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Training for the ups

 Poster: A snowHead
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I might not be exactly average skier with my history of pro xc skiing athlete for half of my life, but maybe just because of this training background in sport that is quite similar to skimo, I probably have some more know knowledge on what works and what doesn't. But then again, there's a bit difference on how I look at those things, and what my fitness level is compared to how someone, who never did any (top level) sport.
As far as training goes, bike (either road or mtb) is more or less useless for this. Now please take this with a grain of salt and don't take this exactly the way I wrote. Cycling is of course still a whole lot better then doing nothing, but for being better skinning up on skis, there are better way of training then cycling. There's one way that works best for sure, but I'm pretty sure there's not many people too interested in spending their days out on roller skis on busy roads. Even for me, that's one thing that I really don't do anymore after I quit xc ski racing career. Other then this, running is pretty much best way to get ready. If you can add running uphill that's even better, and if you also add poles to this, then you are more or less on exactly same stuff as skimo is in winter. Learning proper technique and actually using poles while skinning, not just having them for balance, as majority of people does, helps a lot. Other then this, I really don't suggest doing this with backpack etc. Sure if you go mountain running you have small backpack with necessary clothes in it (personally I use Salomon Adv skin 12 running vest, which is more then enough for me to fit some water, those little clothes I might need and powerbar or two), but there's really no need to pack 15kg backpack to be similar then in winter. If nothing else skimo is low impact sport, while running or hiking isn't, and you really want to avoid heavy backpack, especially on way down.
But as far as touring in winter goes, I would say most important thing is proper pacing. That's something what people who were never in endurance sport, just don't have it, as it's really not all that easy to accomplish without years of doing it. Majority of people go way too fast, and need to rest every few minutes, while some go way too slow. Right speed of course depends on your fitness, planned tour etc. For me normal speed on long tours is around 800-900 height meters/hour, for short after work tours in my backyard it's faster and anything under 600m/h is getting painfully slow, so if I tour with someone super slow, I normally just go my tempo and wait every 15 or 20min. Best tool for proper pacing is heart rate monitor, with properly set zones. Regardless of your condition and speed, keeping your HR in Z2 or Z3 is where you want to be able to keep going for long time. For someone not in that great shape, this might feel slow, but that's only way to go for long without being completely exhausted before you even reach summit (not to mention if you have another day tomorrow).
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@primoz,
Agree with you on the proper use of poles but Inline skating on the flats without a heavy backpack for ski touring training? Can see how that would work for XC skiing but can't see it being optimal for ski touring. Ski touring isn't a mini-backpack sport esp. if you are doing hut to hut. Having 15kg+ on your back while doing 3000 + 4000ers mountains makes a hell of a difference. Hiking up steep hills/mountains with a heavy backpack prepares the legs much better than skating around in lycra. (as said earlier, carry water or stones but ditch them before the descent to save the legs/knees)
For longer tours you want to be in Zone 2 - that's where the best ski mountaineers are at (e.g. Kilian Journet)

When I've taken newbie ski tourers out many go too fast, nobody wants to be left behind. I try to work out who is under the most physical stress and get them to go at their own pace just behind me because in the long run this will be the quickest average pace.
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@DB, not really inline skating. Inline skating is completely different thing then roller skiing. Classic roller skiing is the thing I was talking about and it's pretty much exactly same as classic xc skiing on snow, and therefore very very similar to skimo on uphill part. Here's first video google throws out:


