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Training for the ups

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Any specific training people do for the ups? I've a week touring from new year so want to be in shape. Can start touring some point in November most years but wondering what people do off the snow.

Currently planning 5 days of MTB or running a week. Then swapping to a bit of ankle weights walking in Nov. Eat less pies drink less beer.
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motdoc wrote:
Any specific training people do for the ups? I've a week touring from new year so want to be in shape. Can start touring some point in November most years but wondering what people do off the snow.

Currently planning 5 days of MTB or running a week. Then swapping to a bit of ankle weights walking in Nov. Eat less pies drink less beer.


Road biking up big hills works for me. Apparently hiking with a heavy pack is the best “practical” training for ski touring
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I find 40 miles running per week does the job for me.

I suspect any aerobic medium-long duration activity done regularly will stand you in good stead. My guide does a lot of biking in the off season.

The only thing I wonder about in your plan (and I’m no pro at this so am speculating based in general training principles) is whether mixing 3 activities is as effective as doing one very consistently.
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Since touring is largely walking uphill (ignoring the technical stuff), I would start with walking/hiking up some steep hills (you should have plenty in BC Very Happy). You need to match your hiking to your planned tours, by which I mean, if you are planning touring which involves lots of laps, then concentrate on maybe 1 hour climbs, but if you are aiming for long days of A to B tours for 5-6 hours, you need to be easily able to hike that distance with a full pack, day after day. It’s like training for a marathon, there is no point getting better at 5 mile runs, as all you are doing is training for 5 mile runs rolling eyes Having said that, anything that makes you fitter and weigh less will be of benefit.

I MTB all year, but bias my rides towards climbing as ski season approaches. Climbing fire roads works, as it’s typically a long steady energy expenditure similar to touring.
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PowderAdict wrote:
Since touring is largely walking uphill (ignoring the technical stuff), I would start with walking/hiking up some steep hills (you should have plenty in BC Very Happy). You need to match your hiking to your planned tours, by which I mean, if you are planning touring which involves lots of laps, then concentrate on maybe 1 hour climbs, but if you are aiming for long days of A to B tours for 5-6 hours, you need to be easily able to hike that distance with a full pack, day after day. It’s like training for a marathon, there is no point getting better at 5 mile runs, as all you are doing is training for 5 mile runs rolling eyes Having said that, anything that makes you fitter and weigh less will be of benefit.

I MTB all year, but bias my rides towards climbing as ski season approaches. Climbing fire roads works, as it’s typically a long steady energy expenditure similar to touring.


This 100%
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motdoc wrote:
Eat less pies drink less beer.

Puzzled Puzzled
Surely no amount of uphill prowess is worth that? Madeye-Smiley
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stuarth wrote:
motdoc wrote:
Eat less pies drink less beer.

Puzzled Puzzled
Surely no amount of uphill prowess is worth that? Madeye-Smiley


And there’s me thinking one of the reasons to go ski touring is so that you can eat more pies and drink more beer!?!?
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BobinCH wrote:
stuarth wrote:
motdoc wrote:
Eat less pies drink less beer.

Puzzled Puzzled
Surely no amount of uphill prowess is worth that? Madeye-Smiley


And there’s me thinking one of the reasons to go ski touring is so that you can eat more pies and drink more beer!?!?


Exactly it's called "dynamic equilibrium" Laughing

Before I was fortunate enough to live out in the Mountains and had my one week ski touring booked, I used to hike up the grassy hills of the South Downs escarpments in my touring boots, not so much to keep fit, as back then I was competing in running and cycling but to get my feet hardened up to prevent blisters, or get the blister and let the scar tissue toughen the skin up etc

Another thing to consider is who else is in your group, and where do you fit in the pecking fitness order etc

But as has been said, if you're doing "stuff" on a regular basis then there should be no issue.
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Thanks for all the advice. I've got a big job and two young kids so there are other balances.

I think I'll need to add, long walks and wearing my boots as much as possible.

I'll take my seat out of my room at work so I get used to being on my feet all day and wear weights so I'm getting some training.

There are two groups every day from the lodge. It's a medical education twofer so I don't know how for they'll be.
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motdoc wrote:
I'll take my seat out of my room at work so I get used to being on my feet all day and wear weights so I'm getting some training.


