We’re thinking of trying the snow train to get to resort for a change. Question is which resort?
Family of 4. Not interested in nightlife particularly but would like a choice of a few nice cafes and restaurants. If there’s stuff to do when not skiing that would be great. Would want an apartment. Won’t be hiring a car.
I’m a nervous intermediate and the rest (kids aged 17 and 20) are happy on more challenging terrain.
Any feedback on the train or suggested resorts would be much appreciated. Cheers
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@bambionskiis, it looks like the only way you'll be able to book the snow train service (if by that you mean the direct Eurostar service to Bourg Saint Maurice) will be via Travelski, which will offer packages of train, resort transfer and accommodation.
Eurostar will not be selling tickets direct to the public for this train service, as the train is being chartered by the company which owns Travelski and operate a wide range of accommodation and ski lifts in some of the large resorts. I'm sure they will be selling lots of options in the Trois Vallees resorts as well as Paradiski (Les Arcs and La Plagne), Espace Killy (Val d'sere and Tignes), and perhaps the smaller resorts of La Rosiere and St Foy. All offer a range of skiing, and relatively short transfers from Moutiers and Bourg Saint Maurice train stations.
One think to note, they will only be offering overnight train journeys, not daytime.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rob@rar, I think its Friday night out and then Saturday daytime back, presumably the same train does the journey to and fro.
@rob@rar, the outbound journey will be overnight, but my guess is that the return journey will be daytime on Saturday. Otherwise they would probably have to pay train rental for an extra 12 hours, and for blocking a platform at Bourg St Maurice all day Saturday.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The ‘TravelSki Express’ Ski Train
The new service will be known as the ‘TravelSki Express’, sold and operated by CdA subsidiary Travelski.com
It will depart from London Saint Pancras station at 19:45 on Friday nights, going non-stop to Moûtiers and Bourg Saint Maurice stations, arriving the following morning at 05:32 and 06:15 respectively. The return service leave on Saturday mornings in the opposite direction at 09:34 and 10:14 arriving in London at 16:13.
I really like the seat61 even if just for kicking tires as have only once taken the train (the true Skitrain - overnighter with disco) back in the 90s.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Am on the Snowcarbon mailing list and received this email earlier which has info about the "new" ski train.
"As you might have already heard, against all expectation, the Eurostar Ski Train will run this winter season. But it’s not going to be Eurostar running it.
For months, Eurostar was privately telling skiers that the train was cancelled and publicly saying that a decision had not been made. Secretly, behind the scenes, Compagnie des Alps (CDA), which operates the ski lifts in many French ski resorts, was negotiating with Eurostar about chartering the train. The Ski Train is going to be marketed by a French tour operator called Travelski, which is owned by CDA and the Ski Train rebranded as the ‘Travelski Express’.
On Friday a small announcement was made in the French media, and yesterday I learned more at a special press event about the new service, where I met the Travelski’s CEO, Guillaume de Marcillac and, along with other ski journalists, asked some questions.
I’ll tell you all that I know so far and, for what it’s worth, some thoughts.
Why has this happened?
As you’ll know, when the Ski Train was cancelled last year, I co-founded the Save The Ski Train campaign. French ski resorts, mayors and politicians tried to lobby Eurostar to continue to run the train this season. Eurostar, in tough financial waters due to the pandemic, wasn’t going to run it. It seems that CDA spotted an opportunity to both keep the Ski Train running, and to grow its share of the UK ski market.
Tickets – only as part of a Travelski package
The only way to buy tickets for the Travelski Express is as part of a Travelski package with train, accommodation, transfer and a seven-day ski pass all included. Tickets can’t be purchased independently. Nor can you book rail-ski packages for the Travelski Express with other ski tour operators. However, Travelski is planning to talk to some UK ski travel agencies about selling these packages on Travelski’s behalf.
Travelski says: “Travelski Express packages will be bookable online and via our call-centre later in September and the packages will be fully ABTA bonded for the peace of mind of our customers.”
The downside of this is that other ski tour operators and independent accommodation providers, for now at least, are shut out of the picture. Previously all of the ski industry could promote the Ski Train; for other tour operators and accommodation providers to do so now, could actually damage their business to do so, because they could lose clients to Travelski. That’s a weird and counterproductive situation.
