 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Guys,
My good friend has started to get into his mountaineering…. He’s never skied before but he’s now thinking that he’s thinking he would like to combine going up with skiing down…..I realise this is going to be a tough ask on the short term…..but what would be the best way of learning to ski off piste from the get go?
My thoughts are that he should get a week of lessons so he’s up and away then just go for it with a week off off piste lessons? Am I way off the mark here?
He’s got good core strength and balance and nothing really fazes him
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 11-09-21 19:05; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Following tracks usually good guidance.*
He's invented a phaser?
* not really.
A good couple of weeks lessons and a good couple weeks off piste lessons and he'll be starting get the idea of how to crack it, if nothing fazes him ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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IMV. He would need a week of Private lessons, On Piste, with a really good Native English Speaker (if that's his language) - and then take the advice of that Instructor.
He needs good basics On Piste (on Piste Skis), which may well take more than a week....before going Off Piste. When the Instructor says he's ready - then Off Piste lessons on some easy to use Freeride Skis.
It may well be possible, but I've never heard of a complete beginner going straight to Off Piste skiing.
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This is a joke, right?
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This isn't quite as cut n dried as might appear at first.
Coming from the holiday-skier's perspective, obviously it takes weeks (and weeks?) of skiing with quite a lot of instruction to gain the experience, technique and mountain awareness to ski off piste safely.
But there are certain transferable skills that can really speed things up - not least the mountain awareness of a mountaineer.
@Scarpa got into skiing (at the first EoSB  ) for this very reason, if I remember correctly. Perhaps he can advise?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Specialk, It sounds like he doesn't want to bother with actual skiing holidays to begin with which I do not think is realistic and in the type of terrain that a mountaineer would travel through would be downright dangerous. You can go for the Andy Kirkpatrick approach for strapping a pair of fat snowblades to your feet and falling down the mountain but even he now admits that travelling on skis is more fun if you can actually ski https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/approachskis
You really can't skip learning to ski on piste first, apart from anything, when on a skiing holiday you could rack up 10,000m vertical a day, whereas a mountaineer would be more likely to be in the region of 1000m per day which roughly translates to 10x the learning when on a ski holiday. Having said that, here are some tips to speed up the progression from beginner to competent off piste skier:
1) Be fit. The fitter you are and the stronger your legs are the more practice you can get in per day. Strong thighs can also compensate for poor technicque to an extent in poor snow. Obviously you don't want to be replying on this or reinforcing bad habits but skiing backseat for a section of heavy/wet snow is preferable/safer to falling over several times because your technique isn't quite there. Rowing machines probably give the best cross over leg strength, cycling good for building all day endurance. As a very crude estimate, I would say that it if you can do a 2k erg test in 7:30 then your fitness has reached the point where it is a not limiting factor, if your friend can't do that and is serious about fast tracking his way to ski mountaineering competency then I would suggest sorting that first as that can be dealt with in the UK.
2) Don't skimp on lessons. A week of half day private lessons for his first week would be ideal, failing that, as many lessons as he can afford
3) Own a pair of proper off piste skis. Skiing off piste is hugely easier on dedicated skis and it can be difficult hiring them in resort. Something like the Rossignol Soul 7 would be ideal. You don’t want to learn on piste on these though so he would also want to hire (no real need to buy) piste skis as well
As with most things is life, if you want to expediate it, you’ve got to throw money at it
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^that
do you really want to be learning to ski where your life may literally depend on it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have had several climbing friends who got into skiing from there.
They all learnt to ski the same way holiday skiers do - some tuition and lots of practice on the dry slope.
Mostly they have ended up as effective rather than stylish skiers, I think because that's as far as their ambitions go, for skiing.
I don't know anyone who went straight to off piste other than very rich people who often learn from rented helicopters.
I'd use the "nothing fazes him" attitude the other way: go to some holiday ski resorts. Drink beer and meet girls.
At the same time work hard on learning how to ski... until you can at least safely ride everything at the resort.
