 Poster: A snowHead
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So far today I've heard from Snowbird and Mt Bachelor that for an extra charge per day of $69 or $49 respectively (or more, with dynamic pricing) you can use an "express lane" through the lift maze. There are unstated limits on how many they'll sell. On really busy days having one of these would be nice, no question. The fact that one could ski anywhere in the Alps for the same money is, um, interesting.
There are situations where I'm fine with soaking the rich. If this somehow helps keep skiing more affordable for the other 99% I might support it. But I don't do well in lines to begin with, and to see people swooping past me in this way is going to torque me off in a big way, I fear.
So I'll see you at Alta, mid-week.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting. What happens in the US will be observed with interest by European operators, no doubt.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, unlike Europe where weekends are often the quietest days on the slopes, I could certainly see why this would work in the USA where I believe it's the opposite - the majority of the week's takings are on a weekend and it can be mayhem. So in a country where paid annual vacation is very limited and people are forced to maximise their weekends instead, for sure some people would pay for a fast track.
It's no different to a members' line at a nightclub or an exclusive golf club membership. Or the priority line on the Dover-Calais ferry - you pay extra, you get on and off quicker. Getting onto every ski lift in 2 minutes instead of 30 could double or triple your vertical for the day on a weekend so if the extra charge is double a normal lift ticket, it's not actually bad value.
Long term, I suspect the only issue will be limiting the number of weekend tickets but it'll just become a status-led commodity like everything else in the land of capitalism.
Can't see it working in France - the ESF already have priority on every lift line; they're not going to give that up to a random Russian oligarch.
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Isn't this what Les Arcs is doing with the Essential and Premium passes? It reads as if there will be priority queues and 2 of the 3 levels of pass will give access to them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would have thought the main issue would be the point where you get on the lift, as it would have to be supervised / managed at all times.
At Whistler I’ve seen/used the singles lanes which tries to ensure chair lifts are fully occupied, and I never experienced any issues, as it’s a case of no one loosing out. But even these had to be managed to stop groups of skiers pretending to be single skiers to avoid waiting. However, in the above scenario, your place in the queue is being lost to the queue jumper/cutter which is liable to cause conflict particularly if it happens several times a day, or even several times per queue.
I have no issue with Ski School groups getting priority, as when I was learning loosing 50%+ of your lesson time to standing in a queue was no fun.
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I think a better solution would be to move to virtual queuing like the most sophisticated theme parks are doing. You select the lift to use and would be given a time to ride it. That way you can chill somewhere nicer than a lift queue - or take your time skiing down because you know your lift isn’t for another 15 mins.
I don’t see many skiers doing first to last lift, I think physical limitations generally control the amount of skiing people do in a day.
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| toyah807 wrote: |
| Isn't this what Les Arcs is doing with the Essential and Premium passes? It reads as if there will be priority queues and 2 of the 3 levels of pass will give access to them. |
Yes, but that's not the primary difference between Essential and Premium passes. The main difference is that the Essential pass covers Les Arcs only, while the Premium pass is for the entire Paradiski domain of Les Arcs and La Plagne. Outside of school holiday weeks I've not found the priority lines especially useful.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| I think a better solution would be to move to virtual queuing like the most sophisticated theme parks are doing. |
But increasingly moving to chargeable product for priority line access, either direct sales or by virtue of paying for accommodation in premium hotels giving you 'front of lone' access.
One of the worst lift bottlenecks in Les Arcs is the queue for the Aiguille Rouge cablecar, which you can now pay for a reserved time at which you head straight to the front of the line.
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Pay more, get better service.
Seems like a traditionally N American approach to me.
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Snowbird's "seven summits" club has given zero-queue access for years, also access to the resort before the 1st public tram.
Any vehicle parked close to the lifts probably has that status too. The first public tram has always been restricted to season
ticket holders (and Seven Summits people) only in my time at least. It's not a new thing, just a different way to sell it.
There's certainly space for more people on those early morning trams most of the time, so I don't much care if they
monetise some of that. You can see how you may balance that as a business.
Alta's policy regarding preventing snowboarders swooping past their skiers is perhaps a similar commercial choice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My wife went to Bulgaria skiing a couple of years ago, and certain hotels had a quick access pass to the gondola up to the mountain. I can't remember if it was a paid extra or just included with the hotel. It was well worth the money as the queue was measured in hours otherwise....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There are a bunch of NA resorts that already have some version of this, for example I think if you buy a condo in the official resort village you get all kinds of priviliges. I wonder how it works -- do they alternate with the schlubs getting on the lift? That sounds like fun.
On principle I don't like it but I have to admit that skiing is already a sport for the (relative) elite so why not? I don't ski many places with huge lines anyway so doubt it would be an issue ... but when I have been in huge lift queues I wished I had either a flamethrower...or a Fast Pass kind of thing...