Obviously, in a season that it still relatively uncertain by normal standards, CDA/Travelski were taking a financial risk by chartering the train themselves. The way that they can make this work financially is to ensure that skiers buying tickets are purchasing accommodation and ski pass with Travelski. Fair enough. Did Travelski need to insist that all the seats are booked this way? Not being privy to train hire costs, profit margins etc, I can only speculate that there might have been a different, more egalitarian way that still delivered them a tidy grab of skier market share. If Travelski had decided to leave a proportion of seats for independent skiers, or tour operators, then that would mean that the whole ski industry could still get behind the train. Perhaps this wasn’t commercially viable for them — I don’t know.
Only six ski resorts
Here’s the second surprise: you can only take the Travelski Express to six ski resorts.
On paper, this sounds bonkers and frustrating. The Ski Train accesses train stations in the Tarentaise that serve 14 major ski resorts. But Travelski is only offering packages to six of them. And if you don’t book a Travelski package, you can’t get on the train.
The six resorts you can have a Travelski Express holiday are: La Plagne, Les Arcs (including Peisey-Vallandry), Les Menuires, Méribel, Tignes and Val d’Isère. It is unclear yet as to whether accommodation in Saint Martin de Belleville, which is twinned with Les Menuires, will be included. These are all great resorts, of course.
These are the ones you can’t: Couchevel, Doucy, La Rosière, La Tania, Sainte Foy, Val Thorens and Valmorel. These are also great resort, but are not currently an option with this train.
De Marcillac (CEO of Travelski), told me that the reason for choosing only six resorts is partly an operational necessity. “We have put a lot of money, energy and effort to make this direct train service to the French Alps possible this winter. We want to offer a high-level of service and need to combine this with operational efficiency, including being able to offer transfers that take guests directly from the train to their accommodation. For that reason, we’ve limited our offer to the six CDA resorts for this winter. But this still benefits the entire Alpine ecosystem, and we envisage expanding the range of resorts in future seasons.”
That’s understandable. Trying to offer seamless transfers to too many resorts in the first year, would be a huge logistical challenge. The resorts chosen are CDA resorts, so that is a commercial factor that has weighed in.
Personally, I still think Travelski could leave some seats separate of packages, so that skiers can access other resorts, and arrange their own transfers to do so. I’ll be suggesting this, but Travelski has no doubt considered this and decided against it.
One Ski Train service, not two.
In previous years, Eurostar ran two ski trains: a daytime service and an overnight service (for which combinations of daytime or overnight were possible).
This coming winter, the Travelski Express is only one train.
It will run every week, outbound from St Pancras overnight on Fridays. Back from the Alps, daytime on Saturdays.
Dates and timetable
The first outbound departure has not been decided yet.
It will either be on on Friday 24th December 2021, returning on Saturday 1st January 2022, or possibly a week earlier, with the return on Sunday 26th December. Discussions are ongoing.
The last outbound departure is confirmed to be on Friday 8th April 2022, returning on Saturday 16th April 2022.
The timetable is the same as previous Eurostar Ski Train times:
Outbound on Fridays
Depart London St Pancras 19:45
Arrive Moutiers 05:32
Arrive Bourg St Maurice 06:16
Return on Saturdays
Depart Bourg St Maurice 09:34
Depart Moutiers 10:14
Arrive London St Pancras 16:34
The Travelski Express won’t call at Ashford International this season, because Eurostar has closed the station for winter 2021-22. It also won’t stop at Aime la Plagne, but transfers to La Plagne ski resort will be arranged from Moutiers station instead.
When do tickets (packages) go on sale?
Travelski Express packages go on sale ‘by the end of September’, according to the company. I will of course keep you posted about this, along with any other important news.
(The best way to be the first to know is by signing up for Snowcarbon’s newsletter. A sign-up form is on every page of the Snowcarbon website)
Eurostar vouchers
Eurostar vouchers from ski-train journeys cancelled in March and April 2020, won’t be redeemable on the Travelski Express. However, I have good news about how you can exchange Eurostar vouchers for a cash refund, if you wish. I will write more about this in a separate newsletter and blog, which you will receive by tomorrow.
Up all night?
Like with the Eurostar Ski Train, there will be no bunk beds available on the Travelski Express. Therefore, you have to try to sleep in a sitting up position, or on the shoulder of your friend. Some people find this fine. Some people don’t manage to sleep so well. I once tried sleeping flat in the middle of the corridor, but the vibration of the engine and the instinctive fear of someone stepping on me made this unsuccessful. On a subsequent occasion a friend’s shoulder, padded by a ski jacked, worked OK for me. On the overnight train, booze is banned. On the daytime service booze is allowed.
