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Club Bluesky: Room for a new Club following demise of SCGB?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
AL9000 wrote:
Like a tired, ageing Phoenix, it’s being eaten alive by untreatable, microscopic money-eating superbugs, from the inside.


That's roughly it. Superbug = Rep - both financially and from a legal peril point of view.

After the arrest and trial of Rep Ken P, the legal and insurance advice brought on the demise of leading - now the official club line from the FAQs is:

Quote:
Q - CAN I STILL SKI WITH A SKI CLUB REP?  A - Yes, our Reps are encouraged to ski alongside members in a social capacity. Although our Ski Club Reps are no longer Ski Club “Leaders”, our Reps are there to help facilitate a great day of social skiing. Although the Reps will no longer wear their blue jackets and lead from the front, the Rep can still share their knowledge of the mountain and enable social-skiing groups to get the most out of the days skiing. Members can form social skiing groups, where each member of the group is equal, those within the group with specific knowledge can share their wisdom. The Reps knowledge of a resort if of course valuable and our Reps are encouraged to share this knowledge with the group.

Reps will also play a vital role still on our Ski Club Freshtracks holiday, where they will either “back-mark” behind one of the many incredible guides on the Freshtracks trips, or they will help the members form social skiing groups, joining the groups for a great day on the mountain.


Despite that, on this very forum, in just the last week, we have two club reps who clearly don't think that applies to them:

colinstone wrote:
After 11 years as a SCGB Leader/Rep in Muerren, plus spending most of the season there, I can take people who have been there 40+ years to new powder stashes..............
.............I actually don't think much will change in CH, in fact there could be a greater freedom to be a little more adventurous and take the proficient to some really great spots and runs.
If I can deliver a daily fun adventure to the members, then my job is done.


Then a week ago another Rep said:

Quote:
I’m hoping to be in Sauze D’Oulx next year and would love to show you round the mountains and win you back as a member!


Unless I'm misreading it, this is all leading, and some of it off-piste, and all of it uninsured from the club's third party liability standpoint.

Aside from the catastrophic financials, my understanding of the poor relationship the ex-CEO had with the 'rep-loaded' Council, was all over leading. There was pressure to reinstate an under the table style of leading, and the ex-CEO even had to fly in lawyers to explain exactly why that wouldn't wash, yet still they continue with it. If two have gone public with it on snowheads, can you imagine how many just carry on leading.

Now, personally, I don't think there's much wrong with one properly trained and competent skier with local knowledge, leading a group around the pistes in good conditions. (Off-piste, a different matter, let's not forget certain deaths and injuries over the years). BUT, that's not what the club's insurers think and nor do many ski resort authorities, especially in France. So leading has ended and they have successfully killed the golden goose. The club was always on borrowed time from that moment on.

You won't have too long to wait to see the accounts of the Club y/e 30.04.21 - the rot will probably have been stopped but the decline, especially in members, will be all too obvious.

Do we need a new Blue Sky club? No, it's 2021.
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof wrote:

Basically Snowheads has gutted the profitable parts of the old SCGB (Tour Operator business) fed by a discussion forum without taking on the costly / high maintenance stuff they used to do and be gatekeepers for.

Looking in from the other side of the pond, ski trip TO is entirely a niche handled within regular beach holiday TOs. It looks to me like ski only TO is not a sustainable business model! (the entire travel industry has been changing the last 10 years or so. So perhaps ski only TO WAS profitable before. But not any more in today's "information age")

Snowhead is not a standalone TO. Bashes are semi self-organized. Badmin only does the in-resort portion of the holiday. No organizing flights, no sorting replacement transport when too much snow stops snowheads from reaching their pre-booked lodging, etc.

Snowhead bash attendees have to self-organize a good part of the holidays, albeit with helps and suggestions from other helpful snowheads. On my first bash, I flew in from across the pond. I had to sort my own flight entirely by myself, as no other snowheads were doing the same. Still, the hunt for ground transfer was made easier as other snowheads were doing something similar. Then, when my flight was delayed by a day. I had to sort out my own alternative transport to the resort (no different from the previous arrangement, just a day late). On the flight over, I met another skiers who were supposed to be "taken care of" by a TO, to a different resort. He was a bit unsure of his alternative transport because he didn't do the research I had done for myself. I put him at ease by walking with him to the train station...