http://youtube.com/v/I6dp6FGvqV0?t=18

I still stand with this that backpack is useless thing to bother to train with. It of course adds quite a bit once you put it on, but with proper fitness it just makes you go slower, not that you are unprepared for that. Afterall, biathletes race with guns, but most of their training, either on roller skis in summer or on skis in winter, and all running training, is done without guns on their backs. And at level they race (pretty mcuh all race is in Z5), those 4kg that gun weights adds really a lot.
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@primoz, I found that getting into cycling got me used to long z2/3 efforts and also made me more aware of how hard I’m working and how long I can sustain that level of work. Maybe not a direct fitness benefit but it’s made my touring days much more enjoyable
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@Arno, maybe I wrote it wrong or misleading. Sorry for that, by well, English is not my native language Smile I wanted to say, there are way better training options then cycling. But if there's option between going cycling, or going out for a beer, then of course cycling is awesome training. Smile I know that for many, running is not too appealing option. Even for me, I started to like running for first time in my life some 5 years ago. Before I made few 10.000km running while still being active athlete, but I never liked running trainings. Roller skiing was great, skiing was awesome, that little bike and mtb trainings we had was great too, but running was always just because you have to do it, and in xc skiing, you run a lot... really a lot. But only now, long after I quit racing and real training, I started to enjoy running, especially mountain running (trail running is actually what I count as running, as I never run on road). So I understand lot of people just don't like it and don't go. For this, bike is still great thing. You get feeling for pace, you get feeling to pace yourself properly for long time on low intensity, and all this helps once going up on skis for few hours. So it's not that bike is useless. But if someone like bike as much as running, then running is way better option and it brings way more benefit to skimo then cycling.
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primoz wrote:
.....For me normal speed on long tours is around 800-900 height meters/hour, for short after work tours in my backyard it's faster and anything under 600m/h is getting painfully slow.....


Where's the "We're not worthy emoji" Laughing

If I'm on my own and going for it, I might just come in around 750m per hour, obviously all depends on the gradient/snow-pack, but I'd be very close to going into the red zone.

All my training out of winter season, the last four or so years has been cycling, admittedly a lot of that up mountains, though in the season I'm touring on average 2 possibly 3 x a week so that builds the necessary fitness, along with XC skating and the occasional session on the turbo to maintain cycling fitness, so will be interesting this year to see what I'm like with the running I've been doing.

And I'm just loving my Garmin Fenix 6 Pro with all the data it throws as you, makes an old fart feel really good Laughing
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@primoz,

We are going to have to politely agree to disagree.

A biathlon is different to a long ski tour. The climbed elevation profile is different and the amount of weight carried too. There's less skating with ski touring, you propell yourself forward with touring skis by "clawing" the ground with the skins rather then just kicking the front leg forward. A ski tour isn't a Zone5 race but a Zone 2 (max Zone 3) endurance. Suspect that a lot of newbies are in Zone 3 or even 4 when the well trained are in Zone 2 so they are pushing themselves to keep up and eventually hit a fitness "brick wall".

With your training for XC skiing it looks like you have used an activity that best emulates the actual activity (without carrying guns around). For me hill walking with a heavy backpack and poles for hours in Zone 2 best emulates skitouring.

I've no doubt there are bi-atheletes out there that would "leave me standing" on a ski tour but IMHO they would be even faster on the ski tour if they modified their training exercise to best emulate ski touring.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 7-10-21 10:35; edited 1 time in total
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Arno wrote:
....... I am totally on board with this article

https://www.powder.com/stories/skiing-as-craft/being-the-slowest-skier-is-very-important/

Cool......


When we first started touring as part of our annual gang visit to La Grave that was when people still smoked cigarettes, one of our team was a little older than us and a bit of a stoner too, he was more than happy to go at his own pace off the back having the occasional spliff on the way up Laughing

I can also think of a couple of guides who forever had a rollup going.
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@DB, I have no problem if we disagree Smile I know biathlon is different then ski touring, as well as xc skiing is. I was referring to biathlon only because those guys race with extra weight on, yet during training they mostly train without that extra weight. Otherwise classic xc skiing is not that much different then ski touring. Technique is of course different, but basic movement is very similar, which also means basically same muscles are involved. Intensity and duration are of course different, even though some marathon xc ski race (with distance of 50-80km) is not Z5 race either. But either way, more then 80% of all training for xc skiing is done in Z1 and Z2, and occasional interval sessions wouldn't hurt for ski touring preparation either. No I'm not suggestion people should do them, as normally interval trainings are not all that much of fun for normal people, and afterall we are mostly "training" to have great time skiing, not because we would be racing (anyone who does skimo races is excluded from this, but I guess these guys don't need forum advices on training Smile ).
This is purely from my own experience. As I wrote, I never carry any backpacks when I' out running (that little running vest with less then 2kg on mountain runs doesn't really count much), but I never have any issues with backpack on ski tours. I just adapt my speed a bit, as you can't go as fast as without it, but that's it. Same goes if I take heavier skis.

