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Savoie: in resorts, empty hotels because of Brexit

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Interesting article from France Bleu, La Plagne, estimates that half of their beds used by UK operators are now back on the market and in Tignes three hotels will not reopen this winter

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/economie-social/savoie-en-stations-des-hotels-vides-a-cause-du-brexit-1627047796
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@boredsurfin, interesting.

Also noting that there's a quality issue in some instances as UK operators were, errr, less than fussy ...
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It does says catered

Cant think of anything worse. Winter version of all inclusive.
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While @Mr.Egg happens to prefer self-catered for himself, the hotel sector is a big part of hospitality. And British skiers represent a significant proportion of those using them. This is a loss of people's livelihood.

The story also makes the point that in many cases the viability of the provision depended on UK staff (particularly chalets, and hotels operated by a single tour operator as chalet-hotels).

No doubt in the future the sector will adapt, but in the short term this is bad news for all of us since economic failures in the resorts will undermine the ski lift companies and the infrastructure we as skiers are dependent on.
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under a new name wrote:
@boredsurfin, interesting.

Also noting that there's a quality issue in some instances as UK operators were, errr, less than fussy ...


and their customers even less so Laughing
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j b wrote:
While @Mr.Egg happens to prefer self-catered for himself, the hotel sector is a big part of hospitality. And British skiers represent a significant proportion of those using them. This is a loss of people's livelihood.

The story also makes the point that in many cases the viability of the provision depended on UK staff (particularly chalets, and hotels operated by a single tour operator as chalet-hotels).

No doubt in the future the sector will adapt, but in the short term this is bad news for all of us since economic failures in the resorts will undermine the ski lift companies and the infrastructure we as skiers are dependent on.


… and for every non catered meal means new business for local supermarkets, restaurants, meals on wheels and other eateries.
People do have to eat after all Very Happy
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@Mr.Egg, ever heard of “price elasticity”?
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under a new name wrote:
@Mr.Egg, ever heard of “price elasticity”?


Yes, but catered options are only cost effective because of the exploitation in hiring cheap staff.
If it means people have to spend more inthe resorts, then that can be an advantage for the local town and villages businesses.
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Yes, it's a great pity. My daughter and her friends wanted to do a season this winter, for her gap year, and we would have gone to visit her a couple of times, as would the other families. There are prob plenty more like us, too, and it all adds up...
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Ricky B wrote:
Yes, it's a great pity. My daughter and her friends wanted to do a season this winter, for her gap year, and we would have gone to visit her a couple of times, as would the other families. There are prob plenty more like us, too, and it all adds up...


If there is such a big market for such a thing, then take the ‘proven’ business model & apply to other territories. Bulgaria, poland, etc.
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@Mr.Egg, but what it means is just that fewer people visit.

but. hey. eggonomics.
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I wonder which 3 it is in Tignes, given the number of hotels that have been built in the last 2 years or are still in the process of being built.

If the owners are desperate I dare say one or two will be snapped up by local operators if the demand is there.
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under a new name wrote:
@Mr.Egg, but what it means is just that fewer people visit.

but. hey. eggonomics.


Do you think it will? My outlook :-
We struggle to find a 6-7,8+ SC chalet and being close to town centre and or lifts.
We love going out to nearby pubs, restaurants as well as cooking in, etc.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It's not as simple as "British visitors will switch to S/C or put up with a hotel staffed by *perish the thought* locals". There will be a reasonable number of UK recreational skiers (who go on a holiday which involves skiing rather than are mad-keen skiers) who just won't go in future.

Less skiers = less crowds but if resorts have invested in infrastructure based on X number of visitors then it doesn't really help anyone if that calculation falls apart. Although, the reality is it will be the bank that lent to the lift co/the local govt that underwrote it that takes the hit.

I don't suppose any resorts have such a proportion of UK visitors that, on its own, it's an existential threat but who knows what the COVID fallout will be in terms of visitor numbers?
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@ben wright,

I would be surprised if many gives up skiing holidays because they cant get catered trips.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I think there are a lot of "skiing holiday = catered chalet/chalet hotel" types for whom it's a winter holiday that could be replaced by something else if the type of holiday they're used to no longer exists.

When I ran a chalet, we had plenty of visitors in that category - families where one parent wasn't really into it or older people who didn't go full-bore. For them, the chalet side of things was fairly key. A stay with us may have disabused then of that Very Happy
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@Mr.Egg, There are many posts on this forum of people saying they will not self cater on holiday.
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johnE wrote:
@Mr.Egg, There are many posts on this forum of people saying they will not self cater on holiday.