My point is, snowhead isn't pretending to be a traditional TO. Snowhead attendees are still DIY'ers. It's just this forum being a good source of relevant information very specific to the bashes because many others are doing exactly the same. It attracts a somewhat different crowd than a typical TO. Basically, a bunch of DIY'ers who want to share their holidays with other self-organizers. A group of cats who are very motivated going to the same feast but need not be herded to get there.

Quote:

The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo) but clearly some activities are very costly with little reward.

And as such, those unrewarding activities should be dropped.
latest report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@abc, remember from a UK (and indeed EU) legal viewpoint the second you package two products together you are a Tour Operator. So if you take money for hotels + lift passes plus maybe tuition you are a package tour operator and that has certain legal responsibilities.

From the DTI

Quote:
The Package Travel Regulations - the Law Relating to Package Travel The marketing, sale and performance of package holidays sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom are regulated by The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 (SI 1992 No 3288). The Regulations apply to anyone who organises packages whether they are for profit or not, and whether they are for business or club purposes.


You can rapidly find yourself down the same legal rabbit hole that the SCGB finds itself with guiding.
ski holidays
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
@davidof, that maybe.

So if you arrange to hire a house for your extended family for the weekend, you're a TO?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc wrote:
So if you arrange to hire a house for your extended family for the weekend, you're a TO?

No, you are not "packaging" two or more things together.

Most local clubs in the UK just use a TO and get the group discount, they don't put together the package themselves, doesn't make any difference whether the TO does beach holidays as well.
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
rjs wrote:
abc wrote:
So if you arrange to hire a house for your extended family for the weekend, you're a TO?

No, you are not "packaging" two or more things together.

But if I add a boat ride to and from the mainland to the island where the house is located, does that become a "package"?

Quote:

Most local clubs in the UK just use a TO and get the group discount, they don't put together the package themselves, doesn't make any difference whether the TO does beach holidays as well.

My comment about winter only TO is due to the short season of winter. Makes it much more difficult to sustain a "business".
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pruman wrote:


Aside from the catastrophic financials, my understanding of the poor relationship the ex-CEO had with the 'rep-loaded' Council, was all over leading. There was pressure to reinstate an under the table style of leading, and the ex-CEO even had to fly in lawyers to explain exactly why that wouldn't wash, yet still they continue with it. If two have gone public with it on snowheads, can you imagine how many just carry on leading.


The ex-CEO was also a rep. As soon as I got on council I asked to see, amongst other things, the legal advice in full. Access was denied. Pisteoff also asked to see the legal advice in full. Access was denied.

Pisteoff had also asked to see the management accounts. Access was denied, we now know because there were no management accounts and they’d been running things blind for months, haemorrhaging cash all the while. To cover their tracks they (chair and CEO) even tried to use the Club’s lawyers to stop us finding out the full extent of the damage they’d done!

I’ve done the right thing all they way down the line, always by the book and always with the interests of the club first!

In the end the lawyer, who was in London anyway, came in and briefed us. Why should we have taken the word of those two idiots on anything? Personally, I wouldn’t leave either of them in charge of an office raffle.

There was no attempt to bring anything under the table. Where did you get the rubbish from? PM me the source.
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I think the 2 items for a package are quite specific and include accomodation, flights, car hire and probably a couple of other things. You can't just add something and it becomes a package deal.
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
What has happened in the past 25 years?

The internet has been a further industrial revolution, it has massively changed the way we do things, diy ski trips are far easier, less need for tour ops.

The cost of housing in the UK has gone up massively, hitting young people particularly hard, on a lab assistant's salary, owning my own house in the late 80's, I could still afford to go skiing 3 weeks each season.

