 Poster: A snowHead
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Thought I'd start a post about tree Wells. They're dangerous, and IMHO underreported/known about. I've never fallen in one, and wouldn't have a clue how to get out. Anyway, any experiences/info?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Snowboarders - tie string to the release mechanism of binding & run it up the inside your trousers. You can then pull the string, release from the binding
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@joffy69, They're not generally something you come across in Europe, more common in N. America, and Japan I guess?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was warned when heli-skiing and touring in Canada, but the subject wasn't brought up in Japan. You need a very specific set of circumstances for them to form.
There is a dedicated website for them.
https://deepsnowsafety.org/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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yeah, not generally a European thing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Tom Doc wrote: |
| @joffy69, They're not generally something you come across in Europe, more common in N. America, and Japan I guess? |
Yeah, I think that’s right. A guy from the avalanche commission told me that tree wells like you find in the US were a pretty rare, but that you can get a similar phenomenon with the larch trees that get bent over by the weight of the snow that’s a bit more common. He said someone died a few years ago after getting caught up in one.
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@Tom Doc +1
Not a Euro-phenomenon - the biggest dump tree days in Europe don’t have that dry light snow carried by branches necessary to bury an upturned skier in a well.
Definitely something to be alert to when you’re cat/heli-skiing in North America - that was my first encounter with tree-well warnings. Never experienced one first hand but it’s not on my wish-list
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Has been done here before somewhere.
In BC back country where there are gladed trees there will be tree wells. It's best not to fall in them. You can minimize that chance, for example complete your turns below wells not above them. Riding in pairs with a "buddy system" also reduces the risk. If you fall in, then it's not like an avalanche: you can still move and there's only the powder you're bringing down, so you can make an airspace and wait for your mates to come get you. It's easier to get out going downhill than going up, and the same's true for getting someone out of one.
I've seen lots of people fall in wells, mostly harmlessly. I've had to help pull a few people out but maybe only once or twice has it been seriously dangerous. I once had someone crash into a well in front of me whilst I was shooting photographs. I yelled at him to see if he was ok - he was - and suggested he wait until I'd shot the next skier, which he was fine with. Then I went to get him out. I have been in the vicinity of a few fatalities.
I think snowboarders are more at risk overall although there are several factors which may be behind that.
They're pretty well known about by people who need to know, if you see what I mean.
They tend to report them along with other "Non-avalanche-related snow immersion deaths": NARSID.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Treewells are a specialty of the Pacific NW due to our terrain being almost entirely below treeline and having mostly coniferous evergreens that are well-designed to make this happen, as well as multi-day storms that can accumulate several feet, completing the recipe. Heed the warnings, to exactly the same extent you would do so off-piste in the Alps. I've seen the sky go black as I augered into one and cycled in and out of panic as I choked. Lucky to get myself out as my buddy had no idea. We were trying, but the buddy system is, in practical terms, to notice you haven't been seen lately, so the search area will be much smaller. They probably won't see you go down or hear you. I still ski close to the trees but my experience has made me a little more selective, most days  .
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We've had a number of tree well deaths at Whitefish. The big thing people supposedly using the buddy system don't realize is how damn long it takes to get back uphill in unconsolidated snow that is crotch deep if you take off your skis. Meanwhile, your friend is suffocating. "Meet me at the lift" is frankly the same as saying, "You're on your own."
Everyone wants to get into the trees and whoop it up. Yeah? Where is Harry?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 24-10-21 0:41; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tree wells suck. I've been in one, where my life was not in danger but it was still a good 15 minutes of hard physical effort to extricate myself.
My crime - taking a rat track exit through trees late in the day. Ski caught a buried branch and bounced me off the traverse. Fortunately because of "head up" awareness or luck I kinda flopped rather than going in head first.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Tree Wells are a pet one of mine. Learned quite a bit about them when I was in Mt.Baker.
It's really hard to mitigate the risk they pose beyond not going into areas where you may encounter deep snow, as someone always ends up being tail-end Charlie.
Worth pointing out that the risk for kids is also higher - what's hip deep for you is potentially chest deep for the Jnrs and it's a tempting playground when the weathers off.
Being aware is the best defence as always.
http://www.deepsnowsafety.org/index.php/tree-wells
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You know it makes sense.
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A friend of ours died in a tree well at Whitefish a few years ago, whilst his family was waiting for him at the lift. It was a typical tree well death, he had a buddy but they got separated in the trees , it was early afternoon/ lunchtime when people were pushing lines, it was at Whitefish. It was 20m from the piste, he was extremely experienced skier and one of the best skiers I have ever skied with. Really sad; his kids were in our ski club.
Note that if you are with a buddy, they have to be really close as hiking up in deep powder is v difficult. echoing sibhusky.
Certain resorts are known for it and have seasons with a few deaths and seasons with none, as its closely related to snow conditions and pack.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The season I lived in Whistler (98-99) we (all seasonal staff) were given a formal warning lecture about tree wells as they were killing about 5 a season. That season I fell in a few, but always on skis (on a snowboard I stayed far enough away from them). The worst took me over half an hour to dig myself out of, and I was fit, very fit.
My 3 seasons guiding in Japan they were a danger, but only around coniferous trees. I didn't end up stuck in any but bounced through them, wider skis and stronger technique.
Did spend a fair amount of time extracting stuck clients from them. I guided on very fat skis and always carried skins for this very reason. Calling the Cat might take to long and if the snow was that deep then a snowmobile was of NO use.
As others may have mentioned, more dangerous to borders than skiers.
If you realy get in a deep one, you need to be able to undo your board of skis while stuck upside down and without breathing (if you are unlucky).
Early season in Whistler friends came up with a self exctract test for each other. You strapped into your board and 2 (strong) or 4 (normal) people held it up so you were hanging from it. Only climbers and then only strong climbers could get their board off, and this was done in the warm indoors!
In Europe we have crevases, in soem resorts they are rock not ice but just as dangerous and a lot less predictable than tree wells, hence they kill a lot more.. Everyone I know living in the Alps long term has lost someone they know to crevases!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've been told, always turn downhill from the tree. Basically try not to turn where the well / is downhill and easy to fall into. If you get in a well don't kick more snow on top of yourself. People die of asphyxia rapidly and hypothermia slowly, I'm told in roughly equal numbers.
Have tried skiing with buddies but we often end up too far apart if someone is drowning.
Personally I carry a rape alarm with the hope that if I end up in one I can make a ton of noise and get some help ? Avoid hypothermia. This is something I made up.
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