No doubt, same people who go for 2 weeks to bernidom. Live on a full monty breakfast that contains spanish tomato, dutch eggs, irish sausages, danish bacon & mushrooms grown in poo-poo because they refuse to eat any of that foreign muck.
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Mr.Egg wrote:
No doubt, same people who go for 2 weeks to bernidom. Live on a full monty breakfast that contains spanish tomato, dutch eggs, irish sausages, danish bacon & mushrooms grown in poo-poo because they refuse to eat any of that foreign muck.

Love that, I hadn't realised you were capable of Brexit irony.

But overall, some people like to go on holiday with everything organised for them, others are happy to do everything themselves, and others again like the bits they find complicated provided by a tour operator (accommodation, flights, transfer, likely ski hire and lift pass) but happy to source their own food. And people change, when our daughter was small we wanted everything organised (including childcare) which was satisfied by chalet companies, and if we hadn't done that I wonder if we would have returned to taking skiing holidays.
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Mr.Egg wrote:


people who go for 2 weeks to bernidom. Live on a full monty breakfast that contains spanish tomato, dutch eggs, irish sausages, danish bacon & mushrooms grown in poo-poo because they refuse to eat any of that foreign muck.


To be fair to you that made me laugh Laughing Laughing
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There's plenty of staff available for UK TO's that want to carry on operating, they'll just most likely be Slovakian. The workers' car park here is 50% full with SK registered cars and they all speak perfect English so I doubt staffing is really an issue.
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@Raceplate, you are right, the world will adjust but not be the same. Once someone makes British nannie qualifications available to the Slovakians (and Dutch, etc) at least some of the chalet companies may re-establish their clientele.

But the resorts will still have to find ways of making up the shortfall.
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j b wrote:
Mr.Egg wrote:
No doubt, same people who go for 2 weeks to bernidom. Live on a full monty breakfast that contains spanish tomato, dutch eggs, irish sausages, danish bacon & mushrooms grown in poo-poo because they refuse to eat any of that foreign muck.

Love that, I hadn't realised you were capable of Brexit irony.

But overall, some people like to go on holiday with everything organised for them, others are happy to do everything themselves, and others again like the bits they find complicated provided by a tour operator (accommodation, flights, transfer, likely ski hire and lift pass) but happy to source their own food. And people change, when our daughter was small we wanted everything organised (including childcare) which was satisfied by chalet companies, and if we hadn't done that I wonder if we would have returned to taking skiing holidays.


Yep, but are you described the all inclusive spanish costas holiday,akers, or the sneering skiers who like the smae things, but an added £250 lift pass!
I love austeia. I love dunkel beer. I love snitzel. I love a proper dumpling with bread in the middle. Prtezel……. Its still a love yate thing. The less i want, the more i want! Sorey.. to drunk to make that sensical!
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I love austeia two

have you been at too much of your homebrew?
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Mr.Egg wrote:
Yep, but are you described the all inclusive spanish costas holiday,akers, or the sneering skiers who like the smae things, but an added £250 lift pass!
I love austeia. I love dunkel beer. I love snitzel. I love a proper dumpling with bread in the middle. Prtezel……. Its still a love yate thing. The less i want, the more i want! Sorey.. to drunk to make that sensical!

Keep it coming, fun to read.

But seriously, though my own summer holiday preferences (when I could actually have one) are different I don't despise those who choose the Costas. While I much prefer self-catering skiing holidays, when we had a small child who needed daytime childcare, and to be in bed by the time we wanted an evening meal, a chalet worked well. We have moved on but respect the companies who continue to provide that service to other parents with young kids.

For me foreign food, washed down by foreign beer (whether Austrian, Swiss, Italian or French) adds to the experience. Or wine, or both. But for those who enjoy skiing but prefer what I think of as bland food and bland beer - well we have the skiing in common so I don't feel bad about them but it is their choice.
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@Mr.Egg, I misundersttod your holiday in "bernidom" I thought it was a suburb of the Swiss capital - a dormitory suburb
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j b wrote:
@Raceplate, you are right, the world will adjust but not be the same. Once someone makes British nannie qualifications available to the Slovakians (and Dutch, etc) at least some of the chalet companies may re-establish their clientele.