Has the low cost end of the market disappeared? Young world/Panorama, Top Deck, who remembers them? Are T/Os cutting out the cheap end and diy is a bit scary for first timers?

Snowheads is run in the total opposite way to the way SCGB was run, compare BU54DUB (admins VW van) to swanky London HQ! I think this is the way more things will be run in future, from cheap offices at the back of the garage, or a laptop on the table of a cafe anywhere in the world.

Each to their own as far as holidays are concerned, I'm happy to work all summer to pay for skiing. Even if I didn't go skiing, I doubt I would bother with summer holidays.

There are already ski clubs around the UK that cater for training & racing.

When I was a member of SCGB I found the discounts were useless, you could always find better discounts elsewhere. Social skiing with th rep was the only reason for membership.

Maybe the umbrella organisation for UK snowsport clubs, SSUK or whatever it is could arrange insurance deals.

Social skiing is probably the biggest vacuum? Even those skiing with a family group may want to spend a day with faster skiers or offpiste? I certainly found this need. I think resorts are reluctant to encourage this as many join a ski school for social reasons so a cheap/free buddy meet up system would be counter productive.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The internet revolution, covid and other things have been a forest fire, time to see what will grow from the ashes or take the opportunity ourselves.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@tangowaggon, There isn't an umbrella organisation for UK snowport clubs, they tend to be affiliated to one of the home nations bodies like Snowsport England, there has been insurance available in the past through SSE.
snow conditions
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rjs wrote:
@tangowaggon, There isn't an umbrella organisation for UK snowport clubs, they tend to be affiliated to one of the home nations bodies like Snowsport England, there has been insurance available in the past through SSE.


This is what I meant by umbrella organisation, such as SSE that clubs can affiliate to
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
abc wrote:

But if I add a boat ride to and from the mainland to the island where the house is located, does that become a "package"?
.


It depends but that would probably be considered a local transfer and is specifically excluded from the legislation.

And in your case you said it is a "one" off let, so would not be covered either.

But say you created "Bridgeheads" and once per year you organize a trip to a house for a bridge tournament. You rent the house from ABC rentals for a week and you get Mr Bridger Events to organize the bridge match. You charge club members a fee for both. That is a package.

Obviously someone booking their own flight then getting delayed couldn't claim a refund for their Bridge fees or accommodation as it is not part of the package. However if the house burns down then can expect both accommodation and bridge fees to be refunded.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

And in your case you said it is a "one" off let, so would not be covered either.

But say you created "Bridgeheads" and once per year you organize a trip to a house for a bridge tournament. You rent the house from ABC rentals for a week and you get Mr Bridger Events to organize the bridge match. You charge club members a fee for both. That is a package.

What if I let the house at the same time each year, invite my extended family AND THEIR PARTNERS. Without creating an entity "bridgeheads", but just form a Facebook group called "bridgeheads"?

And just to cover the deposit of the let, I may even ask the "family members" to PayPal me their portion of the deposit?

Not trying to be pedantic. But the travel landscape had fundamentally changed the past 10 or so years. How much of the existing laws governing TO still applies?

(the above example is surprisingly close to what happens with my mother's bridge circle. They go to an island in Maine once a year, on the same weekend, to play bridge all day long and eat lobster afterwards, for a weekend! Very Happy It started when one of the house owner was part of the bridge circle. But when she passed away, the group continue to go there on the same weekend, renting the house from the family. While there's no fee for the bridge tournament, there's for the lobster! Laughing )
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
A key challenge for SCGB is the rep / leader issue - which has always been the key differentiator and recruitment tool - people want this. Volunteer leading IS legal, in France and elsewhere, and happens a lot - in fact the key issue in French law is that you are third party insured for volunteer leading, and some insurers offer this. I you lead you have risks, and if there is an accident it could easily be a complete nightmare and you will certainly need legal representation etc. But behave sensibly, make sure you're insured and don't take payment and you can lead. However anything that appears professional (which goes beyond payments and benefits, eg a specific benefit of a club that you pay to be a member of) makes you vulnerable to prosecution. Sadly the risk with SCGB is increased because they have been found guilty in the KP case ... and SCGB doesn't want to risk the organisation to protect the individual leader / rep (sadly they are perfectly capable of abandoning a 'social rep' in France who chooses to ski with and implicitly lead (whether from back or front). So ironically SCGB is less able to offer volunteer leading than a new club - personally I would be more comfortable leading a group in say Tignes when I wasn't "on duty" for SCGB in any capacity. It feels to me that there is room for some blue sky thinking about what a club for the 2020's and beyond would look like.
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@homers double, but a club, for any kind of sport, can be a structured and effective way for the more experienced to help newbies, improvers, less confident people access, enjoy and develop their competence in that sport.