The end of the Eurostar Ski Train as we know it?
De Marcillac says: “If this season is a success, this could help re-ignite Eurostar to offer their own normal ticket-only ski trains, with Travelski Express continuing to offer special trains.”
Let’s hope so. We need way more than one ski-train service to cope with demand, and to turn ski holidays more sustainable.
Some thoughts
1. For this coming season, therefore, there is only one ski-train service, the Travelski Express. That’s a 50% reduction in seating capacity from a normal year, but viewed in isolation, its certainly better than no ski train at all. Glass half full. However, how all these factors play out will be more complex.
2. You can only to book the Travelski Express with Travelski. Travelski are a relatively unknown tour operator in the UK. The company says that it is recruiting, so that it can develop a UK customer-service base. Let’s hope that customer service is excellent. Travelski says that it wants to offer good-value packages with quality accommodation. Much of this accommodation is what you would find available with other tour operators, rather than properties unique to Travelski. It doesn’t offer catered chalets, however. The fact that you can only book with Travelski, combined with the limited number of resorts offered, vastly reduces holiday options compared to normal years. Of course, there is quality available, and a fully comprehensive package. Just far less choice.
3. You have to travel outbound overnight. Some skiers love the overnight service, but some don't. I've never spoken to anyone who doesn't like the daytime service. With only one train, the services, for operational reasons, have to be combined. At the press conference yesterday, I suggested that running the service in reverse order (daytime outbound, back overnight) would be a better experience for many skiers. Beginners would be able to take advantage of an extra day at the end of the holiday, when they've had lessons and gained confidence. The overnight train is easier on the way back, because you are probably full of French food and probably wine, knackered from your day on the slopes, more satisfied and less excited. Also, no need to take the afternoon off work on the Friday in order to make the train if you are coming from outside of London, as many people do. On the plus side, arriving on Saturday morning gives beginner skiers more time to acclimatise to where things are located in resort, etc.
4. Indirect journeys play a huge role in getting skiers to the Alps. On a normal winter Saturday (pre-pandemic) I would sometimes go to St Pancras, get a coffee and ask skiers where they were headed to and how they were getting there. I found that many were travelling indirectly, either to Ski Train destinations, but via Paris, or to the many other destinations not accessed by the Ski Train. Eurostar need to confirm more London – Paris, Lille and Brussels trains, in time for when TGV trains go on sale in October, so that skiers have more possibilities – both for the Tarentaise and for other parts of the French Alps, and Switzerland, Italy and Austria. It’s important that resorts and politicians in the Alps continue to lobby Eurostar and SNCF to offer and co-ordinate convenient indirect journeys for skiers. At Snowcarbon we will of course be helping you to find out about best options both with Travelski Express, and indirect services.
6. The new Travelski Express is very different in terms how it’s marketed, and is limited to six destinations. But its existence does at least mean there is a Ski Train where none was going to happen this season. This is the first international charter train paid for by ski resorts. We are in new, unchartered waters, if you pardon the pun.
7. Let’s hope that it evolves in a way that is good for skiers and the ski industry, whose strength and attractiveness is in its diversity of providers and options.
I can’t think of anything more to add now, but please do contact me with any thoughts or questions – I’d love to hear your views.
I’ve put this newsletter on the Snowcarbon blog.
Other articles about the Travelski service are on the excellent Ski Flight Free and Planet Ski.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Thank you all so much for your feedback.
I had no idea things have been so much on a knife edge for this mode of transport. But then everything is so up in the air atm with Covid, so it shouldn’t be a surprise.
Have to say that I really don’t like the idea of the overnight seat. And also going just on a Friday isn’t going to work for us as we have different work commitments and locations which means that we could only do a Saturday or Sunday.
So, unfortunately, I think on balance this falls at the first hurdle for us this year and it’s back to the drawing board.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Don't forget it's still possible to travel by train to the Alps by Eurostar to Paris and changing trains. I do this two or three times a season. It's really not that difficult.