Or switch to using a gym ball instead of a seat? Does wonders for the core. I used to have a colleague who could kneel on a gym ball, whilst working at his desk. He could also do kendo whilst standing on one, but not in the office.

Sadly my then-employer banned them after a few months due to the safety elves saying we could fall off them!
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If available time is an issue, I'd include 1 or 2 sessions per week of high-intensity intervals (HIIT). You'll still want to do some longer sessions, but HIIT can give pretty effective gains for aerobic fitness. If you're not used to them, it'd be safer (less injury risk) to do them on a bike rather than running. There are a whole range of protocols; one of my favourites (in a masochistic sense) is Tabata intervals
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Don't wear ski boots or touring boots for walking, won't help, but do lots of walking uphill, preferably with a pack, which you should empty on the way down. A large container of water (kept in your rucksack) can be emptied for the descent.
I do this before going to the Alps climbing, helps a lot. Some acclimatisation is good before going high, above 3000m, if you are sleeping high up on your tour.
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viv wrote:
If available time is an issue, I'd include 1 or 2 sessions per week of high-intensity intervals (HIIT). You'll still want to do some longer sessions, but HIIT can give pretty effective gains for aerobic fitness. If you're not used to them, it'd be safer (less injury risk) to do them on a bike rather than running. There are a whole range of protocols; one of my favourites (in a masochistic sense) is Tabata intervals


I'd second the idea of doing some high intensity sessions as well as the volume aerobic training. Particularly if you are going to be touring at altitude (say >3000m).

My experience is that skinning, carrying a pack above 3000m and/or boot packing with skis on more technical terrain means you will be testing your aerobic threshold.
High intensity training (e.g., sets of hill sprints, jogging back down) is good at conditioning you to recover quickly when your heart rate gets elevated. Adding some of these sessions to my usual aerobic stuff (cycling, longer runs) made a big difference to how hard I found ski touring.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowdave wrote:
I find 40 miles running per week does the job for me.


This. Running is the most bang for your buck. Personally I hate running. Ken Roberts (late of this forum) used to swear by ankle weights but he was as light as a feather. You'd have a job beating Ken on the ups.

I don't find the cross over from cycling, MTBing etc that great. MTBing probably helps more on the downs (coordination, balance, motor skills).

You can even run with poles, in this case try to run as you would ski tour by not putting the striding leg too far forward.

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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Our new secret weapon undergoing his training Laughing

Think those that know will see his obvious Chiens de traineaux heritage Laughing


http://youtube.com/v/aR_wknZCezg
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I ran competitively in my youth and expected that to be sufficient for skiing and it wasn't for me. Quads don't work hard enough. So I do stairs, outside, not a machine. We used to have an indoor slope here and that was excellent.....it worked my lower back in a good way for skiing, since I was.
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The key thing is racking up as many hours as possible of moderate intensity training (zone 2/MAF heart rate/AET or however you want to define it). You want to build a huge aerobic base, to the point you can comfortably tour uphill well below your aerobic heart rate (i.e. not producing lactate and therefore theoretically, if fueled correctly, continue indefinitely).

Cycling is ok, but due to it being non weight bearing it will never be as good as hiking or running (simply not as specific to ski touring).

Running probably offers most bang for your buck in terms of time. However, also has biggest risk of injury. Hiking with a loaded pack is a great option. No reason you can't incorporate both.

Ideally you want to replicate the kind of terrain - so plenty of hills. If you don't have access to hills an incline treadmill or stairmaster work great (in fact for ski tourers are perhaps more optimum than outdoor training as offer more control and mean you can do 100% "uphill" training - you are not interested in training the downhill like a mountaineer would be).

For those really time crunched you can get a good workout in at home, just find/build/buy a step/box and step up and then off for a set amount of time while wearing a weighted pack. Simple, boring, but surprisingly efficient.

I don't really see the need for hiking in ski boots. They are simply not designed for walking in and when you ski tour you are not picking them up off the ground so the movement is different. By all means wear them a bit to break them in and try reduce risk of blisters. If you really want to exercise in them do the step ups rather than hiking.