@Weathercam, there's no need for that emoji Razz People are different and we have different training background, and if nothing else, we are different age, even though I guess I'm not all that young, as I think I am, anymore either Laughing So unless you go for races, it certainly doesn't matter how fast you are. At least I go ski touring because it's fun and I enjoy it. And it certainly doesn't make any difference if I go up faster or slower then someone else.
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@primoz, do you race ski-mo ??

I often think that if I had lived in the mountains when I was 30 or so, then that's a sport I could have adapted to really well and would have enjoyed competing in. I used to Time Trial so was used to racing just near to the red zone for an hour, as well as run quickish 10kms and halves.

The XC skating is still a big learning curve for me, but I'm getting there.
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Any exercise that improves your aerobic fitness will help. Running damaged my knees - not exactly great for skiing longevity - so I stopped and bought a bike. It’s way more fun riding than running IME and no impact damage on downhills (as long as you don’t fall off!). And after a bit of training I can ski tour as fast as friends who run marathons so don’t feel like I’m missing out. Knowing your kit and practicing transitions also important. I know from personal experience that it’s hard to lose the nickname of “Le Faff” once you’ve been crowned with it. Patrouille des Glaciers up in 2023 so touring training starting soon!
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Regarding the backpack the issue is intensity. If you are running or roller skiing it's easy to just increase/decrease the pace to get the right intensity for aerobic training (for argument's sake say zone 2 heart rate). With hiking you are more limited with pace. If you are reasonably fit, even hiking uphill you may not be able to get your heart rate up into that optimal zone without using a backpack to make it a bit more challenging. That's the rationale for ski tourers to do hiking with a backpack.

Quote:

It’s way more fun riding than running IME and no impact damage on downhills (as long as you don’t fall off!). And after a bit of training I can ski tour as fast as friends who run marathons so don’t feel like I’m missing out.


There's no doubt running/hiking has more crossover than cycling. However, I've often wondered just how much extra cycling would be needed to compensate. I.e. would 10 hours cycling per week make someone a better ski tourer than 5 hours running per week? I suspect we will never have an answer.
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Up until April, my general training was c. 6hrs/week running, 2 cycling.

From April - end August, it was c. 2hrs/week running, 10 cycling (with a lot of variability, peak week was 1hr run 30hr bike!).

From start of Sept, I switched back to running, with 2 weeks to train for a half marathon.

I ran a minute faster in the half marathon than I'd run 2 yrs previously, when my running volume had been much greater and my cycling had been zero.

My coach says he often sees good running/cycling crossover, and was pleased with, but not surprised by the results.

On this very simple set of datapoints from one individual, cycling duration compensates for running at 2x.
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It's OK saying "just adjust your pace" but I'd imagine for a UK based ski tourer that they would be joining groups where the other participants fitness level is unknown.
The group sets off and the guide/leader sets the pace. Nobody wants to hold the group up so everyone tends to go at the set pace even if it's difficult. Sometimes there are also time contraints which means the group needs to go at a certain speed to finish e.g. before dark or before the spring sun & temp takes effect. You could have three ski tourers all going at the same pace but the heart rates are in different Zones (e.g. Zone 2, 3 & 4 or HR 120, 140 & 160). It's no fun being at the back of a group struggling to keep up and it happened to me recently after I'd done 2 heavy days MTBing then met friends for another MTB session on the 3rd day. My third day MTBing in a row vs their first was a real killer.
The fitter you are the less chance you have of having the higher heart rate and being the one to struggle at the back.
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I just do 3 or 4 weeks pre-season touring with Weathercam, always a tough start, but by the time the snow is here in earnest I'm ready for it Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@KenX, and this season we have Ullr for the back-markers, who is also in training Laughing

And @snowdave, I agree two hours of cycling equates to an hour of running at a certain level.