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I interpret any resort that can get away with charging extra for priority lift access as being one where the lift infrastructure is inadequate and/or they sell too many tickets. That can then lead to overcrowding on the piste, for food, equipment hire and other services - so I just don't bother to go there.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
But I don't do well in lines to begin with, and to see people swooping past me in this way is going to torque me off in a big way, I fear.
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Sounds like airport security and the health system over here 
They have an incentive to lengthen the waiting times now. Nice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| I interpret any resort that can get away with charging extra for priority lift access as being one where the lift infrastructure is inadequate and/or they sell too many tickets. |
There is that and it may even be unconstitutional in France to sell priority access to what is considered "public" transport.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Orange200 wrote: |
Pay more, get better service.
Seems like a traditionally N American approach to me. |
Until they sell so many express passes that even that is a massive queue! Think Disneyland and most theme parks - there are so many "priority" passes that they are practically pointless
I am opposed. Why should money get you better access? The ski lift line is a beautiful example of equity and equality! I get the monetisation and need to grow revenue streams, but I think the express lane is not the right way. Better would be earlybird passes that get you on the mountain 30 to 60 minutes before everyone else. That would reward the diehard skiers rather than those for whom money is no object. As a society we need to get away from associating privilege with money.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
So far today I've heard from Snowbird and Mt Bachelor that for an extra charge per day of $69 or $49 respectively (or more, with dynamic pricing) you can use an "express lane" through the lift maze. There are unstated limits on how many they'll sell. On really busy days having one of these would be nice, no question. The fact that one could ski anywhere in the Alps for the same money is, um, interesting.
There are situations where I'm fine with soaking the rich. If this somehow helps keep skiing more affordable for the other 99% I might support it. But I don't do well in lines to begin with, and to see people swooping past me in this way is going to torque me off in a big way, I fear.
So I'll see you at Alta, mid-week. |
Do ski schools get lift priority on the US? If so it might be cheaper to get a small group lesson for the day.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| Can't see it working in France - the ESF already have priority on every lift line; they're not going to give that up to a random Russian oligarch. |
Wouldn't your oligarch just book an ESF private lesson to get priority? The instructor can also handle booking a table for lunch.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| Can't see it working in France - the ESF already have priority on every lift line; they're not going to give that up to a random Russian oligarch. |
Wouldn't your oligarch just book an ESF private lesson to get priority? The instructor can also handle booking a table for lunch. |
Well, yes - in Courchevel for sure! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some quality on Wiki
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POWDR is one of the largest ski resort operators in North America, along with Boyne Resorts, Alterra Mountain Company, Aspen Skiing Company and Vail Resorts.[1] Unlike its competitors, POWDR focuses on being an adventure lifestyle company rather than on real estate development.[citation needed] It is owned by the Cumming family and headquartered in Park City, Utah.[2] John Cumming, who co-founded the clothing company Mountain Hardwear, and, prior to that, traveled the globe climbing big mountains as a guide for Rainier Mountaineering,[3] founded POWDR and currently serves as Chairman. In June 2018, Cumming stepped down as CEO and appointed Ramsey Bolton, previously POWDR's chief revenue officer, and Cersei Lannister, previously POWDR's chief financial officer, as co-presidents.[4] Prior to joining POWDR in 2013,[5] Martin launched the Dew Tour and served as CEO of NBC and MTV's joint action sports venture, Alli.
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@Kenzie, the answer to your question is yes. However, the snail's pace at which group lessons move (let alone the often poor quality) is contrary to the point, which is to maximize skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Scooter in Seattle,
I was thinking more of how some people do it in France - a small group of mates hire an instructor for the day & ask said instructor to show them around all the interesting bits of the ski area, making best use of the priority gates on the lifts.
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@Kenzie, that is interesting. While I hesitate to use the word "never", I can say that I have never heard of such a thing. Getting that many people to agree on the time of day let alone taking a group lesson......I'm getting a headache already. For the right group, what you suggest sounds like it could work, especially at an unfamiliar area in bad vis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Scooter in Seattle, you need some mates. True mates. Mates who care about skiing. Not skiing as a way to show off, but just to enjoy skiing.
The instructor knows where the best snow is, and has line cutting privilege, so what else is there to disagree?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@abc, you must have me confused with someone else--I've plenty of mates, thanks. And at around 50 years experience each, we don't need a lot of help finding the best snow; to assume that is the exclusive province of instructors, or even difficult, is poppycock. Over here anyway, being an instructor is proof only that the person is keen enough about becoming an instructor to do so. Many are superb skiers, many are not. I feel it might be more of a profession in the Alps, what do you think? As for line-cutting, all that experience also helps with crowd avoidance.
When we are in unfamiliar territory and need information we don't seek out instructors, we talk to the pro patrol and that would be my recommendation to anyone skiing in NA.
As for "skiing as a way to show off", no idea what that means or how it is germane to a discussion of a new and apparently somewhat controversial revenue source.