Don't see the need for ankle weights. Again, when ski touring you are not picking up the boot each step like a mountaineer would. Better option is to do some strength exercises (ideally you should have some basic strength training work in there regardless - squats, lunges, core etc.).

High intensity work is an interesting one. There are some studies showing tremendous benefit. But when you step back and look at it as part of a whole training program it looks less important. The fact is most of the elite endurance athletes are doing 80%+ (some even 90%+) training at moderate intensities and really just using hiit to peak for events. There are issues with recovery and sustainability.

The key is really building that aerobic base. It's not like a cycle race for instance where you need those extra gears to sprint at times and then recover, which is what the hiit training will provide. So I don't think it's really necessary for a recreational ski tourer whos heart rate will ideally stay below aet. Why go through the suffering of hiit and the extra stress and recovery time put on your body when you can get ideal adaptations for ski touring from moderate intensity exercise and recover much quicker.

If you want a serious training plan the guys at uphill athlete have ski touring plans. They are behind "the" book for uphill training (well worth a read) and have a lot of experience training all kinds of athletes including ski tourers like Cody Townsend. (I'm not affiliated in any way, but rate them quite highly).

The other things to consider are weight - lower bodyweight is certainly going to help if you have some pounds to lose. Also fueling during ski touring is very important. You certainly want to be taking in kcal during the activity, exactly what and how much is a whole topic in itself - but most would agree high in carbs. Carbohydrate drinks (i.e. Powerade) and gels are a good option - lightweight and easily consumable. Some people prefer solid foods like fruit and bars.
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What @boarder2020, says.

I would only add a couple of points.

Strength training to complement the bulk of base building exercise is fundamental. Ideally this shouldn't just be any old training in a gym, but based in 3 phases; 1) core and general strength training for a number of months alongside base building to enable your body to adapt to an increased and different training load and to prepare it for 2) maximum strength phase of at least 2 months. With a reduced number (3/4) of key exercises (squats/weighted step ups/weighted pull ups/dead lifts for example), only after which 3) the muscular endurance phase should start. This includes activities such as weighted hill climbs and the like.

Of course corners can be cut, and many will start slogging uphill with a heavy bag from day 1. The long term rewards come from a methodical approach. The information on the Uphill Athlete website explains the approach and provides a ton of helpful training information. Better still, buy the books.

And "fuelling". The UA mantra, in common with most endurance training advice, is train on fat, compete on carbs. Works for me. Lots of information on Phil Maffetone's website on this as well. It is counterproductive chugging down lucosade and the like before or during a training walk or run. May be a different story if you are trudging up Mont Blanc with your skis on your back.
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Do anything that suits, but if you can do it at altitude, all the better.
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Training for the up hill athlete is a great book that will give you all the bumf you need to know.
Long and steady to start, build the base to move on from.
My sport is MTB, It keeps my heart and lungs in shape when I'm spinning on the ups and gives my legs a good work out pumping terrain on the downs. About now I'll start jogging and doing some leg blasters to be ski fit
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The thing is you can be fit as a butchers dog, but if your technique is bad your fitness will only help to a degree, I've seen this on numerous occasions when I have fit younger mates come out and I take them for a ski-tour*

I was thinking about this subject today as I'm back into my running, and was out on the South Downs today with a route that has quite a few long drags as well as some short sharp steep climbs.

My times on the climbs put me in the top 6-10% even with my age handicap whereas on the flats (along the promenade) I'm more 25-30%, which has me thinking is it my cycling strength helping me power up the uphill segments??

But no doubt about it running uphill hard is the best.

*of course I try and find a route with gnarly icy traverses along with a few steep kick turns thrown in for good measure Laughing
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One of my customers is currently training for an unsupported South Pole attempt:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUSVbmujO-k/
&
https://www.instagram.com/p/CTru_x0j8ka/
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
HammondR wrote:


And "fuelling". The UA mantra, in common with most endurance training advice, is train on fat, compete on carbs. Works for me. Lots of information on Phil Maffetone's website on this as well. It is counterproductive chugging down lucosade and the like before or during a training walk or run. May be a different story if you are trudging up Mont Blanc with your skis on your back.