And I could ride at a lower intensity for six-eight hours but not too sure I could do a four-hour marathon, though a while back when I really started ski-touring on my own and I was out for five weeks before we bought our place I was scheduled to run the Brighton Marathon on my return, and I was really fit before coming out to the mountains, and then I fell off that feckin cliff rolling eyes

But I remember at the time thinking that I was out for some 4hrs and my av HR was on a par for what I'd expect to run the marathon at.
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@Weathercam, no I never raced in skimo. I was racing in xc skiing for more then 20 years (I never did anything special, so no medals from Olympics or World championships or even World Cup, as best I managed to do was around place 15 on EC), and once I quit that, I never put start bib on again (well except for 1 mtb race that friend bugged me for a year to go with him... and he shitted his pants so I had to go alone Very Happy). I still do a lot of sport, normally it comes to some 400h/year, but it's for fun only. No more racing, as I don't have unfulfilled dreams about being World champion at age of 48 Very Happy I tried when it was time, and I sucked big time, so now it's only for fun, and as sport is just part of my life so I can't imagine not doing it. Smile
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if you wish you can keep it simple all year round. MTB in the shoulder seasons. Ski in winter. Road bike in summer. Find excuses to go up and down the stairs multiple times a day. When at the top do a few sets of squats and arm exercises with some light hand weights. I am just over 60 now, and so try not to get HR too high, long since ditched machinery and go on PRE. May not work for those of you who are younger/better.
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Off the back of this thread, I have got an 8 week training plan from uphill athletes. Trouble is... I don't think I am fit enough to even do day 1 of the plan. Lolz. Very Happy
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@kat.ryb, go on then spill the beanz
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@kat.ryb, I think we may be doing the same one (if it’s the free 8 week plan with paid for strength sessions by video with Neil from Chamonix). We’re on week 5 just now and while it was hard work to begin with, it’s settled into a good rhythm now (although still providing good challenge). Looking forward to the start of the season now as I think I’ll be more ready for it than ever before Very Happy
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@kat.ryb, @Inboard, mmmm just had a look, all too serious for me, think I'll just stick to what I've always done, drink to excess and train to excess Laughing
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Interesting tweet from sports scientist Stephen Seiler about aerobic/anaerobic and nose breathing (an apparent obsession of the uphill athlete coaches) indicating it may not be a reliable guide to aerobic threshold for everyone:

https://twitter.com/StephenSeiler/status/1453420457257017352

@Weathercam, the only reason I started (proper) exercise 20 yrs ago was so I could eat and drink more!
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@Weathercam, haha, we’re still drinking to excess too! Gotta keep the training holistic Laughing
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snowdave wrote:

@Weathercam, the only reason I started (proper) exercise 20 yrs ago was so I could eat and drink more!


Hmmm it seems with every passing year the exercise needs to keep increasing to keep up with the appetite!

First tour yesterday was painfully slow. Paying for a lazy few weeks.
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@Inboard, I like that, "Holistic", I often say "dynamic equilibrium" Laughing

Copied from the Mid-life crisis sporting achievements + kids and partners thread on Saturday


Had a bit of a heavy night, two pints and a bottle of red (12%) and awoke feeling better than I should have......

In the end did the 5km Park Run with a shedload of PB's and an official Park Run PB time of 23:21 though my actual 5km was recorded at 23:13 av hr 161 and 3rd in my age category VM60-64


Hence I'll stick to my training plan Laughing
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@Weathercam,
Quote:

mmmm just had a look, all too serious for me, think I'll just stick to what I've always done, drink to excess and train to excess


Aye, but don't you live in the mountains and ski tour all the time?! Plus bike the cols in the summer? Very Happy I reckon your day-to-day fitness would smash my flat-land London desk-bound lifestyle out the park.