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My daughter is an instructor. I book her for a private lesson first thing on a powder day. Get some laps in with her with priority lift line. Do a bit of parenting and it costs me a hundred bucks because I make her give me back what she gets paid for the private lesson 
Paying for a priority queue sucks imo. But it’s the way of the world. Just go somewhere else or go up on foot.
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You know it makes sense.
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In Grandvalira they offer a 4 hour session with an instructor that isn't for teaching but to guide you round the mountain. Costs around £150 and you can have up to 6 in the group. On my last day skiing pre pandemic there was 40cm of powder so I booked my favourite instructor and had an absolute blast up in my top 3 of best days skiing ever. Otherwise the main pinch point lifts have a solo skier line, which I happily join when necessary.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FrediKanoute wrote: |
| ...I think some things shouldn't be commodified- queue jumping - a prime example |
I believe they tried that approach in the USSR with mixed results.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| @abc, you must have me confused with someone else |
I must be. You weren't the one who wrote:
| Quote: |
| Getting that many people to agree on the time of day let alone taking a group lesson......I'm getting a headache already. For the right group, what you suggest sounds like it could work, especially at an unfamiliar area in bad vis. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, I don't know why you need to try to provoke an argument on everything by making an aggressive assertion on something and then trying to semantically torture someone to death?
I'd previously put it down to you not being a native English speaker, though presumably your assimilation of the language is pretty good, but now it's starting to look a lot like trolling.
It seems pretty clear that @Scooter is saying it's not always really practical to put together a private skiing group, mates or no mates. And your assertion that an instructor knows all is just an assertion not the objective truth. Some might know every inch of the mountain, some barely much beyond the groomers.
Anyway despite the apparent willingness in the US to follow that model for line skipping I think it's pretty poor etiquette. And some places it's downright offensive - I once had cause to write to the CEO at Aspen due to ski school groups lapping the Cirque Poma effectively denying other paying guests any chance of upload. That I put on instructors being inconsiderate a- holes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Returning to the subject with an update: folks in Oregon are officially pissed about Mt Bachelor's proposed express lane. A petition against it already has 7,900 signatures (Bend has about 90,000 people, that's quick work) and one of its US Senators has written a letter to POWDR Corp asking for an explanation given the obvious lack of equity this brings to a sport that isn't exactly leading the league in that category to begin with.
Although that reminds me of who taught me to ski in 1969: an African-American man. How many of us can say that? Thank you Mel Campbell, from the bottom of my heart!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Although that reminds me of who taught me to ski in 1969: an African-American man.
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Well that's super cool.
On topic, I feel like chargeable priority lines beyond instructors and their groups are a slippery slope...excuse the pun. Before you know they'll be limiting the number of seats per chair available to non-fast track customers, and selling fast track in the queues. I suppose it's a free market and customers might go elsewhere in time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Or maybe visit the hundreds, if not thousands, of ski resorts around the world where queuing isn't a problem.
Chances are the lift pass will be significantly cheaper too.
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Typical US development. The caste system, but then not by heritage but by wallet.
The top 1% have it all, middle class is erased, and the remaining 99% are slaves to the top 1%.
Still a bit of an exaggeration, but this is the direction they are going, especially when GOP is in power.
Healthcare only when you can afford to pay insurance that is 200% of European prices. If not, then forget treatment until you're a first aid candidate.
Same for wintersports, with the prices in the US, only the affluent can afford; also because as an employee you get about 50% of the days off we are used to.
And this wealth-driven difference in affordability is getting extremer by the year.
I sincerely hope that in Europe we can avoid slipping off to this level of barbarism.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
making an aggressive assertion on something...
your assertion that an instructor knows all is just an assertion not the objective truth. |
Yes, that's my assertion. You call that "aggressive assertion"?
You may have a different oppinion. But there's no objective measurement of what percentage of instructors know the mountain vs how many don't, hence no objective measure on what's the chance of a hired instructor fail to find the best snow.
On what basis do you term it as "aggressive assertion"?
As to "tormenting someone to death", the poster had made a slightly exaggerated statement about the difficulty of putting a group together. I merely counter with a similarly exaggerated opposing statement. As the saying goes, if one can dish it out, one'd better be able to take it in.
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@abc, your aggressive assertion was that he didn't have real mates and was ( or they were) somehow in it for showing off.
If you read the thread in order it looks like you've deliberately come in to weigh in on him. It's not "dishing it out" and response. You didn't read the self deprecation in the " my mates would never be organised enough" type statement?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| You didn't read the self deprecation in the " my mates would never be organised enough" type statement? |
No, I didn't.
I thought self-deprecation only applies when it's describing self... (or maybe including family? as one doesn't have a choice of family members?)
p.s.
I guess I don't get the self-deprecation because I've always been rather successful at organizing like-minded mates. Whilst I'm not into big group trips, I have no trouble getting a few mates to go at my suggestions.
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Good, then you and your mates you've so adeptly organised can crack on with your queue jumping premiums and let the shield of your righteousness protect you from incoming snowballs and jeers.
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FAQ