Learning to ride roped up and other mountaineering-specific stuff you can either pick up from competent
mates or take specific tuition on. But you want to be learning how to turn at a ski resort, with other beginners.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Drink beer and meet girls .... until you can at least safely ride everything at the resort. |
Snigger snigger 
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You know it makes sense.
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Why doesn't he go to an indoor ski slope in UK (or wherever) to get the basics.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think the assumption when many hear mountaineering is some kind of extreme Chamonix style ski descent, however that doesn't have to be the case. Makes a huge difference if his goals are to ski well and/or extreme terrain or if it's just an option to get down a little quicker/easier when the right terrain presents itself.
I guess the normal route is learning on piste and it does have its advantages: lift served means more vertical so more practice per hour and the grooming makes things easier. However, there are also places around the world where there are no lifts and kids learn off-piste straight away.
My advice would be have a few lessons in a fridge to get the very bbasics then head out to North America as you can ski lift served in bounds off-piste all day without the need for guides or aworrying about avalanche danger t
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Poster: A snowHead
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If it’s not off piste it doesn’t count as real skiing. Good on your friend for going for the real stuff straight away. Just learn the key safety information and gradually build up experience but remember there’s always risks outside your control
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ionizingskin, sorry but that is just patronising. People enjoy skiing in all forms and whether you are happy to stick to greens, want to improve or only go out on powder days doesn't make you any more or less a real skier
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is your friend absolutely crazy????
It takes ages to become a good off-piste skier.
But to get the the point where you can ride a snowboard off piste takes considerably less time.
Given that his mountain skills and safety knowledge, risk assessment is the same whether he's on one plank or 2, why not just go for boarding instead ?
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Because skis are a much better tool for backcountry travel than split boards?
Plenty of people have done the transition from mountaineer to ski mountaineer with minimal ski time in the past. The results aren’t necessarily pretty but it isn’t necessarily the recipe for CERTAIN DEATH that some people seem to think. It’s more a recipe for testing your friends’ patience because you can’t buy a turn in anything less than perfect conditions
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think skiers approach this question from the wrong preconception that it's about skiing well and enjoying the down. True winter mountaineers are definitely about the up and the down is just a matter of expedience hence any old agricultural style will do.
I'd recommend Andy at https://scotmountainholidays.com/ for a weekender trip to try out skis on the up and down
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I think skiers approach this question from the wrong preconception that it's about skiing well and enjoying the down. True winter mountaineers are definitely about the up and the down is just a matter of expedience hence any old agricultural style will do. |
True to an extent, but if (for example) a winter mountaineer can't keep their skis going straight while executing effective kick-turns as required, some agricultural styles might not get them off of a hill with 500 metres vertical of breaking crust until well after dark, or without breaking some useful bit of their body !
P.S. I don't think I know the person you linked to, but since Scottish conditions are often some of the most trying anywhere, ski mountaineering coaching here can be amazingly 'educational'. Unfortunately, the wind can also be so ferocious that even the hardiest of ski mountaineering instructors call off their courses at short notice, and the presence of good snow isn't predictable enough to plan far ahead for.
P.P.S. Did your car get sorted ?
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@welshskier, too polite I fear 
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| Arno wrote: |
| Because skis are a much better tool for backcountry travel than split boards? |
Top tip for touring on skis with a split boarder; take a good book because you'll have plenty of time at the top waiting for them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| Because skis are a much better tool for backcountry travel than split boards? |
Top tip for touring on skis with a split boarder; take a good book because you'll have plenty of time at the top waiting for them. |
As a split boarder I'm pretty aware of the limitations. Going up isn't one of them! Perhaps the split boarders you have toured with were just very unfit.
The big limitation in terms of speed is a ski out that has a mixture of flats and downhill. Skiers can just be in downhill mode and pole the flats.
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@boarder2020, I think @Dr John, might be referring to the inordinate amount of time a Splitboarder can take to put his board back together, especially if it's Uber cold and windy.