Actually this is the one thing I disagree with UA about, and I wouldn't say is "common" in the endurance community (but I'm thinking more of runners and triathletes than mountain sports). The idea of becoming "fat-adapted" is great in theory, but the science just doesn't support it. Even if you eat a very high fat low carb diet you're substrate oxygenisation percentage basically switches back to whatever it was before as soon as you ingest some carbs.

On the other hand we know that carbs improve performance. We also see those that regularly train with carbs are able to handle greater amounts during exercise without any GI issues. Why would you not maximise training? It just makes sense to me that you train how you would compete, you don't want to be trying out new things on a competition/ski tour day when they could be detrimental some people just don't handle gels/fructose/solids well. Better to find out what works in training when mistakes don't lose you an enjoyable touring day.
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Fittest ski tourers I ever toured with who were based in the UK would run up and down scafell pike twice while wearing their fully packed ski touring rucksacks.

During the week I use a cross trainer with an incline, often only use the legs (no use of arms). At the weekends I get out in the mountains round here up to around 2500m. Before a big multiday tour it's a drive over to one of the glaciers (e.g. Dachstein, Kitzsteinhorn) to train and acclimatise.
One of the tips from a book mentioned earlier in this thread is to start from somewhere with a water source. Fill up water bottles before the ascent and put them in your backpack. Ditch the water at the top to save your kness on the way down.

If you only have access to flat country then dragging old tyres on a rope with some sort of harness should help.
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DB wrote:
.....If you only have access to flat country then dragging old tyres on a rope with some sort of harness should help.....


Think that may get a few looks if I were to attempt that along the Promenade here Laughing

This was a good workout - nothing like a bit of "Sky Running"

https://www.strava.com/activities/5662372298

Game plan is back to the Mountains, mid-November for the early season snow, which we missed out on last season, and can be some great touring in areas not usually accessible as you can drive to them pre-season* which you can't in the Spring.

*rain in the valley means roads are not snow-bound so you can drive up to the snow-line circa 2,100m
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Sheesh, this makes it sound like you need to be an elite athlete before you even think about skinning anywhere. I wouldn’t discourage anyone from working on their fitness but it’s a lot easier to save time on the up by limiting faff and pacing yourself so you only need a 5 minute stop every hour, even if that means walking really slowly.

If you can handle a solid day of hill walking you’ll be fine with most groups
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@Arno, fair point, but I think your crew is quite experienced.

A guide I know well always aims for 300m per hour with breaks.

But obviously doing that somewhere like Lyngen is a damn site easier than starting at 1,850m, for most out on their holidays and therefore unacclimatized the wheels start to fall off around 2,200m+
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Thanks @Arno, I've been waiting to read a comment from a mere mortal.
The secret is in steady pace, rhythm and relaxed technique. On many occasions I've had the guide tell people to ease off, never ever go faster! This particularly applies as the altitude increases.
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@Arno, @Rogerdodger, I agree, but I think "pacing" and "not faffing" themselves require training, unless you're with a guide or someone experienced AND you listen to them (!).

Otherwise it's very hard for people to know what a sensible pace is. Then they overdress, get too hot and NEED to stop and faff, because they weren't experienced enough to know how much heat they generate and went out too fast. Then they're sweaty, and get slower because they didn't allow for fatigue slowing them down, so now they need to stop and put more clothes on. Then they don't eat enough, so fade after 90 mins, because they've never exercised for more than an hour, etc

Learning how your body behaves can be as important as the physical benefit from training.

I agree that there's some marginal gains type stuff in this thread, and stand by my original comment - regular sustained moderate aerobic exercise of any kind. My running is almost exclusively on the flat because that's what I can easily do regularly. Doesn't hold me back on climbs.
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The trouble my fitness works against me, as 90% of the time I'm the one breaking trail, and that really beasts you, obviously depending on snow-pack.

@Arno, think it was one of your mates, Costin ? who joined us, fit guy, and I let him do a stint on the front, think he lasted about 5-10 minutes Laughing

But it was the beginning of the season Dec 3rd, but we'd already clocked up a number of sorties since Nov 6th so we were well acclimatised!

