Since I've started skiing, I've wanted to properly ski off-piste, but I've never been able to be bothered to put in the effort to learn avy safety in order to actually ski off-piste, but after a recent trip to Andermatt, and long bouts of staring desperately at the freeride terrain, I've decided to really put in the effort and learn as much safety info as you can over the summer, so I can begin to safely freeride this coming winter, but I really don't know where to begin with it. I would very, very much appreciate any help where to start. (Apologies if I'm just another ultimately doomed village idiot stupidly attempting to ski off-piste.)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Here are some aspects to read up and think about:
Safety equipment you need: the basic pack you need is transceiver, probe and shovel. You will want to read up on the what is better (metal rather plastic shovel for example) and how this equipment is used. You will also want to practice using these both at home and in the field. I don't have one but you may want to look at flotation/airbag devices.
Understanding the factors that influence the likelihood of avalanches occurring - the Snowpack, Terrain and Weather. Read up and understand the aspects and influence of each. And how that would effect what you ski and when.
Think about who you will be skiing with and make sure that they are equally equipped and knowledgeable.
People are naturally a bit reticent to give out loads of info on their favourite lines for various reasons but if you dig around, ask nicely you can garner some good information. It does help if you go to the same ski area a few times as you can build up a bit of a knowledge base.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Decide what type of skiing off piste you want to do.... lift assisted or touring? Read the books, take a course, hire a guide and pump him/her for insights, scour the internet, make sure you have all the equipment, ski with more experienced people if you can, take careful note of the on line avalanche forecasts on the days you ski. In the end, you have to put in the work...
@Jakey, Shame I left Lucca or I'd say pop over and I'll show you the basics of Transceivers! There are plenty of 1 day intro courses out there but do read up first. https://henrysavalanchetalk.com/ is another good site for the basics but there's no substitute for the practical element. Shovel, Probe and Transceiver are the essential bits of kit but I suggest you go and try out with hire kit first and find something you're comfortable with.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Jakey,
In addition to what others have said about avi equipment, taking avi courses and reading books / daily avalanche reports - I'd recommend spending time with a guide so you can learn from him/her. The guides can also help with technique and have a knack of finding the best powder to ski. Off piste etiquette such as correct spacing, route choice (ascending and descending) and where is best to stop are IMHO best learnt this way.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hi,
Couple of things for you to think about, first off its worth think about avalanche safety in two parts, I call them the tool box and the first aid kit.
The tool box is all the stuff you do to avoid being caught in a avalanche such as.
understanding the forecast - avalanche and weather.
understanding what the weather does to the snow pack.
avalanche terrain
group dynamics
route finding
safe riding techniques etc the list goes on.
The first aid kit is the stuff you need if someone gets caught in an avalanche
Transceiver work.
probing.
Digging.
and first aid.
how to get help etc.
I think its important to recognise this, as quite a lot of people think avalanche safety is just about practicing with a transceiver and digging, now don't get me wrong it's a very important skill as we all can make mistakes. But the goal is to not end up with someone in an avalanche to start with.
For learning in summer its going to be reading, someone has already mentioned Bruce's book its very good, but also look online there are lots of free online courses that will help with your understanding. There is also this paid course - https://www.mtnsense.com/p/backcountry-skiing-avalanche-course I haven't done it so can't really offer feedback but Marc does know his stuff.
At the end of the day reading and online won't beat real world practice, so look at booking a course, add it to the start of a weeks skiing. look at getting out with more experienced people, but check they are experienced not just some guy in the pub telling you they are an expert. Ask lots of questions helps you learn don't just follow.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ecrinscollective, great post
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Thanks very very much for all the responses, I think I'll read up as best I can on avy safety over the summer and learn the theory part off by heart, then I'll book a safety course in the winter, and get in some serious practice. I think my local resorts off-piste club offer avy courses.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Good luck - this site is ok for summer reading - https://kbyg.org
Definitely get some training and know what you don’t know.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thanks for a helpful thread, I've found a lot of useful info here!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Most important is to learn about avalanche building factors in conditions, weather, snowpack and terrain.
It takes time and commitment, to acquire cross-linked cognition of avalanche building factors and to train thinking in propabilities, and best practices in decision making.
It is very important to learn and implement functional risk management and decision making system, like using 3 x 3 risk management and getting to know a graphical reduction method.
Furthermore it should be mandatory in the first place, to tour, where there is a local snow pack report published, to get oneself trained in planning, to carry transceiver, shovel and probe, and to tour with experienced folks in the first place.
What also helps structurally:
- Plan the terrain, route and conditions excessively from home
- Select terrain and routes, that are widely known for relative low risk potential
- Select only the safest conditions in the beginning, procure high quality condition reports of any and every kind
- Repeat the same tours, so that you begin to know the terrain by heart
- Repeat the same tours, watching conditions ands weather over time, so that you begin to amass knowledge of the currently building snow pack and every implication concerning avalanche building factors in that spot
Better plan, execute and evaluate 20 than 5 tours, and better plan, execute and evaluate 100 than 20 tours for starters. Than you will begin to learn.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@trettach77, welcome to snowheads and a great first post contribution.
@Jakey, always good to have a partner you can trust, work with and learn from, I find being in a group setting there will always be a question or a viewpoint that others will have that you never considered.
Staying alive in avalanche terrain is the bible as BobinCH poster earlier, hope you had a good summer of reading and stay safe and enjoy the winter!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Jakey,
Not sure how it is where you are but here in Austria you can buy ski touring atlases.
https://shop.falter.at/detail/9783900533946/schitouren-atlas-oesterreich-ost?ref=785&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr6PsqbGc9AIVlO7tCh3-FAbDEAQYASABEgJpxPD_BwE
They show the routes and give an indication of the overall avalanche risk plus which particular aspects are exposed to risk on the ascent and descent (e.g. Ascent : S-SW slopes, Descent : SW-S slopes). You can then use the avalanche report to mitigate risk by picking certain tours.