Even good touring Splitboarders / boarders can have difficulties going up if it involves steep icy traverses trying to follow skiers skin tracks, invarably their better taking their own line.
Majority of boarders, unless your name is JJ tend to frequent the powder in the glades, or case in point of the feckin Muppet of a guide we had in Japan who used snowshoes* who took a line that suited him, in the end I ignored him and broke trail.
*or he chose to trash a decent skin track with him expecting us to follow in his holes!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
Plenty of people have done the transition from mountaineer to ski mountaineer with minimal ski time in the past. |
It can be done.
However to become a good skier you need to spend time on uplift.
In my experience the "mountaineer types" learn how to make a plough-parallel turn then head off into back-country.
For sure - they can use skis as a tool for moving about mountain. They can kind of turn if the snow is good.
But : its hard to learn how to become a good skier if you are just ski-touring.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^^^ cf Alex Honnold on the latest Fifty episode 
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
....
But : its hard to learn how to become a good skier if you are just ski-touring..... |
That's because they're faffing with maps n'compasses
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| But : its hard to learn how to become a good skier if you are just ski-touring. |
True for the ski-lift age, but it's all relative e.g. the prototypal Nordic ski instructor cave man/woman with sticks and leather lashings didn't have any groomed snow to perfect their turns on, nor any ski lifts to take aspiring NASI novices up the hill with. Isn't it possible (or likely even) that when the going got tough, they'd still do better than a lot of ski-lift age Brits whose skiing experience has been a few hours a day for a week every year, noodling around Alpine resort pistes in search of the perfect hot chocolate ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| moffatross wrote: |
| noodling around Alpine resort pistes in search of the perfect hot chocolate ? |
Damn. I've been rumbled.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Weathercam wrote: |
@boarder2020, I think @Dr John, might be referring to the inordinate amount of time a Splitboarder can take to put his board back together, especially if it's Uber cold and windy.
Even good touring Splitboarders / boarders can have difficulties going up if it involves steep icy traverses trying to follow skiers skin tracks, invarably their better taking their own line.
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All of the above
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| telford_mike wrote: |
| moffatross wrote: |
| noodling around Alpine resort pistes in search of the perfect hot chocolate ? |
Damn. I've been rumbled. |
Haha ! Nothing wrong with hot chocolate  And as @Haggis_Trap knows, I look like a bag of spanners when I ski, but I know a few folk who fit the description of highly experienced, piste-only, hot chocolate holiday skiers who, whenever their planks are on ice, powder or gloop, go into panic mode.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@abc, yeah, it's bollox, I started skiing off piste in my first week in Tignes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Layne, I'm sure you did. But does that mean you dabbled a bit between pistes, or did you walk up a bit and go down Borsat North, or did you put skis on your back, hike for 30 minutes and throw yourself down Mikeys/Pisteurs, or skin for 4 hours solid uphill to Pointe de la Sana? My point is all of those 4 options are "off piste" to varying degrees. Skiing off-piste in the first week of skiing can be easy and fun, or can be bloody difficult and potentially lethal, depends where you are, who you are with, what your ability is and what the conditions are like. Talking about off-piste without context is ridiculous. It's like talking about piste skiing without recognising the difference between a soft green and an icey black. Pointless and dangerous.
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@Dr John, well I was seconding a comment made by abc in response to WindOfChange - simple as.
Yeah of course context is important in broader terms of the discussion but not in terms of WindOfChange's comment. WoC said "Is your friend absolutely crazy????" - well, read the OP post - what do you think - does Specialk or his mate seem crazy to you? Well they certainly don't to me. And then he follows it up with "It takes ages to become a good off-piste skier." Well duh, yeah, it takes ages to be good at pretty much anything worthwhile doing. But that wasn't the question in hand. The OP asked "My thoughts are that he should get a week of lessons so he’s up and away then just go for it with a week off off piste lessons? Am I way off the mark here?" Well, of course he isn't way off the mark. In fact, my instructor took us off the side of the piste into powder/crud on day 3/4. And in the afternoon I started dabbling with my more experienced (but not vastly experienced) mate.
