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Schengen 90-days-in-180 'tourist' limit - multivisit-exUK: best/cheapest way to exceed 90-in-180?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
If anyone knows a viable route to do this by applying for a visa as a 'tourist', I'd be obliged to hear of it.

It would take a weight off my mind.

My first country of visit in each of several trips - and the last - would be France.

I'd like to do more than 90 days in Schengen over the season’s months at a less-than-punitive cost. Say 48 or more in France in various places or in transit; the remainder of 90-plus elsewhere and over multiple visits.

What are my options?

I've been to https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/france-visas/ai-je-besoin-d-un-visa and I'm none the wiser on the best way forward. (long stay 99 euros just to apply? No guarantee you'll get it? Is that it?)

(Edited to clarify the question in the thread title)


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 7-10-21 9:15; edited 7 times in total
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@Fat George, not sure exactly what the query is, you can apply for an extended tourist visa, think it about £100.

My BIl was moaning about this 6 months ago, but just applied, provided the required paperwork and now has a visa for himself and his partner, due to travel to France this week for most of the winter months and into next spring.

The link you provided above is I think the one I sent to him, click the buttons and it tells you what's required.
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@ansta1 Thanks. Good to hear your BIL got it! I think we crossed posts as I was editing.

I did think it was also a case of money, but I was also asking myself if it'd be worth it for the extra days over the 90, and whether there are any hidden bureaucratic wrinkles:
e.g. more than a certain amount of time needs to be spent in France else they won't give it me?

I've calculated the days as they stand as per my OP.
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@Fat George, not sure, but I think one of the wrinkles is you may have to apply for different visa for each country if you are going to be done go over the limit, not i expect a problem unless you are planning to spend over a year In schengen area over multiple countries, but admittedly I don't know or have I explored the actual details and intricacies in that respect.
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@Fat George, watching this thread with interest. I'd also spent some idle time looking at the possibilities of using a long-stay tourist visa to extend the limitiations of 90/180.

There's some information here:

https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/tourism-private-stay

But the problem may be where it says:

"If the duration of your stay does not exceed 90 days per 180-day period, you will be issued a short-stay uniform Schengen visa..." and "If the total duration of your stay exceeds 90 days, you will be issued a long-stay national visa."

Which may suggest that the stay in France needs to exceed 90/180 otherwise you just get a standard Schengen visa - which then doesn't help. So in @ansta1's BIL's case they are staying in France for the extended duration - so over 90 days.

If a long-stay national visa were to be awarded then my understanding is that any time spent in France doesn't count towards the 90/180 in the other Schengen countries. A further difficulty would be getting your passport stamped with the correct exit stamps, particularly if the trip into France begins with arrival in Geneva (i.e. with a Swiss Schengen entry stamp but then no exit stamp as you pass into France?)

It seems this kind of workaround may be possible but most likely where you are basing yourself in France for an extended period and then travelling around the rest of Europe from France, and also where your first point of entry is into France.

More questions than any real information I'm afraid.
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One of the FR long stay visas which I’ve gone for is for 3 to 6 months. This will see me through the ski season. Time spent in FR in the visa period does not count against the 90/180. Suits me perfectly.
If you plan to spend more than 90 days in any combination of other countries, then you’d need to seek separate visa cover there.
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As usefully posted elsewhere:

rjs wrote:
@Fat George, I thought that the process was to apply for a tourist visa to one EU country then use your 90/180 Schengen allowance for any other countries you want to visit. . .


This very well may be what the French ‘visa wizard’ says somewhere, but I haven’t found it there yet.
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@Mun_keh!
Thank you; very helpful.

I suspected it wasn’t as straightforward as some people were saying.

I’ve been planning on going out for four trips or maybe more over the season.
Trips of several weeks each.
Two would be skiing in France.
One travelling through France to ski in Austria/Italy.
One skiing in Italy then France.
But coming back to the UK for 2/3/4 weeks in between.