They’re about contributing, as well as personally benefiting.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@pisteoff, personally I would be more comfortable leading a group in say Tignes when I wasn't "on duty" for SCGB in any capacity. It feels to me that there is room for some blue sky thinking about what a club for the 2020's and beyond would look like.

Which could be achieved by long term members in resorts meeting fellow members and even going out on the snow with them.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc wrote:

What if I let the house at the same time each year, invite my extended family AND THEIR PARTNERS. Without creating an entity "bridgeheads", but just form a Facebook group called "bridgeheads"?

And just to cover the deposit of the let, I may even ask the "family members" to PayPal me their portion of the deposit?

Not trying to be pedantic. But the travel landscape had fundamentally changed the past 10 or so years. How much of the existing laws governing TO still applies?

(the above example is surprisingly close to what happens with my mother's bridge circle. They go to an island in Maine once a year, on the same weekend, to play bridge all day long and eat lobster afterwards, for a weekend! Very Happy It started when one of the house owner was part of the bridge circle. But when she passed away, the group continue to go there on the same weekend, renting the house from the family. While there's no fee for the bridge tournament, there's for the lobster! Laughing )


If you are setting up as a tour operator / package holiday vendor then I'd suggest reading the relevant legislation before you do. The "Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018" which is a transposition of the EU directive so will be similar in EU countries, would be a good place to start if you are operating in the UK or EEA or selling packages in those countries.

Did you get smoke alarms fitted to grandma's houses before you let it? Are there fire extinguishers on each floor with a safe escape route clearly indicated by emergency lighting?
ski holidays
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Quote:

Which could be achieved by long term members in resorts meeting fellow members and even going out on the snow with them.

Yes, and this is occurring in Val D'Isere, and a number of other resorts, but mostly NOT under the SCGB banner. (a couple of the groups I know of are deliberately independent of SCGB). In-resort group skiing, member-meet-member, ski with like minded is important for many - perhaps you are on your own, or with a group that likes different skiing (off piste?), perhaps you want to get to know a new resort etc.
The issue is that some organisation is needed, especially to widen the group in any particular resort and allow new members in. SCGB seems to have dropped this ball, is making itself unappealing to many and in any case the adverse legal case means that if you ski under the SCGB banner and are the most experienced skier or otherwise the 'leader' you are taking serious risks. I think SCGB is missing a trick - and an "obligation" - by not providing legal cover in these cases, the end result is that as an (ex) leader/rep you would be taking silly risks to lead a SCGB group - unless and until they sort this out. So I feel there is a role for a national club which supports in resort group skiing and social, just not sure SCGB will sort itself out, as a members club it is just too burdened by its expensive, too exclusive albeit good holiday business. - For me it behaves as a holiday business with a loyalty club, rather than a members club - hence the question - what would a relevant national Ski Club look like today?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
>and are the most experienced skier or otherwise the 'leader' you are taking serious risks.

Surely, that is no different to the usual alpine rule that the most experienced person carrys the can in a mishap.
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
pisteoff wrote:
I think SCGB is missing a trick - and an "obligation" - by not providing legal cover in these cases, the end result is that as an (ex) leader/rep you would be taking silly risks to lead a SCGB group - unless and until they sort this out. So I feel there is a role for a national club which supports in resort group skiing and social, just not sure SCGB will sort itself out, as a members club it is just too burdened by its expensive, too exclusive albeit good holiday business. - For me it behaves as a holiday business with a loyalty club, rather than a members club - hence the question - what would a relevant national Ski Club look like today?