@iainm, True, but at present there are hardly any Eurostar trains, particularly from Paris to London, meaning connections are unlikely if not impossible. At the moment it's looking like I will have to overnight in Paris and get a train back to London on the Sunday.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Connections back seem to be the xxxxx as there’s no late afternoon Eurostar back to London on a Saturday evening. Unless I’m being daft!! So we would have to do an overnight in Paris. Which kinda defeats the object of the train
I’ve done the ‘ski train’ overnight outwards twice and never ever again. Inwards once night and once day.
I’ve done the two stage Eurostar and train twice and that’s my Deffo preference. Relaxed journey and easy transfer the other end.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Anyone got the inside scoop on if Eurostar and going to maintain their current service beyond 1st Nov? They're currently doing 5 trains a day, but it's due to drop back down to 2 on 1st Nov, which makes getting a return connection impossible. Do I hold out or do I bite the bullet and book a plane, which I really would rather avoid.
The SNCF tickets go on sale on Oct 6th, so haven't got long left to decide what to do!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Timmycb5 wrote:
The SNCF tickets go on sale on Oct 6th, so haven't got long left to decide what to do!
My gut feel is they will extend it. However you don’t have to book the French side on the day they open, there’s always been loads of spaces on the trains when I’ve done it. We usually have a table for 4 for 2 of us an the carriages are about 50% max capacity.
I’d deffo wait and see for a bit. Eurostar are likely to announce some time in October changes from Nov.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Lucywuk, do you know if that is true for half term also?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Timmycb5, judging by some of the tweets from/ via Seat61 this last week or so, I’d have a fairly strong hunch that Euro* are going to prolong their current level of service, and maybe extend it. Talk of optimism around rebounding business travel, and reopening the Amsterdam direct service. See https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Inboard, that would be excellent if it happens.
It means I'll be able to walk out of my door in leafy Oxfordshire at 7.15am and arrive in Montgenevre, having sat comfortably on my back bottom, just over 12 hour later. I'm not sure I could do it much quicker by plane, and certainly not in such a relaxed fashion.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Timmycb5, yep, it will be great to get back to long international train trips. Very much hoping to take train to Moutiers in April for the EOSB
Driving to the alps is all very well for bringing lots of food and booze back, but less good for indulgent lunches while travelling
@Timmycb5, yep, it will be great to get back to long international train trips. Very much hoping to take train to Moutiers in April for the EOSB
Driving to the alps is all very well for bringing lots of food and booze back, but less good for indulgent lunches while travelling
That's a very good point. Talking of which, are drinks gratis on the 1st class section of the TGV? Or at the very least is there a bar?!?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Timmycb5, can’t remember, sorry - we’ve only rarely used 1st Class and I think we took picnics (which is our default anyway). Good supermarkets at the big Paris stations, with lots of lovely charcuterie/ cheese/ wine/ bread etc and you can take a penknife (Swiss army style but not locking opinel) through Euro* security. I think the trains have a bar but haven’t used it. Seat61 website should help answer this
@Timmycb5, can’t remember, sorry - we’ve only rarely used 1st Class and I think we took picnics (which is our default anyway). Good supermarkets at the big Paris stations, with lots of lovely charcuterie/ cheese/ wine/ bread etc and you can take a penknife (Swiss army style but not locking opinel) through Euro* security. I think the trains have a bar but haven’t used it. Seat61 website should help answer this
That is a very good shout. I'm doing a dry (or possibly very wet ) run with one of my mates in January, before embarking on the train with my kids in tow. It could get messy.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Timmycb5, there is no waiter service on TGVs, and no free drinks.
There is (usually) a bar.
The French behave much better on trains than the Brits. Much quieter. No raucous boozing. Phonecalls are made in the designated (seated) space between carriages.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Jonpim wrote:
Timmycb5, there is no waiter service on TGVs, and no free drinks.
There is (usually) a bar.
The French behave much better on trains than the Brits. Much quieter. No raucous boozing. Phonecalls are made in the designated (seated) space between carriages.
I’ll only be doing civilised boozing. And won’t be making any phonecalls. I’m not a philistine!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Timmycb5,
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Timmycb5, First class on french trains means much bigger seats and a less crowded carriage. Unfortunately there aren't any complimentary refreshments. last time we went to Gare de Lyon I think I saw a Costa so you could take food from there onto the train or buy something from the standard train buffet.