Why would you need a British nanny qualification? You're not on holiday in Britain, you're on holiday in the EU. Therefore an EU nanny qualification should be sufficient. If you're not prepared to accept a "foreign" nanny qualification, then don't go. Same as if you don't accept 220v electricity instead of 240v or driving on the right or unpasteurised cheese. Either accept that you're abroad and there will be differences from "home" or don't go.
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Who wants to cook on holiday? Been there done that moved on. I suspect there is a cohort of middle aged skiers for whom Covid, Brexit, increased cost more hassle and the end of sociable chalet holidays may mean the end of overseas 6 day ski holidays. I don’t see that gap being filled by younger skiers post University and can imagine Covid being a bit of a turning point for UK holiday skiing.
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 You know it makes sense.
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Peter S wrote:
Who wants to cook on holiday? Been there done that moved on. I suspect there is a cohort of middle aged skiers for whom Covid, Brexit, increased cost more hassle and the end of sociable chalet holidays may mean the end of overseas 6 day ski holidays. I don’t see that gap being filled by younger skiers post University and can imagine Covid being a bit of a turning point for UK holiday skiing.
In principle, I agree with these sentiments. But ultimately, the French want British tourism income. Macron is a Napoleonic roadblock but I'm pretty sure his days are numbered. Brexit was always going to cause short term problems but economics will prevail and Covid permitting, reciprocal season working visas etc. will be agreed and ski seasons will return to as they were before (with a few less bums).
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@Raceplate,
Quote:

ski seasons will return to as they were before


Not quite. The days of the (predominantly) English (yep, not Scottish, in the main, some notable examples as exceptions) catered chalet masquerading as a country house party and staffed by "pretty young things*" has been over for a few years now, due EU employment/tax legislation.

* I was one, not pretty, but young, 3 seasons.

But otherwise, I am not seeing anything very new for the coming season. Hahaha could have said all that at this time 2 years ago. How we all laughed.
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The other day I had a long chat over dinner with a friend who runs a ski-school here (non ESF), and it wasn't so much talking about the potential lack of Brits, as Serre Che Brit visitors, on the whole, tend to be independent travellers nowadays as all the big TOs pulled out a few years ago, but she said she was being inundated with CVs from instructors from all the big resorts where Brits are a key element as they fear there will no longer be the work for them at their non-ESF schools etc due to the overall lack of Brits, Morzine being one resort that was mentioned along with Tignes.
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@Raceplate,
It's not just visas (which of course control the mother-tongue English labour pool). Unless France (and to a lesser degree Austria) reconsider their working hours/minimum pay legislation, the low to mid-market ski chalet model will be dead in the water, because it is these laws which have so much influence on the chalet operators' outgoings, nomatter the nationality of the staff. Typically, providing equipment and season pass in return for a reduced pay packet was outlawed way before Brexit.
Yes, Brexit was going to be a problem, but the labour laws were changed/re-interpeted before Brexit took effect.
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@Nemisis, exactly.

Mind you, with tips and free lunches, on £40 a week (1989) my first season I came home £400 richer, and with new top of the range skis, boots and bindings ... and I think I partied every night ... and I know I skied 6 days out of 7 ... Skullie

So I wasn't complaining.
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The decline of chalet holidays seems unlikely to be filled by more expensive and less sociable hotel centred trips?
I carnt see younger people filling the big gap left by the baby boomers mainly because of higher costs post university and the weak UK economy. Also there is a growing cohort of younger people who may find the climate impacts of the alpine ski industry slightly distasteful.
I imagine in a time of change there will be opportunities for innovation but right now i carnt see a lot of positives in the short term for UK ski holidays to the Alps.
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Raceplate wrote:
Why would you need a British nanny qualification? You're not on holiday in Britain, you're on holiday in the EU. Therefore an EU nanny qualification should be sufficient.

I think you will find in practice most parents of infant and pre-school kids are very sensitive about having nannies they can trust. Those who go skiing with such young kids are likely to be those also using nurseries in the UK and used to thinking about standards. The likes of Esprit are well aware of this.

I am sure though there are companies looking at how they can provide the necessary assurances for nannies with qualifications unfamiliar to parents.

Once kids are school age, then care is effectively an all-day "after-school club" where precise qualifications matter less. But many of the families using those holidays graduate from the earlier nursery care.
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Pre Brexit we worked as Chalet Hosts (as well as Transfer Drivers). Given the nature of our customers, one week a year holiday, that happens to contain skiing, rather than keen skiers, I can well imagine many of them never returning. For many they will have missed one or two winters, so got out of the annual habit, and when they start looking will find drastically reduced choice, and much higher prices.
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For the record Benidorm in winter is absolutely brilliant fun.

Signed

NN
Recovered Snob
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@Nadenoodlee, Very Happy We hope to get back there after the season finishes here! Also hope to get a month's skiing in if possible (which is much more expensive without a job in the Alps)
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@RobinS, I suspect self catering ...
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@j b, we went to a family friendly place earlier in the summer. British nannies (and staff generally) had mostly been replaced with Irish. Suspect Irish students will have no problem finding gap year/summer holiday work in Europe
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