well if it were dark they wouldn't be able to read a map or compass, would they rolling eyes

I think it's actually a case of being prepared rather than a map & compass being the life saviour.

Though it is always amazing how many idiots come to grief in your little hills Very Happy
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BobinCH wrote:
... is a good excuse to be the last one back to the bar Very Happy


I am going to call "bro-brah bull s--t" on that Laughing

Do you either:

A) Ski all day with phone turned on following phat-map like a chimp?
Hardly great from EMI interference perspective.
B) Turn phone on every-time there is navigation decision to be made.
Requiring a 6-12min delay for satellites to get accurate fix.

Neither of the above very satisfactory, nor best practise.
So : Let me explain how I would navigate. Imagine we are going to Grand Combins.
Its a 2 day ski tour - so I don't really want phone consuming GPS for the full trip.
Would rather phone remained available for primary purpose in emergency (calling for help).

Navigation process would be like this:

1) Night before I would look at trip-reports / fat-map & paper maps <etc> so the route clear in my head.

2) Once we start ski touring my phone would be off in backpack (no EMI interference / reduced risk of lost phone or flat battery).
Its glacial terrain where the risk of avalanche or serac fall is high.

3) I would have paper map (folded at right page in a protective case) in breast pocket of my jacket.
This would be a useful reference point for any navigation decisions. Plus I can keep my gloves on without scrolling.
Taking map / compass out of pocket for a quick glance takes no more than 30 seconds.

4) 90% of the time an occasional glance at papermap is all I would need.
Especially with modern weather forecasts the chance of being caught by bad weather are much reduced.

5) Now, lets imagine that a snow storm rolled in. This is the point where I might think about firing up the GPS to get a location fix.
Technology is there to be used. If things got really wild then I may follow GPS track back to hut etc.
However the number of times I end up in such scenario are minimal.

FWIW : I have had various GPS units for 20+ years now
The technology is fantastic - and on more than one occasion I have been very grateful to have it.
Though I do actively try to avoid using it as a crutch.

Though this thread was never about "fat-map" vs. "paper-map".
Rather the argument is that apps (as good as they are) don't replace the requirement to carry a paper-map / compass.
Those playing the dinosaur card presumably suggesting otherwise ?


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-11-21 12:41; edited 2 times in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Weathercam wrote:
Well if it were dark they wouldn't be able to read a map or compass, would they rolling eyes

you can see it might have stopped them being benighted in first place ? rolling eyes
though post did suggest a head torch also a good idea at this time of year.

Weathercam wrote:
I think it's actually a case of being prepared rather than a map & compass being the life saviour.

so the Mountain rescue teams are incorrect to suggest punters depending on phone-apps as only navigation tool are a major cause of call outs ?

Weathercam wrote:
Though it is always amazing how many idiots come to grief in your little hills Very Happy

.... often idiots from down your way wink
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Show me anywhere in this thread were anyone has advocated not taking a map.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
adithorp wrote:
Show me anywhere in this thread were anyone has advocated not taking a map.


for sure...

Weathercam wrote:
I always find it interesting when everyone says take a map/learn to use a map etc and don't rely on an app


though lets not go round the loop again.

3 pages in and several posters persist with spurious strawman argument that carrying a map means you are dinosaur / luddite / slower / anti-technology <etc>
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
<shrug> In my own personal experience of fell rescue at least, call-outs were caused mostly by people making mistakes,
and occasionally by "happenstance". I rescued many people equipped with maps and compasses and all those things, but that
doesn't make those devices dangerous either.

ht wrote:
An app not a map. .... Though this thread was never about "fat-map" vs. "paper-map".

I'm starting to get the feeling that GPS was probably rolled out after your 30th birthday.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Doesn't say don't take a map though does it?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
philwig wrote:

I'm starting to get the feeling that GPS was probably rolled out after your 30th birthday.


Nope - I am 43 and been using GPS since the first Garmin standalone units were released (circa 1998/99).
Already said, on the very first page, that I do use several apps for navigation.
Though rather than debate the issues raised (EMI, battery life, lost phone) you selective misquote me for the 2nd time in attempt to create a strawman.

Go f--k yourself, I have better things to do than reply to such ad-hom nonsense.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Haggis_Trap,

Thanks for your explanation. You seem to like your map and are well practiced with it. Good for you. I’ll use my app because for a “chimp” like me without your navigation skills and glove / map dexterity it’s just better and easier to use IMO (you might want to Google touring glove that works with a phone - most of them do wink )

You really should invest in a phone that can manage more than a few hours at low temps, and/or take a replacement battery pack. I take both.

Also use my phone to take (lots of pictures), check the weather, call my helicopter pilot etc. I want it on in my pocket, not off in my backpack. Haven’t dropped it down a crevasse yet! Fortunately my touring mates also have phones in the case that I did.

Not sure if you watched the video but there was no interference between the phone and sending beacon even when they were right next to each other. My phone sits in a thigh pocket far from my transceiver. But thanks for the video - I will test it myself to be sure.

I’m going to dust off my map and compass as fully agree it’s an insurance policy but fear it wouldn’t be much use in a whiteout.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
BobinCH wrote:

Thanks for your explanation. You seem to like your map and are well practiced with it. Good for you. I’ll use my app because for a “chimp” like me without your navigation skills and glove / map dexterity it’s just better and easier to use IMO (you might want to Google touring glove that works with a phone - most of them do wink )


Cool - each to their own.
So long as you actually have a map / compass then its all good.

BobinCH wrote:
You really should invest in a phone that can manage more than a few hours at low temps, and/or take a replacement battery pack. I take both..


Maybe I already do? Motorola G8 power (5000mA battery) plus battery pack. Basically the longest lasting android phone available.
Though after 2 days with GPS in the cold it will be needing juice. Personally I prefer phone off when touring.

BobinCH wrote:
Not sure if you watched the video but there was no interference between the phone and sending beacon even when they were right next to each other. My phone sits in a thigh pocket far from my transceiver. But thanks for the video - I will test it myself to be sure.


Correct. Interference is worst when searching rather than transmitting.
Though in panic of a real avalanche worrying about everyone in party turning phone off wastes time.

FWIW : I work in micro-electronics and have done EMI testing for automotive applications.
Part of the problem is there are minimal standards / testing for consumer electronics in 457KHz band.
So you have absolutely no idea what chaos your iPhone / Go-Pro might be causing.

BobinCH wrote:
I’m going to dust off my map and compass as fully agree it’s an insurance policy but fear it wouldn’t be much use in a whiteout.


Good. We are in general agreement wink
Though with a little practice you might be surprised how effective paper-map & compass can be in whiteout. People managed that way for decades. Luckily modern weather forecasts make such scenarios less common. Still a core skill for anyone doing Winter ML / BASI Mountain Safety assessment etc.
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