To come back to what ABC is saying above. Surely the world has moved on from the SCGB and even Snowheads; those are old wars and lost battles. It is all done on Facebook and WhatsApp groups these days, that seems to be what anyone under 50 is using to organize their skiing. No one needs to subsidize old Boffo's ski holiday so he can show them some mountain restaurant he's getting kickbacks from.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

It is all done on Facebook and WhatsApp groups these days, that seems to be what anyone under 50 is using to organize their skiing

Not sure that's right. Facebook is tumbling out of favour, whatsapp is fine for closed (smaller) groups, but the way people use that is changing too. We all expect to go to our phones and find everything we want, network as we want and organise on the phone. You are though right that paying to subsidise old Boffo's ski holiday etc is not on - But how about a free (or near free) club, website and app? Whatsapp groups would spin out of this, but you would always have a wider club to draw from, in resort snow reports, local knowledge, opportunity to meet up in a new resort, knowledgeable 'leaders', and people to ski with, even when you go somewhere without your own friendship group in tow. I would pay (nothing) to be part of that! ... and happily lead groups in resorts I knew (insurance permitting) - truth is you need to know resorts if you want to explore all mountain, and that is something the younger generation wants (if they still want to ski at all).
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
pisteoff wrote:
But how about a free (or near free) club, website and app?

Which is pretty much Snowheads. It also has the advantage of not being a formal club with subscription-only members, which might be an important defence when the French clamp down on "guiding".

As I said above, if people link up by meeting in a bar at the appointed time, it is up to them what they do and how they contact each other (Whatsapp likely to be popular). There is no need for formal leading, people can go in groups if they wish (with the most experienced being effectively an unofficial leader) or just get advice on itineries. And of course make plans to meet for coffee/lunch/evening meals as they wish. It allows for real-life situations where not every resort has season-long Snowheads in residence, but some week or fortnight visitors may be returners.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@pisteoff, I think you are right about the SCGB being tainted by history and therefore individuals acting in their own capacity for no reward are probably at a greater risk with SCGB affiliation than not. Not sure that a new phoenix "club" is the exact answer though.

It's really about a platform and the key is uptake of that platform and consequent engagement. 18th -20th century = Club. 21st century = Community. Of course "community" is a much misused term but I'd say it obviously in this sense isn't a lazy way of referring to a ethnogeographic grouping or a notional set of everyone who has dabbled in a particular thing, but a group of people who have at least one thing in common and at least a curiosity and willingness in exploring whether it can develop. Or sit on the sidelines and argue of course.

That's not to say there are not any number of "passive" sHs who frankly can't be arsed with the online gabber but turn up on bashes and have a perfectly good time.

Really as we've said before the opportunity IMV is about being Ski Tinder, perhaps with a platform insurance offering to cover liability for accidents while consenting under the Ski Tinder process. That still needs size and scale and non sleazy branding and non-wankerishness about the way it is marketed.

Maybe

Lifter - being up to get down wink
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Dave of the Marmottes, Think you are right .. Interesting issue is how do you achieve non-wankerishness? Google doesn't give a definition (a good attempt without the word non), but I think we know what you mean!
So for a Ski-Tinder without the wankerishness ...
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@pisteoff,
Shirley one renders the other redundant (and reduces Lemsip costs)
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pisteoff wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, Think you are right .. Interesting issue is how do you achieve non-wankerishness? Google doesn't give a definition (a good attempt without the word non), but I think we know what you mean!
So for a Ski-Tinder without the wankerishness ...


Filtering out w4nk3rs does not require a Tinder-style app, just a block or delete function or "I'm just nipping out for a pee" never to be seen again. The other way is to not have any type of club at all, and you don't need one I can assure you (more below), because clubs do tend to attract people you might not otherwise want to interact with.

Gerry wrote:
The ex-CEO was also a rep. As soon as I got on council I asked to see, amongst other things, the legal advice in full. Access was denied. Pisteoff also asked to see the legal advice in full. Access was denied.