And anyway, so I am not disagreeing with you. And I'm not sure you are disagreeing with me.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| telford_mike wrote: |
| moffatross wrote: |
| noodling around Alpine resort pistes in search of the perfect hot chocolate ? |
Damn. I've been rumbled. |
Haha ! Nothing wrong with hot chocolate And as @Haggis_Trap knows, I look like a bag of spanners when I ski, but I know a few folk who fit the description of highly experienced, piste-only, hot chocolate holiday skiers who, whenever their planks are on ice, powder or gloop, go into panic mode. |
That sounds like…. Almost everyone!
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I think quite a few aspirant mountain guides get their skiing from nothing to highly functional off piste as quickly as they can. I still think it tends to take a few weeks of training and practice. And these people have a fair amount of athletic talent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi my background is climbing, mountaineering, boarding and skiing.
For me it kind of depends on their goals and what type of mountaineering they are in to, as to the level of skiing required and how long it takes to get there can be different. This is a common questions from mountaineers and ice climbers.
If they are thinking summer alpine type routes or Scottish winter routes up gully’s and snow ramps (the kind of stuff you do with 1 axe). Well this doesn’t really happen in the winter in the alps. This just falls under ski touring, the snow is deep so you access on skis and climb as much as you can on skis, boot if you have to and then ski down, its a ski touring day not a climbing day really. With this in mind they will be learning just like everyone, it comes down to time on skis, as others have said a few trips on lift’s will give them lots of time on skis and if they can afford it some lessons will stop bad habit developing which will take a lot longer to get rid of if ingrained. You can just learn straight on touring but it will take a lot longer.
Example I have a friend who is the same position, he moved out to the alps start of last winter (he had done some touring in Scotland but not a lot) No lifts last year so straight to touring. The first tour 1200m up he flew up super fit, but on the descent he was falling every other turn and by the end was broken so tired that he had to sit down every time he stopped. He had the season to improve and did, but if you only have a week or to every year it's a hard way to learn.
If they are looking at more technical mountaineering such as ice climbing and mixed lines, (two axe stuff) and they just want to ski to the route, climb it then ski back down, then for me its a lot less time, The goal is not the skiing but the climbing and they just need to survive the descent. So they can just learn to stem turn and just use that, you see quite a few people out skiing this way just to access stuff its not pretty but works. normally we just ice climb in our ski boots to save the faff of bringing extra boots, this takes a bit of getting used to.
As a side note about avalanche awareness, people assume climbers already know a lot about this, not always. No real issues with avalanche on summer alps snow lines, and in Scotland climber tend to use the forecast but don’t carry transceivers and probes etc, so some extra training in this maybe needed?
Feel free to get them to drop me a line if they have questions. rob@ecrinscollective.com
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| jedster wrote: |
| I think quite a few aspirant mountain guides get their skiing from nothing to highly functional off piste as quickly as they can. I still think it tends to take a few weeks of training and practice. And these people have a fair amount of athletic talent. |
For the British mountain guides (and most other guides schemes) you need to be able to ski before you are allowed to start on the scheme.
Skiing entry requirements for British Mountain Guides - Provide details of skiing ability on and off-piste including a minimum of thirty listed days of ski-mountaineering experience in glaciated Alpine terrain. Fifteen days or more of the thirty listed days must be linked days consisting of at least three consecutive nights in huts on recognised tours. Ski touring and skiing expeditions outside of Europe will be considered but the majority of ski-touring experience must be in the European Alps. Applicants are expected to ski all pisted runs with good style and demonstrate good balance, posture and control whilst skiing linked-parallel turns of varying radius. Applicants should cope well in all off-piste conditions showing the ability to ski safely, effectively and in control.
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