Day 1 of the training plan is run for an hour at an easy aerobic pace to test your HR drift. I'm not sure there is any pace at which you could class it as a 'run' where it feels easy effort for me. Embarassed
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@snowdave, interesting tweet. AFAI can see, the UA team have moved on a bit from their nose-breathing obsession - while there’s certainly chat about it on the web, the programme we’ve committed to proposes other ways of working out aerobic and anaerobic thresholds (eg, a HR drift test for AeT); so far I’d say the figures I calculated for myself feel pretty accurate in terms of being able to plug away aerobically for a long time.

Managed a 28km / 900metre vertical run yesterday (60% in Zone 1, 40% in zone 2), which I’m pleased with having never run more than 5k on the flat this time last year. Going to continue with their programme for a while longer. Aside from the running, the strength/ proprioception sessions with Neil McLean Martin in Chamonix are excellent.

And to keep @Weathercam happy, I rounded off that run with a bottle of Chignin and 400g of raclette - what could be more holistic training for the Alps than that?!
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Inboard wrote:
.....And to keep @Weathercam happy, I rounded off that run with a bottle of Chignin and 400g of raclette - what could be more holistic training for the Alps than that?!.....


Aaaaah my training would involve doing that the night before and then doing 28km run Laughing


kat.ryb wrote:
......Day 1 of the training plan is run for an hour at an easy aerobic pace to test your HR drift.......


And for any training plan that says Day 1 go out for an hour's run, that is a training plan that's aimed at people that already have a good base?
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Lightweights. I'd do the run while necking the bottle of wine and eating a kebab. Put THAT on your training plan. wink (insert one finger Toto Wolff signature point here)
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Inboard wrote:
@snowdave, interesting tweet. AFAI can see, the UA team have moved on a bit from their nose-breathing obsession - while there’s certainly chat about it on the web, the programme we’ve committed to proposes other ways of working out aerobic and anaerobic thresholds (eg, a HR drift test for AeT); so far I’d say the figures I calculated for myself feel pretty accurate in terms of being able to plug away aerobically for a long time.


If you're not using nose-breathing, how are you gauging Aerobic Threshold? I thought the UA drift test required you to nose-breath; otherwise in the anaerobic zone drift tends to drop - e.g. I sustain 94% max HR for 90 minutes with <5% drift, but I doubt that's my AeT!
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@snowdave, you do a warmup for c20 mins, then once hr steady, run on a flattish route for 60 mins aiming to maintain the same steady hr. If pace:hr % is between 3.5-5% then apparently that’s a reasonable proxy for AeT. They are quite clear that it’s all a bit approximate for uphill endurance types in contrast to cycling etc.

Caveat - while I have a good aerobic base from many years mountaineering, I have no training history (only started running last year), so Ive not thougt about thresholds before. However, I’ve done the aet test as they suggest three times now (twice in relatively quick succession and once after several weeks consistent training) and the results have been consistent (with more recent test showing some slight improvements). I’ve cross-referenced these with nose breathing and it all matches up plausibly.

I’m happy if this approach is provoking debate among the sports scientists but I’m also happy to stick with it for a year and see how it goes - so far for me it’s working well.
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snowdave wrote:
Interesting tweet from sports scientist Stephen Seiler about aerobic/anaerobic and nose breathing (an apparent obsession of the uphill athlete coaches) indicating it may not be a reliable guide to aerobic threshold for everyone:

https://twitter.com/StephenSeiler/status/1453420457257017352

@Weathercam, the only reason I started (proper) exercise 20 yrs ago was so I could eat and drink more!