Pisteoff had also asked to see the management accounts. Access was denied, we now know because there were no management accounts and they’d been running things blind  for months, haemorrhaging cash all the while. To cover their tracks they (chair and CEO) even tried to use the Club’s lawyers to stop us finding out the full extent of the damage they’d done!

Actually no excuse. You were/are both Board Directors and carry the legal responsibility that goes with it, therefore, if you were asking for company records you don't take "access denied" for an answer otherwise you cannot fulfil your role. Who exactly denied you access? 

Gerry wrote:
  I’ve done the right thing all they way down the line, always by the book and always with the interests of the club first!

Some argue that your representation of the club on this forum has fallen short of that. I've seen people say they have left 'because of you'. I'll let others fill in the rest.

Gerry wrote:
  In the end the lawyer, who was in London anyway, came in and briefed us. Why should we have taken the word of those two idiots on anything? Personally, I wouldn’t leave either of them in charge of an office raffle.

OK, so you DID get the legal advice albeit verbally. As a Board Director, what do you have to say about Reps who have indicated (above in my previous post), that they intend to continue leading on snow. And I note neither of them have disagreed. After all, when the group is away from the main lifts, the visibility is a bit meh and everything is covered in snow, nobody's going to know are they? Trouble for you is that you are a Director!

Gerry wrote:
  There was no attempt to bring anything under the table. Where did you get the rubbish from? PM me the source.


It's a shame the chat room has been taken down but you would have seen it discussed on there - you might have access to the archive. I think you'll find Pisteoff has also mentioned it on this forum and on Facebook, his ideas about getting leading going again in a different guise. I cannot be bothered to search back and find it all but it's in the clouds somewhere. Frankly, you know damn well that there are long-standing Reps who just want to work around the French legal decision and advice, and get back to the way things were but under the radar. There was a bit of "we won't have Johnny Foreigner tell us what we can or can't do (in their own country Laughing )" in one conversation I had. 

While you are on, what's your view on the role, insurability and legality of a Social Rep - the website seems a bit confusing:
 
Quote:
What is the role of a Social Rep? Once Social Reps have established communication channels with members in resort, the role of the Social Rep will be to arrange and encourage member meet ups in resort. These social activities could be on or off snow and a Social Rep will share their knowledge of the resort with other members. For example, activities could include; social evenings (such as quiz nights), meals, taking part in recreational activities around the resort, being an active user of the Ski Club App or social skiing as a group of friends.
 
What's not required for the Social Rep? The role of a Social Rep does not include “leading” members of snow in any capacity. The Ski Club do not expect for any Social Rep to take on any On-Snow responsibility. 
 

As a Director, how do you feel it's going at the moment? What do you actually talk about in Council meetings? Does anyone get animated about picking the obvious low hanging fruit like getting the website in shape, overhauling the member benefits, properly pricing the holidays, treating Members less like mushrooms, ironing out rep ambiguities etc etc etc. How is the new GM spending his time? What have you got him working on? As it's a Members' club, and not your club, these things shouldn't be state secrets. 

You'll hate this, please take it in the spirit in which it is offered, but I agree with Davina Goldballs and others on a few things - the cornerstone of club activity should be news, information, advice, member communication - but you've handed all that to Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Admin. The very things you need to drive memberships, group skiing and holidays and other services that sustain a business have been given away. You've got involved and bogged-down in back-slappy industry talking shops, meaningless and expensive awards, court cases, industry research and a I'm told even a failed attempt to replace BASI - most things that you might do as a luxury after the hard graft of looking after paying Members is done. There's no need for a Blue Sky Club because it already exists in a disrupted 21st century way - in effect SCGB haplessly created it - you make your own tailored club and it's all there on your phone. Do you think ILG would disappear if the Club disappeared? No, of course not, New Gen and others would see it as an opportunity and you'd just need to book it. What a concept. It's not about money. They'd easily take care of grading people, you'd be on the exact same snow, you'd have the same good time, but no hanger-on wannabe mingled in on a freebie. Who needs their social activities facilitated anyway? It's mad that there is more SCGB news and information on this forum, Facebook and Whatsapp, than there is on the club's own website. The leading you should be concerned about isn't on snow, it's in the boardroom. I see no activity, no energy, no care, no viable future.
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
davidof wrote:

Did you get smoke alarms fitted to grandma's houses before you let it? Are there fire extinguishers on each floor with a safe escape route clearly indicated by emergency lighting?