First day to last day is 140 days.
Maybe that would qualify for ‘long visit’ from a French point of view, but at this point, I’m not sure it really does.
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@Grinning:
Looks good, but please would you clarify a wee bit?
::
Are you going to be based out in France for 3 months plus, on a more-or-less continuous basis?
Were you having a long rental you could quote on the application, for example?
Or would you be dipping in and out of France from UK for shorter trips on an ad-hoc basis to various destinations, e.g. in hotels?
Could you say what you think were the conditions of your application that got it through successfully?
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@Fat George - own flat and I’ll be there Nov/Dec then Feb through May with trips elsewhere and to UK but easily over 90 days for the Feb through May spell. Can’t apply for visa more than three months ahead of start. Start will be beginning of February. Applying beginning of Nov.
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@Grinning
Ok, thanks.

I guess you will meet the ‘based in France 3 months’ criterion as given in @Mun_keh!’s post above, and also an owner of French property, then.

Sadly, I won’t meet the same criteria.
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Fat George wrote:
@Mun_keh!
Thank you; very helpful.

I suspected it wasn’t as straightforward as some people were saying.

I’ve been planning on going out for four trips or maybe more over the season.
Trips of several weeks each.
Two would be skiing in France.
One travelling through France to ski in Austria/Italy.
One skiing in Italy then France.
But coming back to the UK for 2/3/4 weeks in between.

First day to last day is 140 days.
Maybe that would qualify for ‘long visit’ from a French point of view, but at this point, I’m not sure it really does.


As long as your total winter in the (Shengen) Alps isn’t more than 90 days, I can’t see how that would be a problem. As long as you don’t do more than 90 in 180 you're good to go, surely?
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Hi all . Not sure if this will help some of you or you already are aware of this. The 90/180 rule is not that straight forward to calculate if you are not in the area for a continuous period. This calculator may help : https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/calculator.htm?lang=en
Read the users guide first . There are some apps out there . Although written for Spanish tourists this article may be of use https://www.benidormseriously.com/schengen-visa-calculator
Good Luck !
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The 90/180 rule is simple. It is a rolling period counting backwards and based on current date.
So say today, if you have been in Schengen for 90 days in the previous 180 it is time to leave. It doesn't matter how long each individual trip is.
Planning ski trips. Work back 180 days from last day you will be skiing. Say 30 March. So 90 days from approx 1 October to 30 March. But then going back for summer will require a gap.
I have the FR VLS-T visa for 6 months. But you have to be mainly in France. Cost for 2 around £250, plus travel.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Can anyone tell how long after the visit to the visa centre it took for your passport to be returned.
I’ve filled out most of the required forms and collected the required documents.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi all: perhaps some here are missing the point of this thread?

Perhaps this will clarify but no doubt opinions will differ.

Checking if your planned stay(s) is(are) within the 90/180 rule is simple enough to calculate, and anybody who can count can do that for themselves. Easy and obvious, if you will be within it or not, as others have pointed out. If I hadn’t known that, and hadn’t already done it, I would hardly have started this thread.

The point of this thread was to try and mine the snowHeads collective wisdom on how best to exceed the 90 days in 180, preferably easily and cheaply, on multiple visits to multiple countries, because that’s what I’m keen to do if I easily can. And, as I’m already pushing up against the 90, if I can’t, I won’t. I imagine that goes for others too, as suggested by @Mun_keh! above, too.

From the useful contributions above, that’s looking like it’s not so easy, maybe impossible, unless in the case say of France, one were staying more-or-less continuously in France for a period not less than 3 months, and also having France as the first Schengen country one were visiting for the 3 months, and paid to apply for and then got granted a French visa.
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@Fat George, as I understand it, the tourist visa is for a continuous longer stay only, and is a national visa, not a Schengen-wide visa. If you are planning for e.g. 110 days within a ski season, the first 90 will be no issue, but then beyond that you run into the bureaucratic problem of needing a long stay visa for one or more countries, and those countries not being prepared to issue you with one because your proposed stay is well under the 90 days. They may look at your travel history and decide to issue a long stay visa anyway to let you in, but I have doubts about it especially in the case of France.