Its fairly well known that nose breathing is not reliable for some people. The proxy measures for estimating aerobic threshold/LT1 (nose breathing, talk test, HR drift test etc.) are not perfect, but they work ok for most people. Worth trying out a few and seeing if there is a general consensus. If you qre still unsure and really want confirmation a lab test in UK is around £100.

Fwiw the last lab test I had put my LT1 cycling power only a couple of watts off the top of my zone 2 power based on a 20min FTP test and coggins zones. So for my n=1 experience 75% of FTP was pretty much a perfect estimation. Of course only useful for cycling and other individuals may not find such a great correlation between the two.
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@Inboard, thanks - I'm sure it will work well; IME consistency (and enjoyment; without this it's hard to be consistent!) deliver a lot of benefit regardless of the nuances of the training plan.

For me, using 5% drift alone to gauge AeT would lead to massive overtraining, so I was wondering what their safety valve was to stop you blowing yourself up.
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snowdave wrote:
Inboard wrote:
@snowdave, interesting tweet. AFAI can see, the UA team have moved on a bit from their nose-breathing obsession - while there’s certainly chat about it on the web, the programme we’ve committed to proposes other ways of working out aerobic and anaerobic thresholds (eg, a HR drift test for AeT); so far I’d say the figures I calculated for myself feel pretty accurate in terms of being able to plug away aerobically for a long time.


If you're not using nose-breathing, how are you gauging Aerobic Threshold? I thought the UA drift test required you to nose-breath; otherwise in the anaerobic zone drift tends to drop - e.g. I sustain 94% max HR for 90 minutes with <5% drift, but I doubt that's my AeT!


Something doesn't add up. Being able to sustain 94% max heart rate for 90mins just doesn't seem plausible. As you say there is no way a heart rate that high can be aerobic. How are you finding your max heart rate? Are you measuring HR with chest strap or watch?
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boarder2020 wrote:
....Something doesn't add up. Being able to sustain 94% max heart rate for 90mins just doesn't seem plausible. .....


I thought that but thought I must have mis-read something or it was a typo?
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@boarder2020, @Weathercam, HR measured from Polar H10 on chest or OH-1 or Sense OHR on upper arm, all give the same answers.

Max HR 177 tested 3 times, have never got it above that.

Half mara HR: First half 162, second half 169, average 166. Power and time splits constant, HM was run as laps on an airfield course so no hills to deal with.
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@snowdave, those are pretty weird figures ??

Even if you're max was 177 being able to sustain 169 for 45 mins is pretty bonkers.

When you had your max hr tests how were they performed, in a lab or outside and what state were you in at the end, just that I reckon you're way younger than me and my max HR is probably around 178.

I had a mate who thought his max was like 175 and it was obvious that it wasn't as he could still just about talk, think we found another 20bpm for him.

With you doing 170 for a half I would have estimated your max to be at least mid 190's I'm sure @Boarder2020, will have a POV too?

In my mid 30's my max was 195 and I'd Time Trial for an hour at around 172-175 depending on the course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Weathercam, uphill repeats, end of a 5k race, and max effort 3min intervals; all give very similar answers. Trainingpeaks says the same - I've never managed HR > 177 unless you include spurious wrist HR readings from my Garmin "random number generator" watch.

I can't really talk in the 160s, hence my original point about drift not being (for me) a reliable indicator. If I layer in some other aspect (nose breathing, talking etc.) it forces me to run much slower than drift does.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@snowdave, are you not down my way?

I can see a sadistic bit of coaching coming up, would love to see if together we could find more, as on paper I think that there is!

Problem is that I probably would not be able to keep up with you in order to verbally abuse you and other such old school coaching methods in all the all-important last couple of minutes but I'd give it a go, I can think of a few inclines on the South Downs local to me that should do the trick!

In fact you could beast yourself up a long km drag and I'd meet you with the final 300m to go Laughing

I've always said that by the end you should almost be puking and be very light-headed along with jelly legs etc etc just as you see some TDF riders at the end of the stage when they've won after going in and beyond the red zone and end up in a heap.
snow conditions



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