Do all the Air BnB have those?
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
davidof wrote:

If you are setting up as a tour operator / package holiday vendor then I'd suggest reading the relevant legislation before you do. The "Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018" which is a transposition of the EU directive so will be similar in EU countries, would be a good place to start if you are operating in the UK or EEA or selling packages in those countries.

The question is the other way around, when does a lad's trip become a "TO package"?
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

truth is you need to know resorts if you want to explore all mountain, and that is something the younger generation wants .

That is something every skier wants, whatever their age. (But not everyone know they actually "want" it. Some think it's ok NOT to ski all the mountain has to offer. They just do the same every year...until someone show them what they're missing rolling eyes )

Quote:

in resort snow reports, local knowledge, opportunity to meet up in a new resort, knowledgeable 'leaders', and people to ski with, even when you go somewhere without your own friendship group in tow. I would pay (nothing) to be part of that! ... and happily lead groups in resorts I knew (insurance permitting)

Some goes skiing in order to spend time with their friendship group. And I've come to the realization that's a fairly substantial portion of the skiing public, all age groups.

Ski club, and snowheads, are for those of us who go on ski holiday to SKI. I would PAY to get to parts of the mountain I don't have time to "research" on. Whether that pay is a beer or a lunch or an hour of lesson depends on availability.

Let's be frank, all "clubs" are for billy-no-mates, even if just temporarily. In skiing, or mountain biking which I used to do a lot of, there's a skill level separation when your regular "friendship group" isn't quite suitable. a "club" function as a temporary "friendship group"
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abc wrote:
davidof wrote:

If you are setting up as a tour operator / package holiday vendor then I'd suggest reading the relevant legislation before you do. The "Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018" which is a transposition of the EU directive so will be similar in EU countries, would be a good place to start if you are operating in the UK or EEA or selling packages in those countries.

The question is the other way around, when does a lad's trip become a "TO package"?


The legislation is (fairly!) clear on this - I used to organise club trips, so had to familiarise myself with it. Broadly, there's a safe harbour if its a trip for a group of people who've asked you to organise it. Where it becomes a TO trip is if you put it all together yourself, market it to people, and make profit in the process.

A bunch of mates saying "let's go skiing, Bob why don't you figure out the best place to go and get us some flights and a hotel" isn't a TO package.
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Pruman, we didn’t take ‘access denied’ for an answer, we insisted. We didn’t get management account because there weren’t any, but we got the written legal advice and than a briefing (not asked for by us) which we took time off work (unpaid) to attend.

Quote:
As a Director, how do you feel it's going at the moment? What do you actually talk about in Council meetings?


All the minutes are published and available to members.

Quote:
You've got involved and bogged-down in back-slappy industry talking shops, meaningless and expensive awards, court cases, industry research and a I'm told even a failed attempt to replace BASI


None of that happened when I was involved, except the KP case. I'm not aware of any attempt to replace BASI. The awards thing was arranged by the two we kicked out. It obviously pains you that the finger of blame can't legitimately be pointed at me.

You're a very sad man, John B, in my opinion.

Quote:
It's a shame the chat room has been taken down but you would have seen it discussed on there - you might have access to the archive. I think you'll find Pisteoff has also mentioned it on this forum and on Facebook, his ideas about getting leading going again in a different guise. I cannot be bothered


Finally something we both agree on, you can't be bothered!