I would advise you to use a mapping tool (e.g. Komoot or similar) and a GPS watch which is easier than pulling the phone out every 5 mins to help you navigate. Always have a map and compass as backup though.
Be careful of just picking GPS ski touring tracks up from the internet as they could be very risky routes although often the same routes in the atlas/guides are on the internet too (so saves you having to plot a track on the mapping app).
Always look on the map to see if there is shelter along the route just in case the weather changes for the worse or someone gets injured and you need to get them out of the cold.
Save the emergency numbers into your phone.
Mountain rescue service: 140.
European emergency: 112
Have fun !
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
trettach77 wrote:
Most important is to learn about avalanche building factors in conditions, weather, snowpack and terrain.
It takes time and commitment, to acquire cross-linked cognition of avalanche building factors and to train thinking in propabilities, and best practices in decision making.
It is very important to learn and implement functional risk management and decision making system, like using 3 x 3 risk management and getting to know a graphical reduction method.
Furthermore it should be mandatory in the first place, to tour, where there is a local snow pack report published, to get oneself trained in planning, to carry transceiver, shovel and probe, and to tour with experienced folks in the first place.
What also helps structurally:
- Plan the terrain, route and conditions excessively from home
- Select terrain and routes, that are widely known for relative low risk potential
- Select only the safest conditions in the beginning, procure high quality condition reports of any and every kind
- Repeat the same tours, so that you begin to know the terrain by heart
- Repeat the same tours, watching conditions ands weather over time, so that you begin to amass knowledge of the currently building snow pack and every implication concerning avalanche building factors in that spot
Better plan, execute and evaluate 20 than 5 tours, and better plan, execute and evaluate 100 than 20 tours for starters. Than you will begin to learn.
great post！
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If you can find a copy then buy this book...
Avalanche safety gets all the attention as skill you need to learn.
However to be safe also need to know how to:
- navigate / read a map
- interpret weather forecast
- plan a route
- basic mountaineering skills
<etc>
The Jimmy Oden book contains easily the best section on decision making in my small library of Avi books. Much of the work on this when I first got interested in avalanche conditions focused a lot on snow science but was less strong on where to actually go skiing. I found the Freeskiing book immensely useful.
Also a lot of time for Powder guide: Managing Avalanche Risk due to its treatment of the Munter 3x3 and reduction methods in English. My German is pretty bad.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
gorilla wrote:
The Jimmy Oden book contains easily the best section on decision making in my small library of Avi books. Much of the work on this when I first got interested in avalanche conditions focused a lot on snow science but was less strong on where to actually go skiing. I found the Freeskiing book immensely useful.
Also a lot of time for Powder guide: Managing Avalanche Risk due to its treatment of the Munter 3x3 and reduction methods in English. My German is pretty bad.
That is a good point : a lot of avalanche books focus on snow science (crystals / temp gradients) rather than decision making in field.
@Jakey, at least you're thinking about it, I like possibly others skied/boarded off-piste, admittedly a good number of years ago, before security was ever front of mind.
Sometimes we'd hear whoompfs and not realise what they were!
However, once you've been in one and had a lucky escape, that tends to concentrate the mind.
And that's from someone that did a week-long intense Avalanche Course, and passed
My focus pretty well now (sans guide), especially touring is to ski not greater than 25% and/or be very very aware of your terrain.
Even then every season I see activity on slopes that I maybe have never seen before.
Also now ties in quite well with my vintage
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Here’s some tips from someone with a bit of experience
Or turn your phones / GoPros off which they are all wearing etc etc
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
BobinCH wrote:
Here’s some tips from someone with a bit of experience
I thought that was good.
Before someone points it out, of course the mountain doesn't know you're an expert.
I think their point about VHF radios and general group stuff is often missed.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB wrote:
http://youtube.com/v/29t4CAKvFTQ
All good, then the skier at 7:55 doesn't have any avi gear with him...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
adithorp wrote:
DB wrote:
http://youtube.com/v/29t4CAKvFTQ
All good, then the skier at 7:55 doesn't have any avi gear with him...
Certainly no back pack so no shovel & probe but would expect him to have a transceiver. Looks like a beginner so probably wouldn‘t know what to do with a shovel & probe anyway. Did you have the holy trinity & know how to use them the first time you went off piste?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
Did you have the holy trinity & know how to use them the first time you went off piste?
No but that wasn't really my point. It just seemed not the best footage to use in a video specifically about avi safety.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
adithorp wrote:
DB wrote:
http://youtube.com/v/29t4CAKvFTQ
All good, then the skier at 7:55 doesn't have any avi gear with him...
Certainly no back pack so no shovel & probe but would expect him to have a transceiver. Looks like a beginner so probably wouldn‘t know what to do with a shovel & probe anyway. Did you have the holy trinity & know how to use them the first time you went off piste?
I did. I would say it's good thing to do it, and to get proper equipment and proper training BEFORE you head out. Something bad can just as easily happen when you go out for first time, as it could when you go out for 1000s time. Honestly, it can actually happen easier when you go out first time, as you have no experience and don't even know how real danger is.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@primoz,
Yes I agree with that. Suspect the guy was a beginner in a larger group of more experienced people including a guide who had the full equipment and so he only had a transceiver. There was a lot of good info in that clip, just find it a shame that people are concentrating on a small negative point right at the end.
Digging after an avalanche is an art all in itself which is worth learning. Plastic shovels aren‘t up to the job when the snow is anything but fluffy (most of the time).
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