It may prove to be simple to arrange this in the longer term, but for now it's trial and error and I'd not gamble on booking trips beyond the 90 day limit without either a visa in my hand, or a written confirmation from an embassy that they would look favourably on a visa application before the trip to extend your 90 days to 180.
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^Thanks for your apposite and helpful reply.
I’m feeling that way about gambling too, and probably won’t chance it unless there’s a pretty clear prior indication of success.
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Passports in the summer were taking around 10 days. I managed to get them back in 7. I would get TLS appointment 1 month prior to travel.
TLS London did suspend courier return as a couple got lost, so had to go back and collect.
Don't know if it has been reinstated.
You will know the evidence the FR requires - address, previous stays over 3 months etc.
Very few countries offer a long stay tourism visa. CH not yet. Estonia does!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Also, note that for France they require evidence of your travel and accommodation arrangements when you apply for the visa - you may have to make a reservation or provisional booking to demonstrate this, rather than having to book and paying in full before confirming that they'll let you in. For flights that can be painful, while for accommodation you may have to pay a deposit at least.
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Might be worth getting info from Facebooks groups comprising expats living in France (not just in ski areas). I searched "Brits living in France" and a few sites popped up, each with several thousand members.
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@blueski2, if they are expats then they have permanent residency rights and a permanent address in France, therefore they are neither visitors nor require a visa to enter France.
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@colinstone, Thanks. We are in Edinburgh so a quick 10 mins walk along Princess Street to the TLS place.
I need my passport from 5 Nov to 14 Nov then going out 25 November to Val d”isere. It’s going to be tight.
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@muppet, I thought that TLS E sent them down to London for processing and issuing visa??
I've been haranguing the Passport Office for the requirement for 2 passports because of your sort of timing.
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A Visa D does not require a long stay to be continuous. You can apply for a multi-entry Visa D for one country and visit other Schengen countries (visa free) in between.
If you want to exceed 90 days in 180 and to travel between different Schengen countries, this is possible, but only if the number of days that you spend in your most visited country (and for which you have obtained a visa) when subtracted from your total days in Schengen, leaves you a residual of 90 days or less. Example: 130 days in Schengen, including say 50 days in France, would be possible. If you applied to France for a six month, multi-entry visa, that would give you potentially up to 180 visa days in France, including up to 90 visa waiver days in the rest of the Schengen area. In this scenario you would not just apply for a 50 day French visa.
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North America - take your spending somewhere else if you are not welcome
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Austrian Seagull wrote:
A Visa D . . .


Maybe you’re a pro/student etc., but I can’t see how ‘Visa D’ could work for a ‘tourist’ skier intending making multiple visits, which is me, along with what I imagine to be the case for a lot of other folks on here too?

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-types/

National Visas
The national visa of “D” category is granted to the certain individuals who are to be studying, working or permanently residing in one of the Schengen countries. The national visa can be of a single entry, granted to the people who are in need of residing in the Schengen country for a certain period of time and for a sole purpose after which they shall return to their country. On the other hand a multi-entry national visa is also granted for certain individuals, allowing its holder to travel in and out of this Schengen country as he/she pleases and also travel throughout the whole Schengen Area without additional visa requirements.

In order to obtain a multi entry national visa, one must meet the certain criteria:
- An international student program will grant a visa for a period of not more than one year.
- An international student that is about to start a full course of studies in one of the Schengen countries. Again the visa is issued for a period of one year with the possibility of extending it.
- A pedagogical work at a higher institution or research center in any of the Schengen countries, regarding the person and its close family members.
- A professional who is traveling in any of the Schengen countries due to its expertise be it a sportsman, an artist or any other professional of its kind with the purpose of sharing its expertise.
- Emergency cases as a medical condition that prevents the individual leave the Schengen Area at the designated time frame.