I'm not sure if you know Gare de Lyon but it is a massive station and it has two departure halls. Try and find out in advance which hall the Turin train goes from so you don't have to walk too far with all your luggage.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowymum, top tip. Thanks, will do. Never been on the train in France or to Montgenevre, which is why I’ve been given a free pass, nay, positively encouraged, to go on a long weekend reccy with a mate to check out the train and slopes
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
As snowymum, says. Also you can get single seats, and first class not really that much more expensive than second.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
It’s all about the train picnics. Morning Eurostar includes Buck’s Fizz, coffee and croissants (timing buying the coffee to make sure it’s still hot on the train will be harder via st Pancras, Ebbsfleet was a 2 min trot to the platform!)
Afternoon train to moutiers, Le Pain Quotien sandwich at Gare de Lyon and a couple of beers from the shop.
No going mad, just a proper start to the holiday.
Found a good site for news in Euro*. Eurostar4agents seem to have most updates. Fingers crossed more trains announced for December onwards soon. I’m hanging on given last year life went a bit tits nearer the season!!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Interesting, some of the packages look very competitively priced (not looking at peak times) when you consider passes included.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Looks like Ouigo, the low cost train service, will be operating a TGV service from Paris CdG airport to Bourg St Maurice this winter. Calling at Eurodisney (MlVC), Lyon Saint Exupery airport, Grenoble, Albertville, Moutiers and Aime La Plagne.
Tickets will be available from 6th October.
Cet hiver, partez au ski à bord des TGV OUIGO
Fans de raquettes, passionné(e)s de ski, OUIGO a pensé à vous ! Cet hiver, vous pourrez emprunter les TGV OUIGO pour rejoindre vos stations de ski préférées : au départ de Paris – Aéroport Charles de Gaulle et à destination de Bourg-Saint-Maurice, la ligne saisonnière dédiée aux vacances à la montagne dessert également Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy-TGV, Lyon-Saint-Exupéry-TGV, Grenoble, Albertville, Moûtiers-Salins-Brides-les-Bains et Aime-La Plagne.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@skichampcouk, Well spotted looks pretty good. Is it really only €10? seems so! leaves Paris at 09.40 So really early start from London or an overnight in a Charles de Gaulle airport hotel
@boredsurfin, Prices usually start at 10euros, or at least some fares are available at that price. They usually go pretty quickly for the busy periods and the price starts to ramp up. We're off to Paris from Montpellier with them in October, that was 19euros, scandalous.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The TGV line from Montpellier to Paris goes via Lyon St Exupery so we will hope to go there and then join the new snowtrain one if the times coincide.
It could be good news for anybody flying into Lyon from the UK as it is an easy walk across to the TGV station from the airport and straight onto a cheap train to the mountains.
It could be good news for anybody flying into Lyon from the UK as it is an easy walk across to the TGV station from the airport and straight onto a cheap train to the mountains.
Now that could be a winner
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skichampcouk wrote:
Looks like Ouigo, the low cost train service, will be operating a TGV service from Paris CdG airport to Bourg St Maurice this winter. Calling at Eurodisney (MlVC), Lyon Saint Exupery airport, Grenoble, Albertville, Moutiers and Aime La Plagne.
Tickets will be available from 6th October.
Cet hiver, partez au ski à bord des TGV OUIGO
Fans de raquettes, passionné(e)s de ski, OUIGO a pensé à vous ! Cet hiver, vous pourrez emprunter les TGV OUIGO pour rejoindre vos stations de ski préférées : au départ de Paris – Aéroport Charles de Gaulle et à destination de Bourg-Saint-Maurice, la ligne saisonnière dédiée aux vacances à la montagne dessert également Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy-TGV, Lyon-Saint-Exupéry-TGV, Grenoble, Albertville, Moûtiers-Salins-Brides-les-Bains et Aime-La Plagne.
My dear wife has gone off flying so we are doing the Train where we can.
as Ster says Seat61.com is loaded with great info.
Its a long ride for the kids though, getting away from St Pancras early and going to Bruxelles and through to Salzburg by late in the evening.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The cheap Ouigo tickets from Paris CdG to the Alps went on sale this morning, starting off at 10 euros each way. Most of the weekend journeys are now well above 10 euros, the peak Paris February school holiday weekend journeys are now 99 euros each way and will no doubt be sold out soon.
Still plenty of 10 euro tickets available midweek for anybody who fancies a night or 2 in Paris on their way to / from skiing.
https://www.ouigo.com/content/ouverture-des-ventes-hiver
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) run with one of my mates in January, before embarking on the train with my kids in tow. It could get messy.