Looking back at the photos that was a cracking start to the season, getting quite excited at the prospect, fingers crossed!!!

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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Arno wrote:
Sheesh, this makes it sound like you need to be an elite athlete before you even think about skinning anywhere. I wouldn’t discourage anyone from working on their fitness but it’s a lot easier to save time on the up by limiting faff and pacing yourself so you only need a 5 minute stop every hour, even if that means walking really slowly.

If you can handle a solid day of hill walking you’ll be fine with most groups


Most flatland tourist groups maybe but if the group includes tourers who are based in or near to mountains (as is the OP) the pace will normally be quicker.
Didn't take this thread as being aimed at all tourers, just a guy/girl who lives in Canada asking others how they trained, but maybe they live in Nelson nr Burnley,UK rather than Nelson BC .
The days are short in winter, reduced either by available light or the spring sun making slopes dangerous in the early afternoon. Depends what the tourer wants to do but a lower level of fitness will rule out certain tours.

Trips like this will be out of their reach ....


http://youtube.com/v/GfwFxH9YIOo

Knowing exactly where everything is in the backpack can save a lot of faffing time. Packing it the same each time and putting small things (thin gloves, beanie, snacks etc) in a small compartment or thin plastic bag helps me to locate things quicker.
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@Weathercam breaking trail is a mugs game Laughing

It is quite hard to regulate your speed when you’re at the front. On the rare occasions that I’m in front I usually find myself slowly speeding up and tiring myself out
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BobinCH wrote:
stuarth wrote:
motdoc wrote:
Eat less pies drink less beer.

Puzzled Puzzled
Surely no amount of uphill prowess is worth that? Madeye-Smiley


And there’s me thinking one of the reasons to go ski touring is so that you can eat more pies and drink more beer!?!?


I always knew you were an overall good guy and a valuable friend. This post just confirms it.
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@arno to be fair nobody suggested you had to be superfit to tour. Original question was about what people do in off-season to help prepare to tour, so the advice given is going to be more at the performance end of things. I'm sure if a beginner was asking about first trip out nobody would tell them "forget about it until you have done at least 6 weeks pre-training".

I will say it is a lot more enjoyable when you are fitter and not slogging away trying to keep up with the group. Also you can do more each day and tend to recover a lot quicker. Besides all the obvious health benefits of regular exercise anyway.

For pacing nothing beats a heart rate monitor*. Set an alarm to go off if you go above your aerobic threshold and you can't go too far wrong.

*I suspect years of experience is just as effective, but a much more long term learning curve.
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Weathercam wrote:
Think that may get a few looks if I were to attempt that along the Promenade here Laughing


Tell them you're a lorry driver but your lorry ran out of petrol so you are moving it piece by piece - you'll be as popular as Captin Tom Moore in no time. wink
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Thanks for all the input. I'm already a fan of the weights.
Ill be walking up the hills with my pack on the weekends no doubt!
I suppose really I just have to be fitter than a couple of other people in the group Smile But more is more and I'd like as many runs as possible.
I quit with carbs for training unless I'm going long or fast as they seem to rot my teeth. Apples and boiled eggs for me.
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boarder2020 wrote:
For pacing nothing beats a heart rate monitor*. Set an alarm to go off if you go above your aerobic threshold and you can't go too far wrong.


For me, the ski touring (and trail running, and backpacking) equivalent of a power meter is the vertical ascent rate on my altimeter. I know what ascent rates I can sustain for different durations. The HRM takes a while to settle or adjust to different gradients, but clearly is a more "holistic" answer, accounting for effort variation in soft snow etc.
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Quote:

I quit with carbs for training unless I'm going long or fast as they seem to rot my teeth. Apples and boiled eggs for me.


Small apple - 78kcal 21g carbs
Gu energy gel - 100kcal 22g carbs

Fruit is about as high carb as you can get wink
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.... not to mention that the eggs in the huts will be pretty potent overnight. Toofy Grin
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motdoc wrote:

I suppose really I just have to be fitter than a couple of other people in the group Smile


Not really- I am totally on board with this article

https://www.powder.com/stories/skiing-as-craft/being-the-slowest-skier-is-very-important/

Cool
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