==
Or have I got this all wrong?


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 7-10-21 14:37; edited 1 time in total
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countryman wrote:
. . . - take your spending somewhere else if you are not welcome


This had occurred to me and some other people too; but Japan was what was discussed not America: leave car at Schengen airport, joyous break out into non-Schengen ski zone, return to Schengen airport, etc. etc. staying within the accursed 90 days.

‘Twould get more skiing in admittedly, but doesn’t answer the actual question which was the point of the thread.
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@Fat George, My understanding is that some countries have extended the criteria to encompass non-working persons, retirees, second home owners, etc. I note that one of the options on the French application form is “Private stay/Visitor”, but I don’t know whether that would cover your situation. Another option is “Other ..”.
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@countryman, the US limit is still 90 days unless you apply for a full visa at a cost of $160, plus that assumes a single trip. No idea about Canada. Add in the increased flight, accommodation, lift pass and internal travel costs, and it pretty quickly becomes a question of doing two weeks in Italy/Austria or one week in the US or Canada.

Plus it's not a matter of whether you are welcome or not - most people are welcome, but apparently we voted to be treated like a non-EU country and so we will be.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Austrian Seagull wrote:
@Fat George, . . . extended the criteria . . .


If this is the form you referred to:

https://france-visas.gouv.fr/documents/66002/47558374/Cerfa-CS-EN+02.21.pdf/5608e9f9-59a1-8a2a-ce1d-3afaa3e58afc

then having read through all of it, I think I would probably just lose my 99 euro application fee without getting a visa?

If there’s some other form applicable for ‘D’ type that you know of, what is it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I’ll be based in France during the winter season with 3/4 trips to the UK and trips to other countries (EU & non-EU). Days in France will be >90/180.

This thread raises the issue (@ousekjarr/@Mun_keh!) that the stay for a temporary long stay visa should be a single stay…

Until this thread I had not seen that as a requirement.

Where does the apparent “single stay” requirement come from?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Fat George,
The FR visa application is at:
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/
Which is what I used.
The other document that they will require is "Project Details" giving your planned itinerary. I made sure that one stay is more than 3 months.
The Schengenvisa site is not an official site. For chapter and verse, read the Schengen Directive:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/399/oj
It isn't very long. Article 6 is important.
And read the language versions for the country(ies) you are visiting. It is not unknown for the English version of a Directive to be different from FR and DE versions.
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Grinning wrote:
This thread raises the issue (@ousekjarr/@Mun_keh!) that the stay for a temporary long stay visa should be a single stay…

Where does the apparent “single stay” requirement come from?


I wasn't particularly suggesting that it would need to be a single trip (other than perhaps it applied to some of the other folk who had managed to get a Long Stay Visa for that particular purpose) - rather that if you weren't going to exceed 90/180 in France alone then you may not get the Long Stay Visa.
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colinstone wrote:
@Fat George,
The FR visa application is at:
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/
. . .


Of course it is: after all, I did quote that site in my opening post?

colinstone wrote:
@Fat George,
.. . . read the Schengen Directive:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/399/oj. . .
It isn't very long. . . .


The link seems go somewhere but not to 2016/399 at the moment.
On the other hand the text of Article 6 seems to go like this:

Article 6 — Entry conditions for third-country nationals
For intended stays on the territory of the Member States of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period, which entails considering the 180-day period preceding each day of stay, the entry conditions for third-country nationals shall be the following:
they are in possession of a valid travel document entitling the holder to cross the border satisfying the following criteria:
its validity shall extend at least three months after the intended date of departure from the territory of the Member States. In a justified case of emergency, this obligation may be waived;
it shall have been issued within the previous 10 years;
they are in possession of a valid visa, if required pursuant to Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001(1), except where they hold a valid residence permit or a valid long-stay visa;
they justify the purpose and conditions of the intended stay, and they have sufficient means of subsistence, both for the duration of the intended stay and for the return to their country of origin or transit to a third country into which they are certain to be admitted, or are in a position to acquire such means lawfully;
they are not persons for whom an alert has been issued in the SIS for the purposes of refusing entry;
they are not considered to be a threat to public policy, internal security, public health or the international relations of any of the Member States, in particular where no alert has been issued in Member States’ national data bases for the purposes of refusing entry on the same grounds.
For the purposes of implementing paragraph 1, the date of entry shall be considered as the first day of stay on the territory of the Member States and the date of exit shall be considered as the last day of stay on the territory of the Member States. Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States.
A non-exhaustive list of supporting documents which the border guard may request from the third-country national in order to verify the fulfilment of the conditions set out in paragraph 1 (c) is included in Annex I.
Means of subsistence shall be assessed in accordance with the duration and the purpose of the stay and by reference to average prices in the Member State(s) concerned for board and lodging in budget accommodation, multiplied by the number of days stayed.
Reference amounts set by the Member States shall be notified to the Commission in accordance with Article 39.

The assessment of sufficient means of subsistence may be based on the cash, travellers’ cheques and credit cards in the third-country national’s possession. Declarations of sponsorship, where such declarations are provided for by national law and letters of guarantee from hosts, as defined by national law, where the third-country national is staying with a host, may also constitute evidence of sufficient means of subsistence.

By way of derogation from paragraph 1:
third-country nationals who do not fulfil all the conditions laid down in paragraph 1 but who hold a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall be authorised to enter the territory of the other Member States for transit purposes so that they may reach the territory of the Member State which issued the residence permit or the long-stay visa, unless their names are on the national list of alerts of the Member State whose external borders they are seeking to cross and the alert is accompanied by instructions to refuse entry or transit;
third-country nationals who fulfil the conditions laid down in paragraph 1, except for that laid down in point (b), and who present themselves at the border may be authorised to enter the territory of the Member States, if a visa is issued at the border in accordance with Articles 35 and 36 of Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council(2).
Member States shall compile statistics on visas issued at the border in accordance with Article 46 of Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 and Annex XII thereto.

If it is not possible to affix a visa in the document, it shall, exceptionally, be affixed on a separate sheet inserted in the document. In such a case, the uniform format for forms for affixing the visa, laid down by Council Regulation (EC) No 333/2002(3), shall be used;

third-country nationals who do not fulfil one or more of the conditions laid down in paragraph 1 may be authorised by a Member State to enter its territory on humanitarian grounds, on grounds of national interest or because of international obligations. Where the third-country national concerned is the subject of an alert as referred to in paragraph 1(d), the Member State authorising him or her to enter its territory shall inform the other Member States accordingly.
(1) Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement (OJ L 81, 21.3.2001, p. 1).
(2) Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 July 2009 establishing a Community Code on Visas (Visa Code) (OJ L 243, 15.9.2009, p. 1).
(3) Council Regulation (EC) No 333/2002 of 18 February 2002 on a uniform format for forms for affixing the visa issued by Member States to persons holding travel documents not recognised by the Member State drawing up the form (OJ L 53, 23.2.2002, p. 4).


Oof.
That’s not my idea of not very long, so was that some kind of joke? And anyway, it doesn’t seem to provide any extra useful information on top of what is already available above?
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@Fat George,
The EU Directives indicate the website isn't currently available for older Directives.
As Directives go, it isn't long!!
Sorry, thought you were getting tied up the Schengen visa form, instead of a FR D visa.
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Eh? What?

I’m going to have a couple of quiet hours away from the forum just in case I say something I might regret later.
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"EUR-Lex is temporarily not fully available. You can however access recent OJs."

My link was to the 2016 Directive.
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@Fat George,
Could you detail what dates you are planning to be in which countries?
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