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 4-08-21 17:03; edited 1 time in total
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Pruman, strongly worded ... but I largely agree with your points, albeit some clarification (to follow). This thread starts with the premise of the demise of SCGB - you are right, this is in large part because of the failures in the Boardroom. We could debate what went wrong in SCGB and what could be done to turn it around. However after some recent nonsense I have concluded it is a hopeless task, and no longer for me. Good luck to those on Council who still believe
Quote:

. You were/are both Board Directors and carry the legal responsibilities, therefore, if you were asking for company records you don't take "access denied" for an answer otherwise you cannot fulfil your role.
Correct!!! Incredible that the previous Chairman took legal advice (at cost to the Club) to seek to withhold information from new Directors (newly elected despite shenanigans from CEO and old Council who wanted to keep a closed shop) , while losing well over £1m a year, breaching articles to appoint unsuitable CEO on ridiculous salary and not even having management accounts for 12 months ...
For the avoidance of doubt I am no longer a Director of SCGB - in large part because as a Director with relevant experience (unlike most Council appointees) and willing to stand up against this type of nonsense I didn't fit in (sadly the new Chairman falls into the same traps, and Council are again unwilling to provide effective oversight, preferring not to do dirty washing in public - fair enough if you to the laundry behind closed doors, but sadly there is much just hidden). Of course I am not arguing that one person has the answers, but that a Club that fails in governance and fails in accountability to its members has little hope when things go wrong. Given the challenges of a new on-line world Council needs to be bold in addressing how it can again have a thriving membership, its not going to happen. So sadly SCGB seems doomed - if you are on SCGB Council please prove me wrong (not banning me from your own facebook group would be a start - honestly, what on earth!).
Hence the question in this thread - is there something that could take its place?
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Quote:

18th -20th century = Club. 21st century = Community. Of course "community" is a much misused term but I'd say it obviously in this sense isn't a lazy way of referring to a ethnogeographic grouping or a notional set of everyone who has dabbled in a particular thing, but a group of people who have at least one thing in common and at least a curiosity and willingness in exploring whether it can develop…


A Klan?
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Jehu, please go to the members and council Facebook group and ask. I only ever enter ski club debates here to correct inaccurate statements. Even that’s pretty pointless as there are too many very bitter people here who just want to tell lies. Too many prumans who can’t be bothered to check their facts before posting.

It’s almost like pruman thinks he’s the chair of a HoC committee. He ripped into the new Chairman last year for not publishing his report into the losses on time. Bear in mind, this was an unpaid volunteer who had a real world job.

Pruman was a member, yet what did he ever do to assist? What help did he offer? Did he stand for election? No, he couldn’t be bothered.
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Does it matter to rehash the argument of why SCGB failed?

The question is weather a new club be needed and what could it do
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:


@Jehu, please go to the members and council Facebook group and ask

Note that much to Council's shame this group is closed and SCGB Council censors which members are allowed to join in, read and what they may say. SCGB is really going to struggle to change its spots while attacking those that have different ideas as to how members can be best served. It operates as a holiday company, with an inexperienced volunteer board and a loyalty scheme (which you pay to join). Very different to a member centric club in my view.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
abc wrote:
Does it matter to rehash the argument of why SCGB failed?

The question is weather a new club be needed and what could it do


The Ski Club is still going and set to bounce back strongly from the downturn caused by the pandemic.
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
"The Ski Club is still going and set to bounce back strongly from the downturn caused by the pandemic."

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


It had one foot in the air before the pandemic.
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Gerry wrote:
abc wrote:
Does it matter to rehash the argument of why SCGB failed?

The question is weather a new club be needed and what could it do


The Ski Club is still going and set to bounce back strongly from the downturn caused by the pandemic.

Even if that's true rolling eyes rolling eyes rolling eyes it still only serve an aging demographic. ("in 10 year's time, the average age of membership went up by 10 years" Shocked )

The question is still whether a new club is needed for those NOT served by the SCGB. Many argue there's no such need. Whilst others suggest one could succeed if one could come up with a workable modal. Whatever that model, what the new club won't have are the baggage of internal politics of SCGB which clearly nobody "needs". snowHead


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 4-08-21 18:47; edited 1 time in total
snow report



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